Is is Possible to Return N&W 1218 to Steam?

N&W 1218 can be brought back into excursion service. The outside looks pretty good but the inside still needs lots of work done. Now for the cost of restoration, I went to the Sacramento Railway Museum and saw Cab Forward 4294, sat in its cab and man that's quite a feeling. I asked the person in the cab the cost to fully restore 4294 and he said $1,000,000 for excursion service. I bet the 1218 would be somewhere between $400,000 and $800,000 but again results vary. 

All it takes is will and a lot MONEY!!!!!!!!!!

PRRronbh posted:

All it takes is will and a lot MONEY!!!!!!!!!!

And a railroad willing to run it.

You guys always seem to forget that part.

I think getting the Y going would be more interesting.  

The well meaning fellow at the Cab Forward is a bit low.  If it is a locomotive that hasn't run in fifty years or more, expect more like $2M, and that assumes some volunteer labor.  Rich Melvin dropped the trump card:  there has to be a railroad willing to run it.  And the bigger and heavier the locomotive is, the harder it is to find a suitable place to run it.  Cooper Bridge loadings and bridge clearances are a real issue along with the axle loading and gross weight of the locomotive.  The high-weight-in-a-fairly-short-distance of a bigger steamer is another real issue at times on some longer bridges.  Even an AMC Berkshire like the 765 has only one possible way into Chicago and it is NOT one of Amtrak's easterly routes.  Wyes and other curves are another real, limiting issue.  The 765 can get around a 20 degree or greater curve.  The 611 is limited to a 15 or 16 degree curve.  The replica PRR T-1 will probably wind up in the same range as the 611 and that really cuts down your operating options.  It is obvious but don't forget that articulateds have a lot of overhang and that is a serious clearance issue.  Remember the UP 3985 visiting the Clinclfield and banging a string of hoppers with the corner of the running boards?

Maybe it might be best to keep and support what is running.  Sometimes one can have too much for your own good.

NKP779 posted:

The well meaning fellow at the Cab Forward is a bit low.  If it is a locomotive that hasn't run in fifty years or more, expect more like $2M, and that assumes some volunteer labor.  

I like that as you're on the right "track"!  I've found over the years restoring various pieces of heavy equipment and a few airplanes that the initial $$$ estimates quickly escalate to where I always figured triple it then add half...or in this case say $3.5 million to restore it.

If everyone would please just step back (don't buy tickets) and let me win the Mega-Millions Lottery, I'd be willing to pledge $10MM to restore both the A and Y. That should be about "enough".

How's that for a big fat pipe dream!

The 1218 will never return to steam as the insides were gutted by NS and sold at auction years ago.

Stephen

The "...insides..." you refer to are the flues. Replacing them is no big deal. Just a few thousand $$$.

Yeah, in the big scheme of things getting a pipe shop to roll in flues is probably not too bad.  Running gear and other "wear down" parts however... in a world lacking tool and die shops etc....  It can be done... the folks in Cumberland are proving that every day.  It just takes money and more importantly a railroad willing to run it.

Jon

KOOLjock1 posted:

Yeah, in the big scheme of things getting a pipe shop to roll in flues is probably not too bad. 

A bit more involved than "getting a pipe shop to roll in flues", as the person/persons had better be experienced in the Boiler Maker trade, as well as experienced in steam locomotive boilers and applicable practices (locomotive boilers are quite a bit different than stationary boilers).

Running gear and other "wear down" parts however... in a world lacking tool and die shops etc.... 

Tool and die shops are not necessary, but top notch Machinists are. Also, for what it's worth, only one engine on 1218 was completely overhauled prior to the end of the "steam program" on NS. Thus, the other engine needs a complete rebuild, i.e. machinery, spring rigging, pins & bushings, etc..  

It can be done... the folks in Cumberland are proving that every day.  It just takes money and more importantly a railroad willing to run it.

The "railroad willing to run it" is obviously the MOST important point.

Jon

Gilly@N&W posted:

If everyone would please just step back (don't buy tickets) and let me win the Mega-Millions Lottery, I'd be willing to pledge $10MM to restore both the A and Y. That should be about "enough".

How's that for a big fat pipe dream!

Not big enough.  Add 100 million to build a right of way with turning facilities and then I think we're good. 

