Issues running my '88 Lionel Hiawatha

If you get a manual for ANY lionel train with a mechanical E-unit of that era, the basic instructions and oiling are the same.   Even a postwar manual will do.

Put each of the passenger cars on the track and push by hand.   If they don't move well start checking oiling, wheel clearances, anything dragging on the wheels, bent axel or truck causing excess drag.   

One drop of synthetic, light grade oil per wheel so they turn easily on the axle.  Drive wheels oil at the bushing where the axle enters the frame, 1 drop only.  I have special oil bottles with a long thin needle tip to get to these areas.

It is 26 years old so check where the wires are soldered to the pickups on the cars.  Insulation and to the light bulbs in the vestibules.   Make sure there are no breaks or shorts.    Light bulbs are tight.   They tend to loosen.

You probably figured out pushing the button down to connect/disconnect the cars to the vestibules.  If the vestibules are not connected just right they will fight turning.

DO NOT oil the center rail pickups.   

Clean the wheels to remove any dirt or old oil.    Center rail pickups also.

Whistle  Usually will not work going slow.   With the cars on and voltage up it should work.  It is normal for conventional locomotives to Speed up or down a little when applying the whistle.  It depends if they replaced the "DIODE" in the transformer if it will work well for whistle or not.   It is applying a DC current to the track.    If going at a good clip and applying the whistle causes the train to stop, there is some problem.    Did this set come with a whistle button?   A box with a button and 2 wires comming out of it.  If so it hooks up to the A on the Transformer with one wire and the other wire goes to A on the track replacing the A connection from track to transformer.   

Run the train and use this button to whistle if so supplied.

The E-unit has 2 settings.  ON Cycle thru FNRNFNR etc at each power off/on.  Or Off stay as is.  You can get the train in Nuetral, Reverse or Forward and switch the E-unit off and it will remain in that mode.

If you put your email in your profile I can send you a manual for the Lionchief passenger cars.  2 pages, but the same thing as your Hiawatha passenger cars.

@Big Steve , Your first problem is that the wire to the track is just too small to carry the current from a KW to this train set.

Let me reply to what I can:

• Put each of the passenger cars on the track and push by hand.   If they don't move well start checking oiling, wheel clearances, anything dragging on the wheels, bent axel or truck causing excess drag.  

I did this, and they actually move quite well. No resistance or anything to indicate as such.

• Drive wheels oil at the bushing where the axle enters the frame, 1 drop only.

Can you provide a photo of this specific area?

• I have special oil bottles with a long thin needle tip to get to these areas.

What kind would you recommend from, say, Amazon?

• Did this set come with a whistle button?

No, as far as I can tell, it does not come with one. And this is after seeing quite a few photos of the set being sold online. It's just the engine, tender, and the cars, and that's what I got as well. Which leads me to believe, and this is my gut talking, that the whistle issue lies with the KW, not so much the engine, as the engine was tested and was said to have had a working whistle.

• The E-unit has 2 settings.  ON Cycle thru FNRNFNR etc at each power off/on.  Or Off stay as is.  You can get the train in Neutral, Reverse or Forward and switch the E-unit off and it will remain in that mode.

I guess I'm a bit confused at this part - how do I simply just turn it off?

• If you put your email in your profile I can send you a manual for the Lionchief passenger cars.  2 pages, but the same thing as your Hiawatha passenger cars.

Updated for you @VHubbard.

@ADCX Rob, what would you suggest then as a replacement for power?

@Big Steve posted:

@ADCX Rob, what would you suggest then as a replacement for power?

16-14 gauge wire.

@Big Steve posted:

...this is my gut talking, that the whistle issue lies with the KW, not so much the engine, as the engine was tested and was said to have had a working whistle...

The whistle is polarity sensitive. Try switching U & B at the transformer.

@ADCX Rob posted:

16-14 gauge wire.

Does Lionel sell a power track with these wires already on them, or would I have to modify my power track and swap out those old wires with these new ones? If so, is that a hard process to do for a newbie like myself, and where online would be a good place for that specific gauge of wiring?

@ADCX Rob posted:

The whistle is polarity sensitive. Try switching U & B at the transformer.

What exactly do you mean? Plug my black wire into B, and the red wire into U? That would be switching them around from what they are now.

So @ADCX Rob, after doing some extensive Googling, I finally found what I hope would be the answer I'm looking for when it comes to getting more power.

