Installing MTH Cantilever Signals

Hello Bill.

Are you looking to simulate "block / occupancy" control or something else like turnout position?

The signals themselves have some built-in circuitry that will "drop" the signal to red or green depending on the input power to the colored leads. Providing power to either the red or green lead could be accomplished thru a relay and isolated track sections or switch motors. The DZ-1070 should also work. All you are looking for is a device that switches power input to the lights.

As an example, say you have a green signal and that lead is hot. By switching power to the red lead, the signal will drop from green - yellow - red. When the power is applied to the green lead, the opposite will happen, red - yellow - green.

That being said, I use mine to indicate turnout position only. I power the leads thru either the auxiliary contacts on my Tortoise switch motors or DZ-1008's connected to my DZ-1000 motors. The lights work great for my application.

For some pics, check out the scenery section today under "Sunday Showcase" or look at my article in the recent OGR magazine.

Hope that helps.

Donald

Donald,

Yes, I am wanting to simulate block /occupancy such that when "empty" the light would be green.  Ideally as the train approached the block the signal would turn to yellow and when a train enters the block/it is occupied the light would go to red.  When you say "either the red or green lead could be accomplished through a relay and isolated track sections", I understand the isolated sections.  Could you describe what you mean by "a relay" in this instance?  Bill B.

Hey Bill. Yes, that is what I mean. I am a structural draftsman by trade, the electrical stuff sometimes is a mystery! I think of a "relay" as a device that "switches" a power supply from one set of contacts to another.

I looked at that DZ-1070 on the Z-stuff website. I found the instructions were also on the site as a pdf file. They show a specific wiring diagram for the MTH cantilever signal. I agree, that would work for track occupancy.

This is how I understand they work. I would think the scenerio would be, a signal shows green before the train enters the block. Once the engine passes thru the beam of the DZ-1070 at the beginning of the block, it will "switch" the power source and turn the light to red. As long as a train is passing by, it will stay red until the last car passes, at that point, the beam is no longer broke and turns the signal back to green.

Donald

I wired mine with one signal for my siding off track 2 and a block off track 1
For block control you'll need a relay. For switch control I used a single pole double throw normally open normally closed micro switch. I use under the table switch machines and just mounted the micro switch so the track switch activation bar hits it.
When the track switch is thrown it releases the micro switch and changes the signal from  green to red.

For blocks you'll have to use an insulated rail and a relay

David

Thanks fellas.  I've got to think about this and maybe tinker a little bit.  I would like to avoid using  an infrared type trackside sensor if possible.  Partly because I don't like the visual aspect but most importantly, inorder for the signal to remain red while a train is in a block thr beam must remain broken.  Usually these sensors are right at the location of the signal, so in the case of a long block such as mine the train could pass the sensor and remain in the block and the light change to green.  Doesn't that sound right and if so I need some other way to control the signal lights while the train is in the block?  That is where the isolated rail and relay would come into play?  Would that be right?  If so then I need to come up with a relay switch applicable to this situation, something that could be installed beneath the layout.  Any suggestions on a specific type of relay switch?  Bill B.

please correct me if i'm wrong, but for a block signal, isn't the operation

1) normally green

2) as train A passes the signal, it turns to red.  train B approaching behind train A would see red, "Stop: block ahead is occupied"

3) when train A passes into the second block beyond the signal, signal switches to yellow: train B sees "Yellow, proceed with caution, block immediately ahead is clear, but second block ahead is occupied"

4) when train A passes out of the second block beyond the signal, signal returns to normal green

the lionel #78 and #99 signals (and mth repros of these) work with an insulated track section to begin the sequence from green to red, but use a delay timer to approximate the operation of red to yellow and return to green, because it's too impractical to be running wires from sensors all over the layout.  not familiar with the cantilever signal and don't know if it has a timer, but you may have to simulate something like in the 99.

My experience with powering the MTH cantilever signal using a DZ-1070 directly is that the brightness of the signal LED's is anemic.

I subsequently added DZ-1008A relays to switch them, with much improved results.

Rod

Railhead 53:

I use isolated rails and DZ 1008 relays for control. If isolated rails are impractical DZ1011s or DZ1070s and DZ1008s will work. I have no experience with DZ1075s but I think they will control MTH signals directly.

Hojack is correct on block signal operation.

All Z-Stuff signals display a green indication normally (clear). After a train enters the block and passes the signal they display red (occupied). After the train clears they display yellow (next block occupied) for about 10 seconds then go to green. MTH signals should be installed the same way, they also have the automatic10 second yellow indication).

The only hope for signals on a model railroad is to create something that looks reasonability correct. To make a prototypical installation would be difficult. Our layouts are small compared to the real world. The system would be complicated, the expensive, and would probability need a computer program to control it.

Although I would like to see it done.

Richard E    Rochester NY

Rod,

What has been your experience with the trackside infrared sensors in terms of their appearance and reliability?  Bill B.

Richard,

Thank you for straightening me out on the block signaling operation issue.  I'm leaning toward the idea of isolating the rails and utilizing DZ 1008's.  I've not actually ever seen the DZ-1070 sensor so I am interested in hearing what Rod thinks as well.  I very much appreciate everyones comments/thoughts.  Bill B. 

Railhead

I had some problems with DZ1008s interfering with each other when more than one is connected to the same isolated rail. I solved the problem by purchasing from Radio Shack small 12V AC SPDT relays.

