Installing Kadee Couplers using Mario's( CentralFan1976 ) Shapeway products: update 27 Oct MTH GP30

Looks good.  Nice work!

Hi / Like the project / but I do have several questions.

Does the MTH GP7 & 9, have scale wheels? Do you have a transition car, one end Kadee and one end standard couplers? If you have a photo, please show.

One issue with Kadee on the locos, MTH / DCS remote control does not work. Is there a way to solve this issue?

Thank-you for your military service / Gary

trainroomgary posted:

Hi / Like the project / but I do have several questions.

Does the MTH GP7 & 9, have scale wheels? All my engines are Hi Rail, Most of my Premier are 2/3 rail capable Hi Rail . As for the MTH GP7/9s I haven't gotten to them yet. The only GP9s that have been done so far are my Lionel NP GP9s of which Mario's mounts were designed for. I have 5 MTH GP7/9s CB&Q) and 2 Atlas( ATSF) before all my GP9/7s are done.  Right now I would say about over half of my CB&Q roster and a third of my GN roster has been converted. Since for now I am only doing copular conversion's and not fixing the pilots yet. It doesn't take long for the conversion. Painting and prepping the kd mounts is the longest part of the process. 

Do you have a transition car, one end Kadee and one end standard couplers? If you have a photo, please show.

I have two transition cars left.  Almost all of my rolling stock has been converted.  Ones a Weaver the other is a Atlas. The KD 804s/805s will latch onto the Atlas and Lionel claw couplers with out any issue. Anything connecting to an MTH product will need a transition car as for some reason the 804/5 will not stay attached.  I post pic tomorrow of my transition cars.

One issue with Kadee on the locos, MTH / DCS remote control does not work. Is there a way to solve this issue?

Other than when you do the conversion, you no longer have the remote coupler function on the engines. I have never had any issue running DCS or TMCC with my engines equipped with Kadees.  

Thank-you for your military service / Gary

Nicely done!! Just ordered some Lionel GPx mounts!! Which Kadee couplers did you use on the Geeps?? Will 805s work??

I used the 740s, but the 805s use the same box, I believe. 

Good luck!  This is the fun part. 

In case you missed it, here's the finished GP30. 

And the RS-1. 

Oh, since these are designed for use for use with the stock pilots, like Suzkovich is doing, the coupler heights should be at the correct height. 

We call this "TalgO scale" style. Basically Kadees on swinging pilots. Best of both worlds! Tight radii and scale couplers!

Mario

Thanks for posting the finished GP30 and RS1. Yep I missed it but great work.

suzukovich posted:

Mario

Thanks for posting the finished GP30 and RS1. Yep I missed it but great work.

Hey, you're leading this parade now! And you're doing fantastic, ground breaking work!  A whole aspect of modeling. 

I have a question. With the kaydee couplers mounted on engines with swinging pilots. What is the tightest radius of curve track that can be used? Also does the length of the engine also matter when considering tight radius curves? 

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

I have a question. With the kaydee couplers mounted on engines with swinging pilots. What is the tightest radius of curve track that can be used? Also does the length of the engine also matter when considering tight radius curves? 

I'm probably not the one to be answering this, but in my research,  there are some u tube videos showing how to 'notch' the front of the coupler boxes to allow for more coupler swing.. This may only apply to rolling stock, however...

PT 2 was the Weaver RS11

PT 3 is the Lionel legacy NP GP7/9 that started this all.

Part List: Kadee #740/805/745  medium center shank with metal or plastic Gearbox

https://www.shapeways.com/prod...ou?optionId=57308322

This was also a straight forward install. Also as a note if your are going to fix the pilots you will need to remove the coupler mount and the pilot mounts. You will also need this part Lionel O scale EMD GP7/GP9 front / rear pilot spacer  .       https://www.shapeways.com/prod...ac?optionId=57308326

  Once again I drilled the holes in the pilot using the GP9 mounts as a guide insuring the front was flush with the front of the pilot.. ( note you will also need to remove the coupler mount) Or you can do what I did position it a little forward as I was concerned about clearance issues. This proved to be a none issue and will reposition at a later date. Yes this is a learning process. Because I wasn't fixing the pilots I did have to trim the mount on the sides to clear the pilot mounts on the truck assemblies. After that I assembled the and installed the kadees into the mounts and painted them black to match the pilots.

Before

After

Again, very nice work!! So, I need a coupler spacer also for the Geeps?? Do you have a part number?? Your second link didn't work..

