Is S scale still an option?

@Rusty Traque posted:

I've only used the Kadee HO couplers where I needed them a special application, like an offset shank on my SouthWind 2-8-0's:

and on any "vintage" cars I bought that already had them installed.  Otherwise, the HO couplers look too small to my eyes.

The distance between freight cars using 802's is about 3 scale feet, which is about what it is on the prototype, so I really don't see an issue there, but to each his own.

I can see where cost can be an issue, but as I usually buy a package of 802's when I buy a locomotive or car, that difference is blunted somewhat.  Plus every "scale" locomotive I've bought directly from AM, they've thrown in a package of 802's.  They even installed them on my last purchase: UP E8's...

The irony is I'll have to de-install them for body mounting and fill the pilot gaps with a modified insert, a project currently on a very crowded back burner.

Rusty

I'd forgotten about that thread; wow, 7 years ago. 

In any case, whatever works is what's "best". Lucky that Kadees of almost any scale are compatible...

Mark in Oregon

Here is a project I designed for those HiRailers that want easy Kadee coupler conversions.

More details at :  http://www.tuveson.com/Coupler...kadee-converter.html

It's been 3.5 months, I've not been able to find a single piece of ATSF rolling stock - scale or hi-rail.  When they've popped up, they sell before I have a chance at them.  When they sit, it's cause someones asking twice market - and they will get it given the lack of availablity.  I guess that while there aren't enough bodies out there for the companies to justify building stuff, there are a ton of scavengers picking at the carcass.  Back to the drawing board for me.

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

It's been 3.5 months, I've not been able to find a single piece of ATSF rolling stock - scale or hi-rail.

American models:

40' Boxcar

46' Flat Car

Gondola

Offset Twin Hopper

Covered Hopper

Offset Triple Hopper

Bay Window, Wood Caboose (although not real accurate for AT&SF)

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

American models:

40' Boxcar

46' Flat Car

Gondola

Offset Twin Hopper

Covered Hopper

Offset Triple Hopper

Bay Window, Wood Caboose (although not real accurate for AT&SF)

Rusty

And 72' ATSF heavyweight passenger 5 car set is 9% off.  They also have the 4 car Santa Fe Budd sets.  Plenty of engines, also... 4-8-4, S-12, E-8, EP-7, GP-9, GE U25B.

Doug Peck as both AM and SHS Santa Fe flats cars.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

It's been 3.5 months, I've not been able to find a single piece of ATSF rolling stock - scale or hi-rail.  When they've popped up, they sell before I have a chance at them.  When they sit, it's cause someones asking twice market - and they will get it given the lack of availablity.  I guess that while there aren't enough bodies out there for the companies to justify building stuff, there are a ton of scavengers picking at the carcass.  Back to the drawing board for me.

Are you looking for a particular brand of product, era or car type? As Tom and Rusty note, plenty available direct from AM and Port Lines. Plus Pikesville Models, the other S-only online retailer, has quite a few.

Re: AT&SF stock. I've managed to find a few...

Before I begin the build of the Quality Craft caboose kit, I'm (attempting) to convert this:

...just more fun and games...

Mark in Oregon

@Chuck K posted:

Are you looking for a particular brand of product, era or car type? As Tom and Rusty note, plenty available direct from AM and Port Lines. Plus Pikesville Models, the other S-only online retailer, has quite a few.

Seems most of what I'd be into was manufactured by PRS or S-Helper with some exceptions. Given the lack of availability - I just don't think S is the right fit for me - despite me really liking the scale of it.  Anything I'd want is simply too long out of production.

jacobpaul81:

Sadly, I understand firsthand what you're up against.

I too, loved the size. I tried my best to be satisfied in S scale in view of the state of the scale. The SHS quality was excellent, AM's quality was good, as were many of the products I was able to find.

Unfortunately, the lack of availability (took me a couple years or so to find only one OMI S-2, I had originally allowed for more than one), the lack of variety (missing key engine types I was wanting to model) and the demand in the secondary market (prices) were what put me back into HO.

Though S is a wonderful size, I was not the type that could deal with the shortcomings in view of my layout and theme goals. Alas, after moving to HO I've never looked back and thoroughly enjoy what I'm doing in HO scale.

Andre

@laming posted:

jacobpaul81:

Sadly, I understand firsthand what you're up against.

I too, loved the size. I tried my best to be satisfied in S scale in view of the state of the scale. The SHS quality was excellent, AM's quality was good, as were many of the products I was able to find.