I watched this helpful YouTube video, and I came across a solder-less kit over at Harbor Freight. Question is, would that kit have what I would need for the 16-14 gauge wiring and, more importantly, is everything in that kit I would need to be able to connect to a FasTrack itself? I use power fork end connectors, and there are a few in that kit, but I'm not sure which ones would matter, or what color I'd want to use.

You have plenty of power, it's just not getting to the track.

Those wires on FasTrack are designed for starter sets, they plug in to the bottom of the track. You can use lamp cord if needed to use larger wire, and .110 connectors found on Amazon to make your own feeder wires.

@Big Steve posted:

Plug my black wire into B, and the red wire into U? That would be switching them around from what they are now.

Correct.

@Big Steve posted:

Does Lionel sell a power track with these wires already on them, or would I have to modify my power track and swap out those old wires with these new ones?

There's nothing special about that "power track" except for the notch in the roadbed, all of the full-size track pieces have the same connectors on the bottom.

@ADCX Rob, would this NOTE:  ebay listing removed per TOS selling a 14 AWG gauge wire be what I'm looking for?

@Big Steve posted:

@ADCX Rob, would this NOTE:  ebay listing removed per TOS selling a 14 AWG gauge wire be what I'm looking for?

No ebay listings are allowed Steve....review the TOS which you agreed to.

This topic was moved from an MTH to a Lionel forum which is more appropriate for the topic.

@ADCX Rob, I switched the power forks around for the whistle, and still nothing. The train slowed down, and no whistle came out. I'm almost at the point where I want to get the KW and set serviced by someone around where I live, because I just want it to work, and I don't feel confident enough in myself to repair these things without causing further issues. I'll buy the 14 gauge wire soon, and see where that takes me. At this point, I don't know if I was lied to by the vendor I bought the train from (who said the whistle worked), or if I have a bad KW, or, if like you said, I just don't have enough juice with the terminal FasTrack (which, according to this post here, is about an 18 gauge). However, when talking to someone else, they said an 18 gauge would be plenty, doubting even something as thin as 22 gauge would be causing my issues. They went on to say thicker wires will only make a difference if my wires are actually getting hot and adding too much resistance, and if that's happening with 18 gauge wires, something is wrong and causing way too much current draw. But, I actually don't know if I agree with that. Where you were coming from makes more sense to me, given the weight and pull of this train and what's required to run it. So, I'll give it a shot with the 14 gauge wire that's both red and black.

@OGR posted:

This topic was moved from an MTH to a Lionel forum which is more appropriate for the topic.

That's weird, I made this post in the Lionel Service Questions forum this morning, I don't know it migrated over to the MTH forum? 

Steve,  is the train stopping just on the curves or the straight away also ?

You picture looks like you have a tight radius which can put more drag on the train.  Will the cars roll around the curve easily without the engine ?

@boomer0622 posted:

Steve,  is the train stopping just on the curves or the straight away also ?

You picture looks like you have a tight radius which can put more drag on the train.  Will the cars roll around the curve easily without the engine ?

I'm not home right now, but from memory, the train runs moderately fast at first, then all around slows down. It was able to make the curves just fine at first, but again, you can tell there's a loss of power happening, and when you stop running the KW and plug it back in to try again, you can hear the engine really struggling to try, and I'd wager that it would not matter if it's on the O-72 curve or on a straight away.

And to that point, when I just drag the cars around the track by hand, they roll right along it like butter. It requires O-72 per Lionel.

Basics - have you confirmed with a voltmeter that each section of the Fastrack is getting proper voltage when powered up  ?

Haven't run mine in awhile, but...

The engine is a bit light and underpowered for the train, so it can struggle, especially in curves.  It needs at least O72 curves.  As I recall, it needs to be running fairly fast for the whistle to kick in, and using it can slow the engine down. 

Assuming that there's no binding in the mechanism and the engine and cars are properly lubed, that's just the nature of the beast.

@ADCX Rob posted:

@Big Steve , Your first problem is that the wire to the track is just too small to carry the current from a KW to this train set.

That’s what Lionel recommends for Fast Track. I use 16 or 14 gauge wire and make my own connection wires. It really is just to light for what it is supposed to do.

@Richie C. posted:

Basics - have you confirmed with a voltmeter that each section of the Fastrack is getting proper voltage when powered up  ?

I have not. Again, I'm new to the hobby, so I don't have that tool, nor would I know how to use it (but I'd be willing to be shown how and learn).

@Mallard4468 posted:

Haven't run mine in awhile, but...

The engine is a bit light and underpowered for the train, so it can struggle, especially in curves.  It needs at least O72 curves.  As I recall, it needs to be running fairly fast for the whistle to kick in, and using it can slow the engine down.