Woodson posted:

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

I have a question. With the kaydee couplers mounted on engines with swinging pilots. What is the tightest radius of curve track that can be used? Also does the length of the engine also matter when considering tight radius curves? 

I'm probably not the one to be answering this, but in my research,  there are some u tube videos showing how to 'notch' the front of the coupler boxes to allow for more coupler swing.. This may only apply to rolling stock, however...

https://www.youtube.com/user/Laidoffsick/videos   This is the expert. If links don't work just highlight anf right click.

Woodson posted:

Again, very nice work!! So, I need a coupler spacer also for the Geeps?? Do you have a part number?? Your second link didn't work..

 If links don't work just highlight and right click.

Ok, I think I have everything that I need ordered.. When I start my conversions, I'll document my progress from a 'newbie' stand point.. Thanks again for sharing your information!!!

More info:

https://ogrforum.com/t...d-kadee-mount-insert

I also have step-by-step photos that I can post... 

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

I have a question. With the kaydee couplers mounted on engines with swinging pilots. What is the tightest radius of curve track that can be used? Also does the length of the engine also matter when considering tight radius curves? 

Here's an Atlas RS-1 with fixed pilots and a reefer on O36. I do not recommend this, but with swinging pilots and Kadees, I think I'd be no problem. 

trainroomgary posted:

Hi / Like the project / but I do have several questions.

 Do you have a transition car, one end Kadee and one end standard couplers? If you have a photo, please show.

 

Gary as requested.

All my rolling stock is scale. I can not tell you if the below methods will work with 027/nonscale equipment. Although I would think that methods for S Scale might apply.  Happy Fathers day.

1st one is a Weaver PS1 40ft box car

Claw side

Kadee side

On all my Weavers I use SAE Flat washers #8 as this gives the clearance for the Hi rail wheel sets  

Atlas PS1 40ft

With this on just remove the coupler from one truck assembly

Kadee install:  in this case its an Kadee 805. I replaced the original shim with one of Marios shims which gave a better fit.   

https://www.shapeways.com/prod...ck?optionId=57308217

  Kadee 805/804 connected to the Atlas Claw coupler.

Here's some pictures of the designs, incase anyone wants to make their own.

Legend:

• A - Atlas
• L - Lionel
• M - MTH
• W - Weaver
• C - Coupler
• P - Pilot
• F - Front
• R - Rear
• SR - Steel Reefer
• RTB - Round Top Boxcar (Also fit scale Stock Cars)

PT 4 is the MTH Premier SD24. CB&Q #515 nonpowered and #506 Powered

Mario AKA  CentralFan1976   ( https://www.shapeways.com/shops/gandyman ) sells Lionel Kadee mounts on Shapeways for GP7/9, GP30, and GP40s. After I installed them on a pair of Lionel GP9s. The good idea fairy set in and I decided to do an install on a MTH GP35.

The purpose of this thread and others, is to show how adapt his products for other uses.

A couple of things to note. If you plan on fixing the pilots you will need to mount a spacer between the frame and the pilot.  You will also have to remove the coupler mounts from the trucks.

Part List: #743 Type E Couplers Short Centerset with Short Plastic Gearbox
https://www.shapeways.com/product/GF...ionId=57308322

Plastruct: 3.2mm x6.4 mm and 1.5 mm x 4.0 mm Styrene Strip 

The first SD 24 was a MTH Non powered unit

I had to modify the Lionel Kadee mounts to fit the opening in the MTH Pilots. In this case I used the GP9 mounts. Since the mounts actually fit the opening in the pilot but don't fit flush. Some modifications were needed.

I needed to reduce the width. So I pulled out my dremel  and started sanding down the sides and back just as in the SD45. Once done I needed to make a new pilot face building up the sides and then the bottom of the Kadee mount.  I cut 4 pieces of  1.5 mm x 4.0 mm Styrene Strip about 1in long and glued them on the sides. perpendicular to the holes. 

I then did another fit test to insure it face was even with the rest of the pilot. 

Once satisfied, They were primed and installed into the pilot using the predrilled kadee holes in the pilot.  Once that was done, I did two things.  Used filler on the front of the pilot to fill in any gaps and glued a piece of 3.2mm x6.4 mm Styrene Strip cut to one inch and sanded down until it was it was snug on the bottom of the pilot.

I then  set it at an angle covering up the bottom gap

Once I sanded down the front of the pilot it was reassembled and off to paint.

