Is the Lionel Pullmor Motor Officially Dead?

In another thread someone is asking whether the current incarnation of the #41 switch will have a pullmore motor. Apparently the catalog does not say.

Lionel Atomic:  The brush plates (2020m-30) used on the 1946 726 Berkshire and 1946 2020/671 Turbines are marked "Atomic". Some of the later brush plates (671M-5) for those motors are also marked as such.  Other's are not marked. So far, I do not see a pattern on when the "Atomic" marking was dropped.

I never heard of any other motors being referred to as "Atomic".

You must be refering to this guy....

When you run it,  requires monitoring with the Lionel Geiger Counter.  

Joe

That Atomic Motor is a piece of work. It was an engineering masterpiece designed at a time when privately owned corporations like Lionel prided themselves on providing the highest quality possible. Notice even the small details like how easy it is to change the brushes without removing the brush plate.

We will never see another Atomic motor again. Todays Wall Street big corporate mentality is to use low quality materials, employ unskilled cheap ignorant foreign labor, and sell the product at the highest possible price. 

I took some pictures of a few other brush plates.
My red 671M-5 brush plates all carry the "Atomic" marking.

My black 671RM-1 brush plate does not have "Atomic"

My black 364M-24 brush plate does not have "Atomic" either.

Note that these brush plates do not the removable, threaded brush holders like the 2020M-30 (1946) plate.

Sure there is a rich history with the name but at then end of the day if there is no profit there is no Lionel. Indications are Lionel revenue is less than $100MM a year - that is TINY in the grand scheme of things, which means Lionel has to be extremely careful regarding finances, and the "Wall Street/big corporate" mentality is part of that, which is what Lionel needs, given Lionel has struggled off and on mightily since the '50s.

A modern DC motor equivalent to a Pullmor or Atomic (replaceable brushes, beefy case, integral worm shaft, etc.) would be relatively enormously expensive to produce and would either detract from Lionel spending money on other things, greatly decrease profit margin, or worse of all, drive customers into the open arms of competitors who use cheap DC motors. I loath the cheap hobby DC motor but it's that or probably nothing.

>>>That Atomic Motor is a piece of work.<<

Could be wrong here but didn't Richard Kughn duplicate the atomic motor for the scale Hudson in 1990?

Could be the only modern era reissue of the prewar classic..

Joe 

I shared my thoughts about the Pullmor earlier on this thread (did anyone even watch the video?)  If you're curious, click my name and look at my posts.

However I would like to add that the GEAR RATIO, and the design of the gear train are at least as important as the motor to the overall operating experience.  Throw in electronic speed control, and you can get away with using a $5 (wholesale cost) motor in a premium train.  Whether you might choose to buy one comes down to whether you care more about the means, or just the end.  Personally if I'm going to dig into my bank account, I like to know that there's high quality throughout.  -Ted

Hello JC642!

The Pullmor for the 1990 version of the Hudson was beefed up, plus, the Field & Armature were twice as thick as the prewar versions. It was not referred to as the Atomic Motor, but I'm sure it was powerful & I understand that the Hudsons benefited very much from this Motor. BTW- It was also used in the Reading & Chessie T-1s, plus the Mowhawks made during the 1990s. Take Care.

I just looked at one of my 5340 Scale Hudsons and it does have a heavy duty motor in it. It is similar in size to the Atomic but has the open end brush holders on it like the old Berkshire 736. The engine is a very strong puller. It pulls 8 aluminum passenger cars and a heavy scale tender with ease but since it is without Magnetraction, using it on grades is where it falls a little short. It was a great re-run of the 1937 Lionel classic, top quality, detailed, Made In America, sold at a reasonable price, has smoke  rail sounds and looks excellent. IMO, it doesn't get much better than this.

It is a beautiful piece of machinery.  The one I cleaned up was so well made compared to later motors.  I think I might try to find one just to display! 

I don't know where the motors were made but my Hudson 700E reissue from 1990-91 is a fine piece of machinery.  It is a gorgeous runner, even after hundreds and hundreds of hours of use.

