The "Super 700E" Project: A Rebirth of Lionel's Controversial 1997 Scale Hudson

Not sure about that one but The PT tender works with the ones before the vision line Hudson

Why not simply transplant the electronics from the Vanderbilt tender into the PT???

FWIW, unless you already know I believe that hudson is "pullmor powered" so it will lack the operating qualities of more modern can motored locos.

 

Secondly I think there are some problems with these locos as well, can't recall exactly, maybe some type of gear issue?

 

This one. item 6-28072 will couple right to the pt tender and has the scullin drivers as well. These come up on the second hand market fairly often.

 

 

 

Heres an image posted from a forum member who did just that, maybe they will chime in.

 

 

Yes.

 

Surprisingly, it (the older 5344 and newer PT tender) works just fine.

 

I have that very combination sitting on my layout at this moment. It sounds just

great - except that it still only has one chuff per revolution, as that is triggered

by the loco; on my List of Things to Attack.

 

Here's the trick (it was just logical): you must do a simple factory reset on

the loco, but when you put in the number "code", use the number from a "modern"

loco, and I believe that it's 74 (look in a recent loco manual or the Lionel webste, I guess). This resets the loco sound protocols to talk to the new tender. It works just fine, coupler and all. If you don't do the protocol change, the tender will just "idle".

 

Also:

 

Second good thing: you now have this beautiful Vanderbilt tender (that needs re-

lettering, of course) that will work behind a "new" loco:

 

I took my freelance Hudson (used to be a too-long Lionel Erie Pacific) and did a factory

reset to an "old" number (18, I think...) and the newer loco now talks to the older

Vanderbilt just fine. Looks good, too.

 

Haven't re-lettered that pair, yet. (Don't forget to change the number on the back

of the PT tender; cab chatter will be wrong, but I never use that stuff anyway.)

 

BTW, my Pullmor-equipped 5344 actually is a very sweet runner, and I'm not a fan of

the old motors, so much. It must have decent gearing - but it does take 2 or 3 trips

around the layout to "warm up". The PT tender is correct and looks great. And I love those Scullin drivers on the loco.

 

 

Rick posted pics of my J3a which does mate up with the PT tender no problem. The tender has RS5 vs RS4 in the standard tender but they are compatible. Lionel sells the drivers separately if you want to change them out. If you prefer a J1, the K-Line Hudson would be a better choice but you would have to swap out the tether one way or the other plus one of the interface boards, eg if wanted wireless you would have to add a wireless driver to the engine plus a drawbar. Then there is the engine number. You would have reletter either the tender or engine number. It can be done but its not a simple swap.

One more thought, the crew talk, tower com are specific for 5429. If you wanted to match the sounds with the engine you could swap the audio boards but it would be RS 4 and require other mods to operate the coupler.

What's "PT"?  (assuming it is not "Physical Therapy")

 

  --Joe

I like this post. I always wanted a New Haven 4-8-2 Mountain with a six wheel Vanderbilt tender. Lionel as a NYC 4-8-2 and a C & O with a Vanderbilt tender. If I could combine them, it would be nice. Maybe Lionel will consider a future run like that.

 

Who would we contact to put the bug in their ear?

I think MTH has done two J1e's with a PT tender. The later one is numbered 5344 and has PS2. Not sure what the engine number and Protosound version of the earlier version.

The later one looks like very nice engine. 

Pete

At this time I am not interested in mating the Lionel J3a with the separate sale tender, although that too is a handsome combo. The K-Line Hudson is also not an option due to the extensive modifications it would require.

 

The 18056 Hudson with separate sale PT tender is definitely the way to go for me since everything except the tender number is already cosmetically matched, and it looks like I just got the green light for the project based on D500's post 

 

Then there's always room for later upgrades, i.e. DC can motor, ERR Cruise, 4 chuffs, fan-driven smoke unit, the works. I'll call it the "Super 700E"  (The actual 5344 in this configuration was considered a "Super Hudson" in Al Stauffer's book).

I'm pretty sure that TM did something similar once when they did their video on all of Lionel's Hudsons and gave their opinion on the 18056. I like the 18056 and it's sounds, but not so much the tender anyways.

 

I might try this when I get the money, but I don't think anything would go wrong - I've switched tenders with quite a few Lionel steamers with wireless tether with no flukes. Besides, Lionel has done in the past offered tenders with upgraded sounds to add on to almost any older engine. So, I do look forward to seeing this in action if you plan to go through with this

"Passenger Train" Tender. It was a much larger tender that got the locos through longer trips with less stops. Al Stauffer described them as functionally superior but aesthetically abominable, and points out the sheer coal capacity of the tenders basically made it equivalent to a regular hopper car.

Make an extra, and I'll put in my preorder

Actually you sort of missed the whole point of the NYC PT = "Passenger Tender". As a result of its huge coal capacity, and ability to scoop water from track pans at speeds over 80MPH, the NYC passenger locomotives only needed coal ONCE between Harmon, NY and Chicago, Ill.. THAT was the beauty of the PT tenders, from an operational standpoint, even though the PT tenders where actually heavier, when fully loaded, than a Hudson.