I rode the NS 1218 steam fan trip from Chicago Illinois to Fort Wayne Indiana and back in the early 90s.I completely appreciated that it was an opportunity that may never happen again.I hope the engine runs again,at least it is being preserved.I bought my ticket for the 611 Pocohantas excursion ride in Roanoke Virginia this May.This will be the fifth NS steam excursion trip for me.Enjoy it while you can.

For all of you dreamers, here's a very amateur video that I took a long time ago. Note the open windows on some coach cars, you won't see that in this day and age. Can't beat that "Hooter"!

Very nice....I love that hooter.  Maybe someday, 

Dan986 posted:

I rode the NS 1218 steam fan trip from Chicago Illinois to Fort Wayne Indiana and back in the early 90s.I completely appreciated that it was an opportunity that may never happen again.I hope the engine runs again,at least it is being preserved.I bought my ticket for the 611 Pocohantas excursion ride in Roanoke Virginia this May.This will be the fifth NS steam excursion trip for me.Enjoy it while you can.

That looks like the yard office at East Wayne yards, probably while they were servicing the engine. I'm probably standing off to the left side of your picture. Some time in the early 90's NS stopped letting people up close to the engine while they were servicing it. Can't tell enough by the pic if the area is blocked off.

Big Jim..Thanks for posting..nice video...was that VHS..

Wife and I rode excursion behind 1218 from G'boro-Roanoke rnd trip.. lost my tape but yours is much better anyway..

Like that whistle over 611..

That was from a 8mm cassette video/Ricoh camcorder...and a very amatuer cameraman. 

For those interested in seeing the 1218 in action, I highly recommend "18 Wheels Of Steel" which was released by Rich Melvin's Hopewell Productions. The video covers the early period of the 1218's second life, in particular the first weekend of public excursions which featured the first trip run in the midst of a massive rainstorm. Very dramatic with breath taking views and sounds, I consider it the best 1218 program available. If we can't have the real thing, this DVD is the best alternative.

Bob

Yes that is a great video with some good footage of the late Frank Collins at the throttle.

At least NS is still allowing steam on its railroad. The other major railroad with three letters in its name wants nothing to do with steam, period, so you can forget about a C&O 1039 excursion from Cumberland to Baltimore and back. It will only be able to run on the WMSR, which is 16 miles long but at least the beast is running for the first time and hauling tourists. The closest alternative to the 1218 for now. It runs this summer.

Why doesn’t someone start a campaign to Fire Up 1218? It is one of my favorite Steam engines out there and I would 100% support a campaign to return 1218 to operating condition. I honestly think the campaign could be successful.

LIONELLEGEND- sorry to report but NS is highly focused on making money now, trying to keep the financial community and stockholders. satisfied with their Return on Investment.  E. Harrison Hunter raised financial expectations across the entire railroad world.   It appears that no excursions on NS will be allowed this year and maybe longer.  The 611 could be "all dressed up with nowhere to go" and that would be the same for the 1218.  Big, heavy mainline locomotives are very limited on where they go and not many short lines can accommodate them with track, bridges, and wyes, etc.

Dan986 posted:

I rode the NS 1218 steam fan trip from Chicago Illinois to Fort Wayne Indiana and back in the early 90s.I completely appreciated that it was an opportunity that may never happen again.

Yeah, I chased her a couple of times in the deep south and rode behind her in the tool car from Jacksonville to Valdosta (GA) soon after she got rebuilt. I'd seen her in 1981 when she was dead and cold in Roanoke, never realizing I'd ride behind her a few years later. By the time we were heading southbound on the NS to JAX, it was dark out. It was like being inside an O Winston Link photo. Lights were coming on at porches all down the line and you could see the silhouettes of people running outside to see what they were hearing. Still feels like yesterday!

But even at the time, as a teen, my older train fan pals were reminding the classic lesson of train fans: Ride it while you can because it might be gone tomorrow.

OGR Webmaster posted:

The "...insides..." you refer to are the flues. Replacing them is no big deal. Just a few thousand $$$.

I saw the 1218 in Birmingham not long after the steam program ended in 1994. At the time, they had removed not only the flues, but large sections of the crown sheet and sections of the boiler (I took images of the 1218 and the 2716 sitting alongside). As I understand it, 1218 was rushed back into service in 1987, and by 1994, there  was plenty of replacement work needed for the firebox and boiler, not just a standard flu replacement. I would say it may be more like $2.5 - $3 million to make her operate again, and then as rich said, where would you run it? 