That being said, I have can-motored and Pullmor powered locos, and motors are almost never the issue.  Can motors are very durable and run at lower speeds, which is what the hobby today requires.  As I mentioned in a different discussion, my only real concern with can motors is that it seems (and my view may not be fully educated) that there is a great variety of them -- if one fails down the line and it is a one-off motor, it raises concerns.  If the major manufacturers can all pick a certain size like a 385 and use that, the chance of an issue finding a replacement down the road is nill.

>>>I don't know where the motors were made but my Hudson 700E reissue from 1990-91 is a fine piece of machinery.  It is a gorgeous runner, even after hundreds and hundreds of hours of use.<<

I agree, for me its a top shelf modern era shelqueen.i 

I think blame for the demise of the Pullmor motor if it really is dead can be put squarely on demand for speed control.   For most, its a most have feature today.

If only that guy hadn't walked off with the prototype, here's a picture of what could have been.  

OOooo bright colors Lots of pretty purple poles

What is it? When was it? Where did you?

Actually, the coinage by Gilbert of the trade name "Pull-mor" coincided with both a motor redesign and the use of traction tires circa 1952-53. The armatures were redone with narrower winding slots in order to concentrate the magnetic flux. Corresponding modifications were made to the field assemblies.

I do not see any conflict in the use of open frame three pole motors and the newer can motors. Can motors give one quiet, smooth operation with the attribute of readily accomplished speed control with the proper circuitry. For those who wish to experience the complete authentic prewar and postwar 'feel' in which one "drives" the train and experiences the growl and ozone, open frame three pole motors are the ticket. Many of us enjoy either depending on our mood for the evening.

The Pullmor motor in my sample of a the traditional FA in the recent CC UP Anniversary set runs very smoothly with good 'feel' for its type, so it is possible to obtain a satisfactory China-sourced Pullmor. The drawback, as I see it, with speed control is a certain lack of physical involvement. Speed controlled trains are rather zombie-like.

YMMV

Bob 

A lot of AC motors have speed control and sensing in other uses.  I am sure a Pulmore like motor could have been built to do this, but I do imagine it would have been much more expensive than a can motor.  So would the added cost show a benefit in capability, or have marketing value?  Would the profit margin be available to make it worth while?  I think not.  Folks are over the paradigm of DC motors are cheap and AC motor are elite or better.

Heck, even Pre War guys I know who run their engines prefer the DC motor version MTH makes.

Not saying others don't like the original, just say enough of the market has gone to accepting can motors just like the majority of the market accepts Command engines.  G

"just like the majority of the market accepts Command engines"

Who makes the nice conventional versions without the sounds, and commands.

Its hard not to accept, that which you have no choice in. "1+2=3

1=2=I don't know, tell me please?".

And to still quietly pay for it regardless? Mooo, Bbaaa, Where is the Kool-Aid I'm parched?

"Command Ready", and strictly optional systems additions for "Command equipped" and "sound ready", are options presentable, but not offered in O. (but are in HO,N,On30).

That extra price could be filling the conventional runners want, for a better PW concept, quality(military grade machining quality was once a boast)(pitmann dc is quality).

You can add the goodies, nobody stops you, its an option. (Heck some came with the boards uninstalled in small scales.)

There are two, and three rail versions of trains by others. That's got a bigger market than leaving stuff out for the PW folk? Mooo

Williams is the most bare bones conventional runners out there. But almost, or all, are can motors I think. And wouldn't be surprised if a "system" and its costs, was force fed there soon too(I predict if Blue rail takes off at all, they will do it too).        

Is that portion of the market, still not using command, still buying new at its potential? No. That portion of the hobby is also the most interested in brand loyalty I bet

Is PW market value on the rise? Mmm what new thing could sway the biggest chunk of that dollar?!... A cost effective conventional version of everything with a big L on it.

 Like telling a happy old copper scrap man, "you need to buy an Escalade with On-star and look for silver scrap".  

(remember model t diehards daily driving into the 60s, still smiling)

Same argument fail about new vs old Coke, when market research forgot the old fans. Though both managed to exist together for about twenty years, Coke classic won out.

(not a prediction, just an example that numbers as predictions vary).   