While the paint was drying. I went a head and removed the couplar mounts on the truck assemblies with my dremel .

  Once the paint was dry, I remounted the pilots onto the trucks. 

CB&Q # 515 as modified

For CB&Q #506  I used the same process but with some changes.

With the coupler mount. I decided to sand down and round off the front of the coupler mount.

Once done, Installed the mount and coupler into the pilot. Used filler and then sanded. Once completed, pilot was reassembled and painted. 

 While the paint was drying. This time I only sanded down the coupler mounts on the powered truck assemblies. Basically flattening out the rounded edge to insure there was enough room to clear the Kadee mount.      

Once again reinstalled the pilots and reassembled the engine.

Note: Earlier Premier SD24 had the same trucks that can be found on the RK SD9 and RK SD45s You could do one of two things. Order from MTH the current Premier pilots or drill out the holes for the Kadee mount. With 743s you do not need to do anything else as the Pilots will mount without any issues on the older style powered trucks

CB&Q #506 as modified.

Notice the diference between #515 and #506s coupler mounts

MTH SD24 CB&Q #506 and #515 back on home turf.

Any questions?

Just a fantastic job. Congrats!

CentralFan1976 posted:

Just a fantastic job. Congrats!

Thanks.  What I am doing is nothing compared to Doug, others on this forum, and yourself have done.. As you can see for #506 as promised the complete face lift of your mount.

PT 5 is the Lionel U30C CB&Q/C&S #891 with TMCC and Odyssey one

Mario AKA  CentralFan1976   ( https://www.shapeways.com/shops/gandyman ) sells Lionel Kadee mounts on Shapeways for GP7/9, GP30, and GP40s. After I installed them on a pair of Lionel GP9s. The good idea fairy set in and I decided to do an install on a MTH GP35.

The purpose of this thread , is to show how adapt his products for other then their intended uses.

A couple of things to note. If you plan on fixing the pilots you will need to mount a spacer between the frame and the pilot.  You will also have to remove the coupler mounts from the trucks.

Part List: #743 Type E Couplers Short Centerset with Short Plastic Gearbox

Lionel O scale EMD SD40-2 pilot Kadee coupler mount

Plastruct:  1.5 mm x 4.0 mm Styrene Strip  and 040"/1.0mm styrene sheet

 Coupler  assembly the same as above with the other engines.

Building the pilot was different from the others.  In this case I used the SD40-2 mount.  Since the mount was smaller then the opening, I had to do a few things first.   I cut two strips from the 040"/1.0mm styrene sheet styrene sheet and glued them to the side of the Kadee mount then trimmed and sanded to fit. This filled the side gap and also helped center it.  I drilled the holes using the mount as my template.

Unlike the other engines where the mount was already at the correct height . This time I needed to do additional shimming. I cut three one inch strips of styrene using  1.5 mm x 4.0 mm Styrene Strip sanding the ends to fit width of the gap.  I placed the first two strips on the pilot on each side of the holes and placed the Kadee mount assembly on the two strips centered on the holes.  Screwed them in place.  I took the third strip and then used it to fill the gap between the mount and the bottom of the pilot.

Then filled in the gaps with filler and sanded, primed and then painted.

The finished product

With the SD24 back on home turf.

Awesome!

now I have to start looking for a U30C to convert to a U30B...

Why must you give me more work?

That will be an easy kit bash..    MTH or Weaver U25B frame and components and either MTH or Lionel U30C Shell. Also remember that Most U28Cs were upgraded to U30Bs. Or you could be real lazy and by an Atlas U23B and make the adjustments.  The NYC Engine pic is an U28C that was upgraded.  Now if you really want work, Kit bash a U25C or U28C PH1!!!

  Kit Bash U30B. I still need to replace the number boards and number the sides.

U25C

PT 6 is the CB&Q Weaver U25B and CB&Q U30B project 

Mario AKA  CentralFan1976   ( https://www.shapeways.com/shops/gandyman ) sells Lionel Kadee mounts on Shapeways for GP7/9, GP30, and GP40s. After I installed them on a pair of Lionel GP9s. The good idea fairy set in and I decided to do an install on a MTH GP35.

The purpose of this thread , is to show how adapt his products for other then their intended uses.

A couple of things to note. If you plan on fixing the pilots you will need to mount a spacer between the frame and the pilot.  You will also have to remove the coupler mounts from the trucks.

