Is it correct that the LIONEL O-27 locomotives and O-27 Cars are built at 1/64 Scale

My understanding is that Lionel traditional items go with what works, not really following any scale.  If it happens to measure out to 1/64, then it's a happy accident.

A number of years ago K-Line made a "scale"  ogauge Big Boy that happened to be 1/64th. Later Lionel used the molds to make the AF Big Boy

Simple answer NO...

Some may be very close (Baby Ruth Box) but 6464 box cars are good PRR X-29 almost scale.  Four Bay hoppers are not 1/64 for sure......PRR caboose...

It's a mixed bag and depends a lot on era the item was first made. 

But I do not feel the 'all O-27 are 1/64' is not true.

The only car than can be considered 1/64th scale is the 60XX Scout-type double door boxcar.  Even then it needs some work.

The proportions are just about perfect for a 40' boxcar in S.  Here it is next to a true 1/64th boxcar after modifications:

Some S gaugers have used MPC auto racks, 6656 style stock cars and 6561 style depressed center flat cars, but they measure out wider than the 10' of a prototype car.

Rusty

@cbojanower posted:

My understanding is that Lionel traditional items go with what works, not really following any scale.  If it happens to measure out to 1/64, then it's a happy accident.

I believe your response is correct. Lionel was not really concerned with "scale" until they actually began producing scale items. O27 is somewhat close to 1:64--or at least some of it is--but much or most O27 is a bit larger.

@Rusty Traque posted:

The only car than can be considered 1/64th scale is the 60XX Scout-type double door boxcar.  Even then it needs some work.

The proportions are just about perfect for a 40' boxcar in S.  Here it is next to a true 1/64th boxcar after modifications:

Some S gaugers have used MPC auto racks, 6656 style stock cars and 6561 style depressed center flat cars, but they measure out wider than the 10' of a prototype car.

Rusty

What about the ttux spine car sets or the 027 doublestack cars?

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

What about the ttux spine car sets or the 027 doublestack cars?

They're larger than 1/64 proportion, but "close enough" for some Flyer folks.

Rusty

You can put O gauge trucks on AMERICAN MODELS S scale cars to operated them with LIONEL traditional O gauge cars.

The big trick is finding the right using screws and nylon washers to hold the trucks in place.

Andrew

Until recently Lionel made O gauge and O27 gauge Toy trains not scale trains.  They were concerned with what track they ran on.

Charlie

I don't think that a lot of the trains that Lionel sold to run on O27 height track were built to any specific scale. They were "selectively compressed" in length to run on 27 inch curves, however.  The same for those they sold to run on O31 track, but not usually to the same extent.

Many "O27" engines and cars were the same (except for the number or decoration) as those marketed by Lionel as "O" gauge.

I always believed 1:55 fit the bill.  More or less.

Old Baby Ruth Lionel 027 Boxcar on the left.  Modern Menards O Gauge Boxcar on the right.

John

@Johnsgg1 posted:

I always believed 1:55 fit the bill.  More or less.

I believe you're right.

To enter into the fray, the lionel plugdoor boxcars appear virtually identical to the Marx 8 wheel plastic cars.

I was going to take a comparison photo but my Marx cars are at the bottom of the pile.

John

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Until recently Lionel made O gauge and O27 gauge Toy trains not scale trains.  They were concerned with what track they ran on.

Charlie

C.C.C.,

Define "recently".

Mike

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Until recently Lionel made O gauge and O27 gauge Toy trains not scale trains.  They were concerned with what track they ran on.

Charlie

Ummm.  Better check pages 56-69 of the latest catalog...

Rusty

The late prewar, early postwar metal tank cars were very close to scale, such as the 2555, 2755, 2855, and 2955. Believe it or not the depressed center (transformer load) flat cars were just about scale length for a prototype I saw in a magazine. The early NW2 switchers, and Fairbanks Morse Train Masters were close to scale, as are the 6464 series of boxcars. Here’s a repaint I did on one of those metal tank cars.

In the 1990s Lionel offered S gauge versions of the O gauge TTUX cars, only difference being the trucks.  I think there was also one or two more O gauge items they did this with, the small 027 size stock car being one of them.

In the 2021Vol2 catalog, the American Flyer SP cabooses look just like the Lionel 0-27 counterparts, wonder if they actually are ?

@ed h posted:

In the 2021Vol2 catalog, the American Flyer SP cabooses look just like the Lionel 0-27 counterparts, wonder if they actually are ?