I see you speak in the ancient tongue...  The gods of consumer and marketing say it.  The accountants of conventional and command confirmed it.  The horses may have been led to the river, but they did not have to have their heads held down to drink, soon the horses called for more water and better water.  The ancient accounting gods saw it in the ledger.  Lower sales in one and growing sales in the other.  At which point the King decreed all shall have water.   G

Like guys who prefer original vintage Indian motorcycles, there will always be O gauge guys who prefer open frame AC motors!

Of course.  But if only 10 in one hundred like old Indians, and 90 like HD.  Will the dealer carry Indian or HD?  Will the manufacture make I or HD?  I think that is the issue.  Do they still use Carbs or is FI now the standard.  Sure, some guys still like pulling a choke and kick starting, but.....not many; and they certainly would not want to pay more for the experience. 

By the way, I have an extensive Alco and Diesel AC motor fleet.  About half and half between conventional and command.   G

The choice of motor in an O gauge engine today comes down to one thing-COST. The universal open frame Pullmor could run every bit as smooth as the can motor IF it was designed to work that way. A five pole armature (instead of the three pole) would make a huge difference in performance over a wider range of speeds, but when Lionel went to their motor design , they were thinking like a kid and building in speed. When I was 11 most of my friends that ran trains wanted to run them at the fastest speed possible. It was a challenge to see how fast we could run them without derailing them and many times we ran then off the tracks. The three pole pullmor did just fine for this application. Scale speeds were unheard of. Today can motors can provide better speed control while costing a fraction of the cost of a can motor

Not everyone wants the stuff made today.

Guys that want vintage Indians (or Harleys for that matter) wouldn't be looking at a new bike show room for their rides. The makers have passed them by. Like O gaugers who prefer Open Frame AC motors and electro-mechanical reverse units. Lionel or MTH could go bankrupt tomorrow (not that I  am wanting that to happen) and it would not even phase some people's O gauge purchases. Lots of people still buying, collecting and even running original Ives and Dorfan trains.

There may never be a brand new off the factory line Pullmor ever again, but there will probably remain a remnant of folks restoring them and maybe even making repro parts. Just because something is no longer made doesn't necessarily mean it's dead!  LOL

I'm holding out for a big three unit A-B-A  F3 set with all units powered with twin, horizontal AC/DC motors.  They can have solid state electricals, but no sound please.  The roar of those six big, wound field, spur geared plants will trailer anything out there you could imagine!.....Think Lionel would ever make it?  Even if I offered to pay for every nickel of the tooling costs....it would never happen in a million years  One can only dream of such a fantasy chooch ! .......but what a dream she is !

Why sure.  Every train maker could go out of business today and no one would want for decades.  Heck we all have too many trains.  Natural attrition keeps stuff coming out in the market. 

I was only responding to the comment of producing a new Lionel's PM like the stolen motor.

I can tell you from direct Hobby shop selling experience though.  The people who come in and spend "retail" money want command, sounds, smoke and cruise.

Very few that come in for used PW trains want to spend much money.  So generalizing from the retail market......G 

It was stolen at York

We had two T-1s operating on our display layout for years.  They ATE brushes!  I'm not sure why.  They'd run for a few hours then start slowing down.  Our Pennsy B-6s were much better, but the postwar engines (F-3s, 736s) ran the longest before changing brushes.

quote:

They ATE brushes!

Some Modern era brushes were extremely soft. But I imagine you are using the same one across all your locos.

I'm used to dreaming.... *hey that's the attitude than got Williams started.

Originally Posted by GGG:

They might not be spending money because they aren't interested in buying the "extra weight" is my point. Its a strategy, chosen from many, that alienates an original core audience to an extent.

In comic sales, I sold Black & white underground press, often at a loss, for the dollars spent around them. Also, a reputation was built on "having it all", and being as much about being good for the hobby, as being about my growing stack of one eyed buddies ($)

(not that you & your place aren't great G, never been there..yet . Just debating "in store ad tactics")

.... and I never like to see people left out of anything etc.  

Yup.  I never did an intensive exam of those motors, but I'm guessing that the Korean motors may have been off or sloppy in their specs, causing the increased wear.  I never heard of it happening in the US built Hudsons.

I want one!!!