Assuming that there's no binding in the mechanism and the engine and cars are properly lubed, that's just the nature of the beast.

I bought some oil and lube, since the set needs some, but yeah, I do have O-72s and still nothing with the KW and the whistle. I'm starting to think the transformer might not be as good as I was lead to think, but, again, I could be wrong (and this is my gut talking). We'll see how things pan out once I crimp the new wire and .110's I got to a FasTrack section and see.

@ThatGuy posted:

That’s what Lionel recommends for Fast Track. I use 16 or 14 gauge wire and make my own connection wires. It really is just to light for what it is supposed to do.

They recommend what for FasTrack? 18 gauge wiring? I ordered red and black 14 Gauge wires off of Amazon, so it'll definitely be two separate wires now instead of one that splits.

@ThatGuy posted:

That’s what Lionel recommends for Fast Track. I use 16 or 14 gauge wire and make my own connection wires. It really is just to light for what it is supposed to do.

@Big Steve posted:

They recommend what for FasTrack? 18 gauge wiring? I ordered red and black 14 Gauge wires off of Amazon, so it'll definitely be two separate wires now instead of one that splits.

Recommend? No.

Provide?  Yes, the standard connection wire for FasTrack is 20 or 22 gauge, and is meant for use only with a starter set, provided with 40-80 watts power supplies / transformers.

@ADCX Rob posted:

Recommend? No.

Provide?  Yes, the standard connection wire for FasTrack is 20 or 22 gauge, and is meant for use only with a starter set, provided with 40-80 watts power supplies / transformers.

I guess what confuses me then is, why is there so much juice at the beginning when I run the whole set, but then it slows down altogether, and then, after I unplug and re-plug back in the KW, almost nothing? You just hear the engine giving its all? I understand it's the power distribution to the track, but still, to the uninitiated like myself, it would make sense for it to be consistent.

And on the same note, why is it that the engine and tender can chug along just fine on their own (but still no whistle, assuming the whistle issue lies with the KW and not the tender)? I guess the FasTrack gauge wiring is just fine for them two, but when you add in the other cars which have lights, it gets too much to handle (probably just answered my own question there)?

@ADCX Rob posted:

Recommend? No.

Provide?  Yes, the standard connection wire for FasTrack is 20 or 22 gauge, and is meant for use only with a starter set, provided with 40-80 watts power supplies / transformers.

That is the wire Lionel only sells for there FastTrack so it is an implied recommendation.

I get the wiring and the connectors to make a 14 gauge replacement hopefully all by tomorrow; I'll report back with my results. If it doesn't work, it's looking like it's the transformer.

So all the little pieces and parts finally came to make the 14 gauge wiring replacement, and... bust. Still the same issue. However, this time, the train ran a bit longer than before, but still, when the whistle was actuated on the KW, the whole thing just slowed down to a stop, and then it gave it its all to get back to some speed before teetering out.

I found a guy in my area who services Lionel's, and he's going to look at both the train and the KW next week. He thinks it's the transformer giving me the issue, so we'll see. That's what my gut is telling me too at this point.

So sorry that you're having trouble Steve.  I'm not convinced that your transformer is the culprit.  I think part of the problem is the joints between your various individual sections of FastTrack.  Make sure the track is connected snugly, and use two or three pairs of feeders wired in parallel.   Doing this should make for more reliable operation.  If you have an opportunity to run your train on traditional tubular metal track, that would be a good way to test my theory that it's  your track.  The metal track might not look very realistic, but it's quieter running, and in my experience a better conductor of electricity.

The motor in your Hiawatha is a traditional design that benefits from regular maintenance.  This includes lubrication and also a scrupulous cleaning of the commutator, brushes, and brush wells.  Erratic operation, excess power draw, and slowing down during or after use can be the sign of a dirty commutator, worn brushes, or weak brush springs.  The brushes and brush springs can be replaced.

Part of this hobby is working on your trains and you'll eventually learn the basics.  There are some newer trains that are more "maintenance-free" but I personally find them less rewarding.  Good luck, let us know what you find out.

So, update time:

I went to go get my Hiawatha serviced at a train repairman, and he was very nice. He oiled up everything, including the whistle in the tender (which was very dry but I heard it working when he tested it), and the train ran fast on his layout. Cleaned the wheels and such too. He looked at the KW, said it was in working order. However, he didn't open it up. He just plugged in your typical voltmeter and saw the amps were good to go.