I don’t know the reason, but the next time I see Dennis Zander I’ll ask him.

I may have missed this as I skimmed through the posts here.  I have the same signal bridge.  It automatically changes with delay from yellow to green.  If you haven't read instructions (or they didn't come with the signals as in my case), you can find them on MTH product finder.

I use a Lionel 153IR.  It has worked great.  Has normally open, normally closed and most importantly to me, a so far very reliable timer.  I run a subway line through the green, about a foot later it hits the IR and changes.  The other light is over an adjoining track wired oposite.  It's normally red.  I fiddled with the timer so when setting speed of train doing loops, the signals change on time with location of arriving train.  Real easy.

Anyway, I found the Lionel cheaper new at Nicholas Smith ($35 in Nov) than anywhere else including used on ebay.

It also has a sensitivity adjustment so train or movement beyond the desired track doesn't affect the switching.

In short, it has a lot of versitility.  I bought a couple extras for my future expansion.  It's not bad looking either.

Good luck, John

MTH's cabinet-style ITAD:

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/45-1028

looks like with some painting/weathering the appearance should not be too bad.

cannot speak to reliability: have 2 on order.

I am happy overall with the trackside sensors operation and looks.

Spacing from the edge of the track is quite critical. I forget the exact dimension, but I know that some larger locomotives seem to clear the sensor head by only 1/8" or so. I initially had a couple located on the outside of curved sections, and they were trouble due to variable overhang. I relocated them to the inside of the curve, or to a straight section, and solved the problem.

I also mount them on small chunks of cork roadbed, same as under my track, which preserves the height alignment needed for most rolling stock.

Rod

Thanks fellas for the replies.  The information that has been shared has been real helpful.  I've got some ideas and will let you know how things turn out.  Thank you, Bill B.

2 Pictures of the Cantilever Signal Bridges still in service on the CSX.

1 is near White Sulphur Springs, WV and the other is at CW Cabin at the West End of

Hinton Yard, Hinton WV

These signals are fast being replaced by the new type being used by CSX, NS & UP...

If you are in a area where these type of signals are still in use, better get your pictures now because they will soon be gone.............

I have the bridge and use relays activated by an insulated outside rail. Hookup is explained here

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=410&categoryId=426

Dale H

Bill B.,  You might look into a product from 'Scott's Odds-n-Ends' called an MTR-12T.  It's a 12volt AC/DC relay which will allow you to operate your signal using an insulated outside rail. A train entering the block will energize the relay causing the signal to change green to red. When train leaves the block, relay will deenergize causing signal to turn red to yellow. Internal time delay (within the signal base) will then cause signal to change yellow to green. I believe a copy of the instruction sheet can be found on Scott's website if you want to see exactly how the wires are connected. 

Hi all,

Here's the basic wiring diagram for using MTH signals with DZ-1008A relays and an insulated rail section.  The cantilever signal bridge has two signal circuits.  Simply duplicate the wiring for each signal head.

Just getting back with all of those on the forum who offered advice/assistance in helping me to set up my MTH Cantilever signals. I have two tracks with a signal at each end of the isolated block.  Based on feedback I received I purchased two MTR-12T relays from Scott's Odds-n-Ends.  Wired them up per instructions with assistance fromn a friend and they work perfectly.  Below is a picture taken just a few minutes ago showing one of the signals in operation.  Thanks again for everybodies help.  Bill B. 

I am using the trackside infrared sensor ( ITAD )that worked fine till  i added more lighting both overhead and in vehicles and structures I started having false triggers so plan to change to relays

Just last night i had to turn 2  lamp post  around using the pole to shade the ITAD and had to plant a tree to keep my wreckers emergency flasher from setting another one off, and on the others I  put a layer of frosted cellophane tape over the eye to keep the additional overhead florescent lights I just installed from holding them closed. 

jim Warren, Ohio

A word of caution. The Cantilever signal won't clear double-stacks. Not sure about Superliners. If you're running these, you might want to add a "concrete" base to the mix. On ours, we used relays and insulated rail to trigger the signals.

If I use the MTH double signal cantilever bridge and Scott's Odds and Ends relays how long should the "isolated block" be?  I am going to have a double main line into a tunnel and out the other side.  I want to put a signal bridge going into each portal on each side.  Should the isolated block be only several inches on the way into the tunnel  on either end or run the entire length of the tunnel?

Referring to Dave's Signal wiring sheet, I see that the outside rail is cut.

Should the real cut be in the hot center rail?

Hi guys,

Should the isolated block be only several inches on the way into the tunnel  on either end or run the entire length of the tunnel?

If you want the signal to show red anytime there is a train in the tunnel you should make the insulated rail section the full length of the tunnel.

Should the real cut be in the hot center rail?

Nope.  In this particular circuit we are using an insulated outside rail as a grounding switch.  When the wheels of the train hit the insulated section power flows from one outside rail to the other.

HELP, I have a Fast Track layout and a new MTH Cantilevered Signal Bridge (Red / yellow / green lights) that I want to connect up to a Lionel Fastrack Accessory Activator Pack.  The Activator pack is the one that has a Break in the outside rail.  The Cantilevered Signal Bridge has 3 wires (Red / Black & Green).  I'm confused, how do I connect it up in order to make it work?