Unfortunately, the lack of availability (took me a couple years or so to find only one OMI S-2, I had originally allowed for more than one), the lack of variety (missing key engine types I was wanting to model) and the demand in the secondary market (prices) were what put me back into HO.

Though S is a wonderful size, I was not the type that could deal with the shortcomings in view of my layout and theme goals. Alas, after moving to HO I've never looked back and thoroughly enjoy what I'm doing in HO scale.

Andre

100% my feeling.  I'm sure it's made worse right now due to a lack of non-internet market - but it's just bad.  I'll probably go up rather than down a scale and go with O and go back to dealing with the extra rail.  There's at least 3 x 3rd Rail locos I could see running and the Pecos Hudson.  Boxcars and Reefers are cheap and plentiful.  Such is life. 

Hi Joe:

You are correct that if one models a concept with a small scope, S scale can fill the bill.

Yes, there was a lot of product made over the decades.

If one can accept the limitations imposed by the state of S scale: One's S scale boat can sail merrily off into the sunset.

The caveats for me were:

* Though a lot of product was made over the decades, the trick was trying to find it, obtaining it, and if you do obtain it, then often you had to get it up to one's personal goals in looks and performance. Those aren't easy tasks for many modelers. The only products that performed in a manner I was used to (HO Kato-type performance) were the engine products of SHS. All the others had to be fiddled with and often re-powered, or worse.

* Plus, no matter how you slice it, the variety just isn't there for diesel-freaks like myself that like a wide spectrum of engine makes, models, variations, etc. The main downfall point for me was switcher selection. (At the time I was going to attempt an urban KC industrial switching district.) Aside from white metal kits for an EMD and an Alco S, or a limited run resin flat-kit for an FM, your only two options in easily worked plastic were SHS EMD's and AM's Baldwin S-12. Unfortunately, the AM S-12 has road trucks under it which really needs to be replaced with the correct type trucks for the engine to ever truly look like it should. Guess what trucks it needs? Yup, SHS trucks that SHS used under their EMD switchers. Those are long gone as single purchases, so now the only way would be purchase an SHS EMD and take the trucks off it. When finished adapting the trucks to the AM frame, you finally have a Baldwin S-12 that has accurate trucks... and a high $$ SHS EMD that doesn't.

Then there's the ubiquitous GP7 in S scale: None. You have to purchase the AM GP9, then find/purchase the GP7 long hood kit and bash/modify to get a GP7. The railroads I was trying to model had scads of GP7's... but only a few GP9's.

I truly gave it the old "Gung-ho!" attempt to model in S:

Now, IF I had been able to accept the following:

* Go with high rail wheels.

* Go with a track system available for same.

* Accept what could be found and obtained, and accept that additions to the S scale offerings were going to be a long time coming, or never.

...then maybe it could have turned out different.

However, I couldn't accept the above then, and doubt that I could now. I still seem to enjoy small profile rail and product variety way too much. (Besides, IF I was going to up-size, it would be because of dexterity and eyesight issues, and then it would be traditional 3-rail, with a heavy Lionel PW presence, and enjoy model trains until I can't.)

Thus I wasn't able to "do it my way" in S, so I made like a rat and abandoned ship.

Andre "Fleeing Rat" Ming

@laming posted:

Thus I wasn't able to "do it my way" in S, so I made like a rat and abandoned ship.

Andre "Fleeing Rat" Ming

Don't be so hard on yourself, Andre.  Your feelings about S are nothing I haven't heard in some form or another over the past 30 some-odd years.  With what the likes of Athearn, Scale Trains, Rapido, Walthers and others are putting out in HO, it's a siren song that is almost impossible to resist.  In fact, some of Rapido's announcements have made me weak in the knees.

I was fortunate by getting into S back in 1985 as the scale grew in the same direction I was interested in.  That doesn't mean I don't recognize it's shortcomings.  I was always uncomfortable telling folks when displaying with my modular group at train shows that you really can't find this stuff in most hobby shops (even though the local Des Plaines Hobbies is pretty well stocked) and they would either have to special order or scour the internet for S.

It takes a certain fortitude to be in S, even during the "glory years" of mid-1990's-early 2000's.

Rusty

I could live with the limited motive power options - which is why I considered testing the S waters  - but I can't live with the inability to locate even one piece of period rolling stock for my road - which isn't exactly some off-the-beaten path railroad.  It was only the largest railroad in the US.   Not that the climate in O is any better - the Atlas / MTH announcement does not appear to include steam era equipment.  At least in O, there's plenty of Atlas / Weaver floating around to purchase.  HO would certainly be the better long term choice - but it lacks heft.   