I was just giving the general idea from what I remembered from the book; like I said I don't have it handy at the moment or else I would have just quoted it. Indeed, only one stop on those longer trips was less than the usual amount with the regular tenders, hence, "longer trips with less stops" is the big picture I was getting at. You are absolutely correct in any case.

Yes the Hudson has   Pulmore  motors but it is a great engine. I have one and had it upgraded to PS2. 

 

I am looking for a MTH PT tender with proto 2 from MTH to do the same thing you are Nick. 

Was the PT not for Pedestal Type?

Forgot to ask, D500, any chance of some pics? 

Here is a sloppy mock-up using K-Line's Scale Hudson 5343 and the Lionel Niagara's PT Tender. Of course on the proper Lionel engine the drivers will be scullin, the cab numbering will be the modern NYC font, and the paint and proportions of the engine will be better matched to the tender than what is shown below:

 

Another thought - I'm wondering how possible it is to retrofit the 1997 Hudson with the drive rods off the 28084 Dreyfuss Hudson. Those would be the correct "roller bearing" rods for the late configuration of 5344 I'm modelling.

 

I have tried this combination before right out of the box with no luck. It never dawned on me as d500 has stated that I had to reprogram the engine to 74. I will now give that a shot. Good luck with your project as well. The big goof up with that engine when it came out was the Vanderbilt tender which was a decision Jim Bunte had made. You used to be able a few years ago to pick these up for around 350-400 dollars. I now see them climbing back into the 500-600 dollar range. It is a nice engine as it has all the detailing of the 700e less the lubricator lever.

Your pursuit of details for this version of the Hudson is fantastic.  Finished pics and possibly a video would be much appreciated.  This type of thread would be great on the renamed 3-rail SCALE forum!

A super hudson would be awesome in legacy we could only hope one day lionel would make this model...Though i thought about making one to ...

Hey Nick,

If you do end up going forward with this project I would be interested in the left over Vanderbilt tender if it is made available, I got a little custom project of my own that I am thinking about.

I'm definitely going forward with the project and will let you know what I do with the tender. I want to hang on to it until everything is done on the off chance I would need electronics out of it, then I may or may not keep it for the sake of originality.

Thank you

You can compare them on the Lionel parts site. They have different part numbers and the mounting holes have different diameters. Wheel spacing may or may not be slightly different as well. Replacing the fasteners might achieve the same effect but I think the J1 has english threads and the J3 is metric.

Not to mention no replacement parts are listed for the Dreyfuss, check the ESE Hudson.

Might be time to pick up a small hobby lathe and start making your own parts.

 

Pete

Pete, the replacement parts for the Dreyfuss are right here:

 

http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/ReplacementParts/index.cfm?doAction=productPartFilter&number=6208084001&productID=b16430fd-1768-4180-9de8-0526cbf0e7cf

 

Only one of the rods is currently unavailable. But the rest are. I'd like to think if the wheel spacing is the same, the rods could be adapted with some tinkering.

 

It's not an absolutely mandatory detail either; if it can be done I'd like to try and if not then the original rods are fine. I do not have the patience to start making parts myself...

It appears its the main side rods that are unavailable and they are the ones unique to the roller bearing engines. I have checked all the other Lionel J3s and it looks like they are not the roller bearing version. Look at other manufacturers. I have used Weaver parts to repair 3rd Rail engines and Weaver has done a few Dreyfusses.

 

 

Pete

Whoops, I did overlook that bit. I'll keep digging.

If anything I'm more annoyed with finding the engine at a good price. It does look like they have gone up in price a bit as macdaddy pointed out, I was really hoping to get one at that $400 figure. The ones on eBay right now are all fantasy pricing.

Nick,

 

pay no more then $350-375 for the engine And tender.  The Guys on eBay are morons if they think they can get that money. 

 

Nick,

 You have planned a great project! The NYC J1 is a classic locomotive with perfect proportions. And, IMHO, the PT tenders suited them. The 5344 being the 'best looking' with the Scullin Drivers. I am looking forward to seeing your progress.

 

It's been pointed out to me that 5344 in this configuration has had the marker lights on the front of the boiler removed. I'll have to take them off my model too. Still looking.

Guess it won't matter in this case since Lionel's original USA made Hudsons had no illuminated marker lights.

Good news, I've located a Hudson from a forum member here. The tender is also scheduled for delivery in 3 days. Very excited to be able to move forward with this.

Was talking with the seller today and asked if the lubricator linkage was included on the model. While it is present, it appears to be in a different orientation than the original 1937 700E and 1990 1-700E. Almost looks like it's just backwards. Photos of other ones confirm all these models came with the linkage that way. Has anyone else noticed this? Can it be corrected?

 

 

Animation of 1-700E drive rods:

 

Nick

 

Yes, this can be fixed easily. You just have to remove the shell enough that you can remove and reattach the lubricator lever, which is flexible enough to bend in both directions. I've done the same with my 18005 scale Hudson when it was facing the wrong way.

Be forewarned you need a lot of patience and firm fingers or pliers to do this since it's a tedious procedure.

Very glad to hear this Thomas, thanks so much.

Are you sure that all of the lubricator linkages faced forward?