The Gramlings have the right idea for steam operation - small enough to be transported by truck, and can operate on most short line railroads or museums across the US. We all love big steam, but without the right Class 1 railroad or large short line, excursions are few and far between.

Larry Neal posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

The "...insides..." you refer to are the flues. Replacing them is no big deal. Just a few thousand $$$.

I saw the 1218 in Birmingham not long after the steam program ended in 1994. At the time, they had removed not only the flues, but large sections of the crown sheet and sections of the boiler (I took images of the 1218 and the 2716 sitting alongside). As I understand it, 1218 was rushed back into service in 1987, and by 1994, there  was plenty of replacement work needed for the firebox and boiler, not just a standard flu replacement.

I'd forgotten that, as I too got to see her in her partially-disassembled state around the same time. 1218 was going through a great deal of work when NS pulled the plug and I was told by some of the departing steam guys that a lot of parts were simply thrown into the smokebox and the lid tightened. The only other work done after that was just getting her ready for the dead tow back to Roanoke another year later.

We’re lucky we got to see 611 run again. Seems like NS is no longer hosting excursions as there are no 611 excursions scheduled this year so far.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I think getting the Y going would be more interesting.  

I'm not sure the Y would be allowed be towed somewhere to work on it. It would be dangerous to try to get it back to St. Louis. It is not rail worthy.
Many of 1218's internal parts were sold off years ago after the dismantling of NS steam program last century. I would say it would take at least 1 million if not more to restore it. We still don't have the money to build the engine maintenance and display facility at the museum. The 611 wouldn't have made it without the generous donation from Norfolk Southern that pushed us over the top. Funding isn't there, the facility isn't built, we have no place to run the engine since the VMT is land-locked.

Scott Smith

scott.smith posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I think getting the Y going would be more interesting.  

I'm not sure the Y would be allowed be towed somewhere to work on it. It would be dangerous to try to get it back to St. Louis. It is not rail worthy.

Really? Please elaborate on that statement, i.e. "It isn't rail worthy".

Many of 1218's internal parts were sold off years ago after the dismantling of NS steam program last century. I would say it would take at least 1 million if not more to restore it. We still don't have the money to build the engine maintenance and display facility at the museum. The 611 wouldn't have made it without the generous donation from Norfolk Southern that pushed us over the top. Funding isn't there, the facility isn't built, we have no place to run the engine since the VMT is land-locked.

Scott Smith

scott.smith posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I think getting the Y going would be more interesting.  

I'm not sure the Y would be allowed be towed somewhere to work on it. It would be dangerous to try to get it back to St. Louis. It is not rail worthy.
Many of 1218's internal parts were sold off years ago after the dismantling of NS steam program last century. I would say it would take at least 1 million if not more to restore it. We still don't have the money to build the engine maintenance and display facility at the museum. The 611 wouldn't have made it without the generous donation from Norfolk Southern that pushed us over the top. Funding isn't there, the facility isn't built, we have no place to run the engine since the VMT is land-locked.

Scott Smith

Scott, speaking of 611, where is it located right now?

I believe it is in Spencer. NS will probably let it deadhead back to the VMT then after that it’s Rip Van Winkle time for 611.  NS is now focused on being profitable again and that doesn’t include steam excursions. I believe the one answer above by NKP779 is the reason NS is not really allowing more 611 excursions. EHH cut CSX to the bone and NS wants to look good for Wall Street and the shareholders. The ONLY reason NS had steam again in the first place was because of Wick Moorman.

Earlier this summer July it was at VMT.

611 is at Spencer for winter maintenance. Should be done by March, from schedules held in the past. 

I guess we have to wait what VMT says but as of now there are no excursions or events planned yet for 611 for 2018. If NS really won’t let them operate any excursions with 611 this year then they’re basically stuck. 611 will have to sit at home for a while. Unless they can find an opportunity to take 611 to another railroad to operate excursions, but where? It was a treat seeing 611 thunder into Manassas Station June 2016. Only time I saw and rode behind 611 live.

Took the family to Manassas VA to see 1218, in 1989 as I recall. She was impressive even while standing still, huffing and snorting as they refilled water and coal.  My kids didn't catch the "train bug" but they still remember that night in Manassas.