Every scale has it's problems.

From afar, I might observe that with MTH relinquishing its death grip on the "S" line products, the patient's heart monitor is now showing more than a flat line.  You've got a chance.

George

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

HO would certainly be the better long term choice - but it lacks heft.   

Every scale has it's problems.

Heft is relative.

Brendan

@Brendan posted:

Heft is relative.

Brendan

Eye of the beholder.   

Please forgive me, but I continue to read this thread with some bemusement and amusement. Those of us who collect, repair, operate and enjoy Gilbert Flyer just roll right along. There is something to be said for being in the hobby just for the fun of it. There are large quantities of vintage Gilbert and Lionel production 'out there' at very affordable prices as well as the new Legacy AF, AM, and SHS-derived trains which are Gilbert-compatible. Gilbert (and the earlier Lionel production) AF trains have a rich history, undeniable charm, and the big plus of having been made in the good ol' USA. And, there is nothing about the AF universe that prevents one from building beautiful realistic scenery, usually with modern hi-rail track. On the other hand, one can build a strictly authentic Gilbert-themed layout by indulging in historically correct vintage 'rivet counting' of another kind.

Portlines Hobbies is backed up in faithfully fulfilling orders for Flyer parts, so there must be a lot of folks still repairing and operating Flyer. My current Flyer project is bringing back a friend's boyhood 322 to service.

So, heck, yes. S is definitely an option. It depends in which church pew one sits.

Respectfully,

Bob

@Bob Bubeck posted:

Please forgive me, but I continue to read this thread with some bemusement and amusement. Those of us who collect, repair, operate and enjoy Gilbert Flyer just roll right along. There is something to be said for being in the hobby just for the fun of it. There are large quantities of vintage Gilbert and Lionel production 'out there' at very affordable prices as well as the new Legacy AF, AM, and SHS-derived trains which are Gilbert-compatible. Gilbert (and the earlier Lionel production) AF trains have a rich history, undeniable charm, and the big plus of having been made in the good ol' USA. And, there is nothing about the AF universe that prevents one from building beautiful realistic scenery, usually with modern hi-rail track. On the other hand, one can build a strictly authentic Gilbert-themed layout by indulging in historically correct vintage 'rivet counting' of another kind.

Portlines Hobbies is backed up in faithfully fulfilling orders for Flyer parts, so there must be a lot of folks still repairing and operating Flyer. My current Flyer project is bringing back a friend's boyhood 322 to service.

So, heck, yes. S is definitely an option. It depends in which church pew one sits.

Respectfully,

Bob

Pretty much.  The thread title should have been is "s scale" still an option. 

If ya want Flyer, yer golden. Not my thing - at all.  And if it were, O-27 is readily available. 

@Bob Bubeck posted:

Please forgive me, but I continue to read this thread with some bemusement and amusement. Those of us who collect, repair, operate and enjoy Gilbert Flyer just roll right along. There is something to be said for being in the hobby just for the fun of it. There are large quantities of vintage Gilbert and Lionel production 'out there' at very affordable prices as well as the new Legacy AF, AM, and SHS-derived trains which are Gilbert-compatible. Gilbert (and the earlier Lionel production) AF trains have a rich history, undeniable charm, and the big plus of having been made in the good ol' USA. And, there is nothing about the AF universe that prevents one from building beautiful realistic scenery, usually with modern hi-rail track. On the other hand, one can build a strictly authentic Gilbert-themed layout by indulging in historically correct vintage 'rivet counting' of another kind.

Portlines Hobbies is backed up in faithfully fulfilling orders for Flyer parts, so there must be a lot of folks still repairing and operating Flyer. My current Flyer project is bringing back a friend's boyhood 322 to service.

So, heck, yes. S is definitely an option. It depends in which church pew one sits.

Respectfully,

Bob

Well said Bob!

Time to put this topic to bed.

Gunny

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

Pretty much.  The thread title should have been is "s scale" still an option.

If ya want Flyer, yer golden. Not my thing - at all.  And if it were, O-27 is readily available.

Well, "S scale" is/was very much understood as the root of the question. However, the desires voiced here (and everyone is entitled to their desires) are often very specific and narrowly focused. The historic route for modelers so inclined is to become modeling craftspersons and build to their specific needs motive power, rolling stock, and structures. I know a number of 2-rail O scalers who model every required piece to very accurately represent a defined railroad of an historic time and place. If a manufacturer makes something that 'fits', maybe with a bit of modification, fine. But, they do not have an expectation that a manufacturer will cater to their desires upfront.