Nope.  They were made with new tooling in the late 1990's.  Lionel also uses the same body with a different roof for an extended vision caboose.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Nope.  They were made with new tooling in the late 1990's.  Lionel also uses the same body with a different roof for an extended vision caboose.

Rusty

Rusty Traque - I know the Lionel O-27 cabooses were retooled in the early 1990s when they switched to the 2 piece body/roof combo. I was under the impression the American Flyer caboose was this version ? Photo of Southern Pacific 48714 from 1997 below.

I think there needs to be a little lesson on scale for a second.

O scale in the US is 1/4 scale or 1:48 in proportion.

1/64th scale is 64' to the inch or a proportion of 1:192 which is somewhere between N at 1:160 and Z at 1:220.

S scale is 3/16 scale or 1:64 proportion.

This PSA brought to you by your friendly rivet counter who has a father with a professional background in math and computer science, a daughter who teaches high school calculus, and her younger sister who is a computer programmer.  I'm just the dumb one in the middle.

Hi,

Great information.

Is the LIONEL 0-27 Caboose BODY the same physical size as an American Flyer / LIONEL S Scale Caboose BODY ?

Is there an American Flyer / LIONEL S Scale Steam Locomotive that is close to the same physical size as the

LIONEL 0-27 ATLANTIC Locomotive BODY ?

Is the LIONEL 0-27 Train Station suitable in physical size to use with the American Flyer / Lionel S Scale Trains ?

As a Child in the 1960's,

I was always disappointed with my LIONEL 0-27 ATLANTIC Locomotive

WRONGLY believing that my LIONEL ATLANTIC Locomotive was missing one Driver Axle !!!

That 3rd Rail also always bothered me, as a Child in the 1960's.

Today, that 3rd Rail brings back happy memories of my Long Long Ago Childhood !

Strange how Life Works !

Thank you,

Norman

@ed h posted:

Rusty Traque - I know the Lionel O-27 cabooses were retooled in the early 1990s when they switched to the 2 piece body/roof combo. I was under the impression the American Flyer caboose was this version ? Photo of Southern Pacific 48714 from 1997 below.

To be honest, I never thought of the possibility that the retooled O27 caboose was also used for Flyer.  I sold the only one I had years ago.  It looked OK by itself, but when even compared to the two Gilbert era cabooses, it looked "off" to me.

What's needed is someone who has both the Flyer and O27 versions to compare them side by side.

Rusty

As with any model, it helps to look at the prototype.  O27 never really had a "standard" scale applied to it.  In some cases a Lionel 027 locomotive may be close to S proportions.  I am thinking of locomotives such as the 671 / 681 / 2020 turbine. 

In most cases though the locomotives are a little large for S scale.  By comparison, Marx 3/16 cars and the venerable 666 locomotive aren't too far off S scale as is the Marx 4-6-2 Pacific class that K-Line also produced for some sets.  They were just gauged wide to run on O gauge track.

I think Lionel cars have been fairly well discussed.  The offset steel cupola caboose is large by S standards as are most of the cars.  American Flyer did a version of the common NE style steel caboose with the center cupola.  When you compare this to the Lionel O27 car the difference is noticeable.  Unfortunately, my father has all the Flyer and I have both the postwar and MPC era Lionel cabooses so I can't post a comparison photo. 

The only car I can think of that is close to S is the double door box car that has been shown above.   As has been mentioned, if a scale were applied to O27 Lionel cars 1:55 is close in many cases.  However, even this standard is hard to apply.  6464 boxcars are fairly close to 1:48 scale for an early steel boxcar which tended to be shorter than the more modern Pullman Standard PS-1 which nearly every manufacturer has made a version of.  Most boxcars in the steel era through the 50's tended to be 40' in length which would be 10" at 1/4" scale.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I think there needs to be a little lesson on scale for a second.

O scale in the US is 1/4 scale or 1:48 in proportion.

1/64th scale is 64' to the inch or a proportion of 1:192 which is somewhere between N at 1:160 and Z at 1:220.

S scale is 3/16 scale or 1:64 proportion.

This PSA brought to you by your friendly rivet counter who has a father with a professional background in math and computer science, a daughter who teaches high school calculus, and her younger sister who is a computer programmer.  I'm just the dumb one in the middle.

I must be missing something. When did O-scale start being referred to as 1/4 scale?