 This will apply to Weaver U25B pilots. Since the U30B used a Weaver U25B frame/trucks/motors/and pilots, same method applies. Parts List

Part List: Kadee#740 Type E Couplers Medium Centerset with Metal Gearbox

GP30 https://www.shapeways.com/product/43...ionId=57308314

Plastruct:  1.5 mm x 4.0 mm Styrene Strip  and 040"/1.0mm styrene sheet

Same process as before for assembling the copular and mount.

Glued to strips of the 040"/1.0mm styrene sheet to the sides then sanded

Then did a test fit and then dilled out the holes in the pilot using the mount as a guide

 I then reinstalled the Kadee coupler, rounded out the edges and applied filler, sanding again until it looked like this 

After I screwed the mount in place,  I used on inch piece of 1.5 mm x 4.0 mm Styrene Strip, sanding the ends until it fit and glued in place filling the bottom gap. Again I used filler to fill in the exposed gaps/seams in the front of the pilot. Then sanded until smooth, then primed and painted

While the paint was drying. I took the opportunity and sanded down the couplar mount on the truck assembly. Note: If you use the 743s you will not need to do this. 

Once paint was dry, I reattached the pilots  to the trucks. You will note that I had sanded downe the back of the draft gear box to insure fit and also rounded out the edges. By using 743s this will be unnecessary.  

 Weaver U25b Pilot using the 743s

The completed conversion.

U30B Before

After with without rounded mount and lower gap showing.

U25B without the cheesy rounded kadee mount and filled in pilot.  Learn as you go right?

U30B Final configuration

Excellent tutorial. Takes a lot of time to do those conversions and even more to document it for others. I for one appreciate it ;-)

Following with great interest.. Thanks for posting and documenting!!  Got some coupler boxes and I saw right away how you could modify and use them in different applications!! I've watched Laidoffsick's u-tube videos which are a great help also!!

My questions are: what kind of filler works best for you?? What type primer are you using?? And what do you use to hold things together during mock up?? Did I see double sided tape in one of the pics?? TIA

Best. 

Thread. 

Ever.  

Woodson posted:

Following with great interest.. Thanks for posting and documenting!!  Got some coupler boxes and I saw right away how you could modify and use them in different applications!! I've watched Laidoffsick's u-tube videos which are a great help also!!

My questions are: what kind of filler works best for you?? What type primer are you using?? And what do you use to hold things together during mock up?? Did I see double sided tape in one of the pics?? TIA

Wooden

Glad this thread is helping you out. To answer you questions.

Currently for filler I am using Squadron Products fast drying White Putty. Although to be honest, I could use something that spreads a little easier to fill in the gaps. It's too bad they don't make bondo that you could squeeze from a tube.

For primer, I am using Rust-Oleum universal bonding primer. I am using white, due to using red paint. If I use a darker color it comes out too dark.  So the color of your primer depends on the color paint your using. Since the pilots are made from brass. You will need to prime before you paint the Pilot. 

Since I am either adding to fill the gap by adding styrene or reducing the width of the kadee mount. I am usually sanding to fine tune the fit. I have been sanding down until I have a snug fit. I use the two sided tape when I am drilling the holes in the Pilot for the screws. It helps keep the mount right where I need it.  I do have JB Weld if I really mess up on the hole alignment. So far( knock on wood), I haven't had to use it. I usually use carpet tape. What you saw, is what I use to hold down lead weights or for PS 2/3 upgrades. The SD 24 was a different anamal but same process. 

I hope this helps. Maybe someone else could chime in and suggest a different filler. At least I know now of one person who is reading this thread other than Mario.

Doug

You've all seen the drawings that come out of the engineering that goes into these pieces. 

Heres an example of the engineering... The upcoming coupler mount for the Atlas GP35, and possibly the GP60s. And if I'm lucky, the MTH GP35/40s as well.

PT 7 is the Lionel CB&Q/GN GP35 and MTH GP35

Mario AKA  CentralFan1976   ( https://www.shapeways.com/shops/gandyman ) sells Lionel Kadee mounts on Shapeways for GP7/9, GP30, and GP40s. After I installed them on a pair of Lionel GP9s. The good idea fairy set in and I decided to do an install on a MTH GP35.

The purpose of this thread , is to show how adapt his products for other then their intended uses.

A couple of things to note. If you plan on fixing the pilots you will need to mount a spacer between the frame and the pilot.  You will also have to remove the coupler mounts from the trucks.