A difficulty with this thread is that someone 'dropping in' might get the impression that S gauge is hopeless. Well, it is not for the majority who may be more flexible in their desires. OK?

Respectfully,

Bob

PS: There is a big difference between Gilbert Flyer, its descendants (e.g., AM) and (gasp!) O-27. Gilbert made that point in the catalogs from the get go.

@Bob Bubeck posted:

Well, "S scale" is/was very much understood as the root of the question. However, the desires voiced here (and everyone is entitled to their desires) are often very specific and narrowly focused. The historic route for modelers so inclined is to become modeling craftspersons and build to their specific needs motive power, rolling stock, and structures. I know a number of 2-rail O scalers who model every required piece to very accurately represent a defined railroad of an historic time and place. If a manufacturer makes something that 'fits', maybe with a bit of modification, fine. But, they do not have an expectation that a manufacturer will cater to their desires upfront.

A difficulty with this thread is that someone 'dropping in' might get the impression that S gauge is hopeless. Well, it is not for the majority who may be more flexible in their desires. OK?

Respectfully,

Bob

PS: There is a big difference between Gilbert Flyer, its descendants (e.g., AM) and (gasp!) O-27. Gilbert made that point in the catalogs from the get go.

Problem solved.

@Bob Bubeck posted:

A difficulty with this thread is that someone 'dropping in' might get the impression that S gauge is hopeless. Well, it is not for the majority who may be more flexible in their desires. OK?

Respectfully,

Bob

PS: There is a big difference between Gilbert Flyer, its descendants (e.g., AM) and (gasp!) O-27. Gilbert made that point in the catalogs from the get go.

The fact that we can openly discuss S, warts and all, indicates to me that S isn't hopeless.

Difficult yes, but not hopeless.

Complaints about S are just as valid as the reasons to be in S.

It's much better than elsewhere that when such subjects are brought up, the response is usually "S is the builders scale, you always can build it," or "XYZ Company made that 20 years ago, we don't need another one."  Both are unhelpful dead-ender responses IMHO.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

It's much better than elsewhere that when such subjects are brought up, the response is usually "S is the builders scale, you always can build it," or "XYZ Company made that 20 years ago, we don't need another one."  Both are unhelpful dead-ender responses IMHO.

As a reader of and sometimes contributor to the forum to which you are referring, I got a chuckle from this Rusty.  If that forum had been my only exposure to S enthusiasts 5 years ago, I would have refrained from social participation in the hobby so as to avoid being talked down to.

I've already put in my 2 cents worth... but here is 2 more. 🙂

I actually find the challenge of looking for S scale/ gauge stuff as being part of the allure; there's millions of HO items "out there", and tons of O ( both of which I like, by the way). The thrill of the hunt for S is, again, part of the attraction for me. I get it that that's not for everyone, but it works in my case. 😁

Mark in Oregon

Well I finally won an auction for an S-helper car.  Actually got a handful - but just the one Santa Fe.  This made me chuckle - S scale 40' Reefer in front of of O scale 50' boxcar.   Santa Fe logo is the exact same size. 

graphic. 

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

Well I finally won an auction for an S-helper car.  Actually got a handful - but just the one Santa Fe.  This made me chuckle - S scale 40' Reefer in front of of O scale 50' boxcar.   Santa Fe logo is the exact same size.

You can guarantee that the S Helper graphics are as close to prototypes as they could get in size, shape, color, and position.

Scale trains acquired the MTH (who acquired SHS) S-line this year. There is a future. Mark

@barrister.2u posted:

Scale trains acquired the MTH (who acquired SHS) S-line this year. There is a future. Mark

Unfortunately, we're still probably over a year away before Scale Trains releases their first S Scale endeavor.

Rusty

@Chuck K posted:

You can guarantee that the S Helper graphics are as close to prototypes as they could get in size, shape, color, and position.

I was able to grab a couple of the MKT Single-Sheathed Boxcars for $40 per car.  Graphics and Details are top notch right down to the flat paint. 

I've been trying to obtain the ATSF single-sheathed and the War Bonds rebuilt from S-helper but I keep getting beat out on auctions. 

@Rusty Traque posted:

American Models 2900 class 4-8-4's (Left, dolled up a little.  Right, straight from the box.  (Still available with scale wheels.)

I was finally able to snag a Scale DC 2900 class 4-8-4 "Heavy Mountain".  I'm expecting it to show up in the mail today.  I note that these (Rusty's) are numbered 2922 and 2920 - but mine is 2923. The image on AM's website is 2922.  Is this 2923 an older run?