This begs the question: What is 1/1 scale? Doesn't that make prototype be 12 scale? Sure sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

I think I can see your point that O-scale is 1:48 scale. And sure 1/4" equals 1 foot in O-scale.

@GG1 4877 posted:

As with any model, it helps to look at the prototype.  O27 never really had a "standard" scale applied to it.  In some cases a Lionel 027 locomotive may be close to S proportions.  I am thinking of locomotives such as the 671 / 681 / 2020 turbine.

Yepper.  Scale is pretty elastic concerning O27 trains.  Lionel is the master when it comes to selective compression and still having things look right.

That's the beauty of Gilbert Flyer, just about everything was held to 3/16th's scale with some minor adjustments.  Of course, the Franklin and old time passenger cars were oversized, are more of an On42 product rather than S Scale.

The Baldwin switcher has some proportion issues, while IMO the two 0-6-0's are a bit oversized.  We won't even get in to the so-called "F9."

Rusty

@TM Terry posted:

I must be missing something. When did O-scale start being referred to as 1/4 scale?

It’s “quarter inch to the foot scale” which is often just shortened to 1/4” scale (pronounced “quarter inch scale”).  The double quote after the 1/4 is important.  I’ve heard that used quite a bit over the years.

This begs the question: What is 1/1 scale? Doesn't that make prototype be 12 scale? Sure sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

The prototype would be 1:1 or “12 inches to the foot” though I’ve not heard the latter used much.

Scale is nearly always listed one of two ways. Either as a ratio, 1:48, 1:64, 1:87, or as one measurement to another inch to foot or millimeters to the foot.  S is 3/16 inches to the foot, O is 1/4 inch to the foot, and HO is 3.5mm to the foot.

American Flyer 49010 horse car from 1996 appears to also be a Lionel 027 freight car with just Flyer trucks.

Any old dude with a CAD program can tool up a scale train... it takes artistry and talent to selectively compress a Post War work of art.

Jon

@GG1 4877 posted:

I think there needs to be a little lesson on scale for a second.

O scale in the US is 1/4 scale or 1:48 in proportion.

1/64th scale is 64' to the inch or a proportion of 1:192 which is somewhere between N at 1:160 and Z at 1:220.

S scale is 3/16 scale or 1:64 proportion.

This PSA brought to you by your friendly rivet counter who has a father with a professional background in math and computer science, a daughter who teaches high school calculus, and her younger sister who is a computer programmer.  I'm just the dumb one in the middle.

Actually 1/64 scale would be 1:768 if 1/4 scale is 1:48. It's 1/16th the size.

As you know, the correct terminology is 1/4"=1'. "1/4 scale" is meaningless by itself. 1/4 what? Equals what?

And as others have said,  O27 has no "scale", just selective compression.

@ed h posted:

American Flyer 49010 horse car from 1996 appears to also be a Lionel 027 freight car with just Flyer trucks.

Yes, it was.  The side view can be a little deceiving as the car was wider than a Flyer or other S Scale car.

Now, an oddity was the original Industrial Rail caboose.

The IR line was pretty much like traditional Lionel O27, somewhere north of 3/16th's scale varying on the car.  However, the caboose was just about perfect 3/16th's.  When I measured mine, it came out within a scale inch or two of a Southwind brass caboose.

Of course, the level of detail is apples and oranges, but quite passable especially if given a little work.

Rusty

@OGRNorman posted:

Is the LIONEL 0-27 Caboose BODY the same physical size as an American Flyer / LIONEL S Scale Caboose BODY ? ........

Thank you,

Norman

Here are pics and BODY measurements of a PostWar Lionel O27 caboose (this one happens to be one of my custom paint/decal projects) and a comparable PostWar American Flyer "S" caboose

Lionel SP: 7 inches long, 2 inches wide and 2 3/8 inches high

AF "S" caboose: 5 3/4 inches long, 1 3/4 inches wide and 1 3/4 inches high

The Industrial Rail PRR E6 is also 3/16" to the foot scale.  Re-gauged it would make a wonderful S locomotive.

@GG1 4877 posted:

The Industrial Rail PRR E6 is also 3/16" to the foot scale.  Re-gauged it would make a wonderful S locomotive.

A little more than re-gauging.  The wheels need to be insulated for 2 rail.

A modified A/F Atlantic chassis or cut down American Models Pacific drive have been used.

Rusty