Part List MTH GP35 Updated part  list

Part List: #740Type E Couplers Change to Kadee 743s

Lionel GP30 Kadee mounts   https://www.shapeways.com/product/43...ionId=57308314

MTH GP35 Modified GP30 mount  I had to modify the mounts the same way I did the SD45. Sand both sides down until they fit the gap in the pilot. The next step  

The next step I installed the 743s into the mount and then sanded off the angles. Using the green putty, I filled in the gaps then sanded to desired shape. 

I then mounted them on to the pilots using the MTH predrilled holes for Kadee couplers. After I used the green putty to fill in all gaps. Let it dry and sanded. Then off to paint.

Now because I had originally used 805s. I had to do this in order to make everything fit. By using the 743s you will eliminate this step.

Lionel CB&Q GP35

Part list Kadee 743s
Lionel GP30 Kadee mounts   https://www.shapeways.com/product/43...ionId=57308314

With this one I used the GP30 mounts 743s. This provided a better fit and using the 743 allowed for little modification to the truck assemblies and plenty of room.

Minor trimming of the rear coupler mount

Lionel GN GP35 using the GP9 mounts with 740s.  

Part List: #740Type E Couplers or 805s. In this case I used 805s

Lionel O scale EMD GP7/GP9 pilot Kadee coupler mount
https://www.shapeways.com/product/GF...ionId=57308322

This was my third conversion so I was still in the learning process of what works and what doesn't work.. Knowing what I know now. Using the 743s was a better choice and required less surgery.

Front truck had to remove coupler mount.

I had to do a lot of cutting on the rear truck.  743s eliminate virtually all the cutting

 Lionel CB&Q GP35 and GN GP35. Both are sitting at the correct height. The difference is the 743s are bulkier then the 805s. Also the pilots come with washers. for some reason both were missing some of their  washers. The missing washers caused the CBQ pilot to sit a tad higher. I have since acquired the correct washers for the pilots.

Future posts will cover the MTH GP30/GP9/SD9/U25B and Lionel GP30 TMCC with Odyssey 1.   

Sorry for the bump had to go back in and finish editing post.  

Mario.

The GP30 mounts work for Lionel GP35s. Been a little busy, I just updated the post with Lionel and MTH GP35s  

Thanks for the update. 

Way back when, I theorized that the newer Legacy GP7/9s and the Legacy GP35s used the same pilot, so I'm not surprised that there is overlap of coupler mounts. The GN unit looks fantastic (well, they ALL do!). 

Theres a few things I try to keep consistent between designs, and besides coupler height (critical), but also the distance the coupler box sticks out from the pilot. Basically, the distance the first set of screws sit back from the rear of the pilot just enough to clear the head of a standard 2-56 screw. (0.170" diameter). 

In turn, this sets the entire front-to-rear positioning, and then just fill in around from there. 

The new designs (starting with the Atlas GP35) will only have 0.500" openings in the front of the mounts, which will require trimming the ears off the boxes to slide them in. The side holes will still be there, but with the channel only as big as the box, there will be no side-to-side movement. I've also thought about adding another hole in the center for an Atlas box (we'll see). 

Keep up the awesome work and let me know what you need!

Mario

I am finding MTH pilots are about the same. All have small opening which require that you sand the sides down. Right now the choice for MTH seams to be the GP9 mount. But as soon as I get around to it. I plan to retro fit the MTH GP35 with a GP30 mount and see if it makes a difference.. Ether way if I want the face of the pilot flush. I will have to do the same thing I did with the SD24.. As for the width of the mount front opening.. For me its not an issue, since I am now rounding off the front to try to make it more prototypical.  The whole purpose was to show just how adaptable your mounts are. You made a pretty good wheel, So why recreate one.  Wither or not anybody is following this thread is a different story. But if I can help one or two, then its worth it.       

Doug

Doug,

if you want to hold on for a little while longer, the MTH are coming and should be drop in. 

Plastic is very easy to work with, especially if all you need to do is trim the sides. I created a jig to do the same thing for some of the cab units, just trim them down to fit. 

Thanks!

- Mario

suzukovich posted:

Wither or not anybody is following this thread is a different story. But if I can help one or two, then its worth it.       

Doug

I for one am following with great interest.  Keep up the great work, men...and please keep posting!!

CNJ #1601 posted:

suzukovich posted:

Wither or not anybody is following this thread is a different story. But if I can help one or two, then its worth it.       

Doug

I for one am following with great interest.  Keep up the great work, men...and please keep posting!!

I am too!!!