I'd been teetering back and forth on O - S for a while. It's been difficult to find one of these for a price I could bare - but one finally came through. 

Isn't a Mountain a 4-8-2?

Ed

Yes, and a 4-8-4 is known as a "Northern."

Or a "Pocono" or a "Niagara" or...🙂

Mark in Oregon 🎄

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

I was finally able to snag a Scale DC 2900 class 4-8-4 "Heavy Mountain".  I'm expecting it to show up in the mail today.  I note that these (Rusty's) are numbered 2922 and 2920 - but mine is 2923. The image on AM's website is 2922.  Is this 2923 an older run?



I'd been teetering back and forth on O - S for a while. It's been difficult to find one of these for a price I could bare - but one finally came through.

If your model has white lettering and an incandescent bulb, it's from the first run of Northerns.  The later run had grayish lettering to simulate the imitation aluminum lettering Santa Fe used.  Also the headlight is an LED on the later run.  Below is are images of a second run Northern.

As I recall, AM did two numbers in each run of the Santa Fe Northerns.  The LED looks orange when off, but when lit it's very white.

@PRR1950 posted:

Yes, and a 4-8-4 is known as a "Northern."

In Santa Fe parlance, they were initially referred to as "Heavy Mountains."  Later they simply used their "class" (first in the series) numbers on all their steam locomotives: i.e. 3751 class, 2900 class, etc.

The UP referred to Northerns as 800's.  N&W, J's.

Plus, that which we call a Northern was also known as: Big Apple(CofG,) Dixie(NC&StL,) Empire Builder(GN,) General(RF&P,) Greenbrier(C&O,) Golden State(SP; later General Service,) Governor(RF&P again,) Niagara(NYC,) Niagra(NdeM,) Pocono(DL&W,) Potomac(WM,) Wyoming(LV.)

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

If your model has white lettering and an incandescent bulb, it's from the first run of Northerns.  The later run had grayish lettering to simulate the imitation aluminum lettering Santa Fe used.  Also the headlight is an LED on the later run.  Below is are images of a second run Northern.

As I recall, AM did two numbers in each run of the Santa Fe Northerns.  The LED looks orange when off, but when lit it's very white.

In Santa Fe parlance, they were initially referred to as "Heavy Mountains."  Later they simply used their "class" (first in the series) numbers on all their steam locomotives: i.e. 3751 class, 2900 class, etc.

The UP referred to Northerns as 800's.  N&W, J's.

Plus, that which we call a Northern was also known as: Big Apple(CofG,) Dixie(NC&StL,) Empire Builder(GN,) General(RF&P,) Greenbrier(C&O,) Golden State(SP; later General Service,) Governor(RF&P again,) Niagara(NYC,) Niagra(NdeM,) Pocono(DL&W,) Potomac(WM,) Wyoming(LV.)

Rusty

Ok - this one looks white - so it's probably first run.  Thanks Rusty!

... and Rusty is 100% Correct.  ATSF did not own any "Northerns".   I've posted on this before - they were known by the road as "Heavy Mountains", "New Mountains", or in early schematics - "Mountain 4-wheel trailer".  They were never referred to as a "Northern" and there is zero documentation of that term from the road.  When 3751 was approved for the National Registry - it was as the oldest "4-8-4", not as the oldest "Northern". The application specifically refers to the locomotive as a "Heavy Mountain."  This is also why the ATSF numbered it 3751 - a continuation of the previous 3700 class Mountains.

White letters, White Light.  So first run.  Very hefty.  First S scale locomotive I've gotten to see. 

@Strummer posted:

Or a "Pocono" or a "Niagara" or...🙂

Mark in Oregon 🎄

Model railroading is rife with inaccurate terminology. Note that the Eastern Roads where the toy manufacturers were / are located all use correct terms for their regional locomotives - Mohawk, Niagra, Greenbrier, etc.

ATSF was a mostly southwestern and western road - and they were big on their southwestern brand.  Terms like Northern, Hudson, or Berkshire were foreign to them and not "on brand".   Terms like Texas, Prairie, Pacific, and Mountain were totally acceptable.  The 4-8-4s and 4-6-4s were refered to as Heavy Mountains and Heavy Pacifics by the road - though they could have just as easily come up with new names - like Southwesterns and Kansans.

It's taken long enough, but I finally was able to pick up some ATSF S-Helper Boxcars off the used market - along with an American Models car.

In order to be in S, you must be super Stubborn.

Nice cars.