Well, when I got home ran the train, the speeds were there. Clearly, it needed oiled up. The 14 gauge wiring is doing its thing with the power. But there is still flickering with the middle passenger car and vestibule, so I feel the track might need cleaned, as everything else on the train itself was cleaned. Unless someone else thinks elsewise?

However, when I try to hit the whistle function on the KW, the whole train literally stops in its tracks until I pull back on the lever, and then it goes back to normal. So, I think something is going on inside of it that he'll need to look at.

Thoughts?

#16 wire should carry the current and a short length as shown should have no voltage drop issues causing such a dramatic drop in speed.  When the train is running slow at a high track volt setting,  what is your voltage at the track vs the A/U terminals?  Look for issues there including the connection of those small spade connectors under the track section receiving power.

@CALNNC posted:

When the train is running slow at a high track volt setting,  what is your voltage at the track vs the A/U terminals?

That I don't know, however when he tested the KW, it got good readings, well within the acceptable range. However, the train wasn't be ran at the time, it was just the KW that was being checked by itself. Is it possible that, even though we got good readings without the train being ran, it could be a horse of a different color when we're actually running the train itself?

Still sounds like track connections to me.  The Hiawatha does need a lot of power when the whistle is being blown; I don't know what the maximum voltage output is for a KW - it might not be enough.  Try a different engine (another postwar or MPC with whistle if possible) and see if the same behavior occurs.  Try a different transformer and see if the engine behaves the same.

At first, it was going fine for the most part (the speed really wasn't all there, even when cranked to 20v), but then it gradually started to run slower, and slower, till eventually it might as well had stopped.

To me, this is tell-tale. Lionel Reading T-1s and NYC Mohawks from this era also exhibit this symptom. I suspect your problem is the bearings on the motor shaft are quite dry. 37+ years of just sitting there will dry the grease out leaving it hard as a rock and no lubrication.

You need to pull the motor, pull out the armature, pull the bearings (there are 2 sets IIRCC) clean all the old grease out, repack them, and reassemble the whole thing. It's quite a bit of work, especially if you have not done it before. For grease, I prefer Red-n-Tacky, available at automotive stores. One tube will last forever.

Also,  the tender has the old style tinplate wheel sets. Both the axle and the wheels turn. So you need to lubricate both sides of the wheels and where the axle goes into the truck.

Chris

LVHR

Chris, it sounds like someone at a local train store took care of the lubrication issue.  The Hiawatha uses a very different motor from the T-1s and Mohawk made a year or two later.  The Hiawatha's motor is more like prewar Tinplate, with parallel side plates, a "pancake" armature, and spur gears.  It's a primitive design and it might not be a great runner, but I disagree that there is a problem with the bearings on the motor shaft.  The bearings are accessible without removing the armature.  Steve could search the Forum for known issues, but I suspect most Hiawathas were bought by collectors and displayed without much run time.

Big Steve, Lionel's traditional whistles can be finicky.  The Ott Machine Services sound controller (which is no longer made), and MTH's Z-4000 seem to do a better job of blowing most whistles without having the train stall, speed up, or slow down.

I realize what I'm about to say is blasphemy to some of you.  But if you want absolutely reliable operation, I would take the darn whistle out of the tender, mount it under the platform or hide it inside a building somewhere near a road crossing, and trigger it directly with a momentary push-button on its own circuit.  By doing this the loco won't slow down or fly off the rails, AND it's no longer pulling the dead-weight in the tender!

@Ted S posted:

I realize what I'm about to say is blasphemy to some of you.  But if you want absolutely reliable operation, I would take the darn whistle out of the tender, mount it under the platform or hide it inside a building somewhere near a road crossing, and trigger it directly with a momentary push-button on its own circuit.  By doing this the loco won't slow down or fly off the rails, AND it's no longer pulling the dead-weight in the tender!

Instead of all that, Gunrunnerjohn posted this over 20 years ago:  https://www.modeltrainforum.co...17116750&slide=0

Read the replies and his answers and comments to understand how the thing works.

"Instead of all that?"  GRJ is a brilliant engineer.  If you have the skills to build his circuit, and assuming that it will fit in the Hiawatha tender, go for it!  However... we still don't know whether Steve's KW is generating the correct DC offset to trigger the whistle without causing the train to slow down or speed up.  And even with a perfect controller and reliable decoding circuit in the tender, you still have a heavy whistle mechanism and pickup roller(s) on the tender adding drag to the train being pulled.

By comparison, my radical "solution" requires only a screwdriver, wire cutters, and a soldering iron (to bypass the relay once you've removed the whistle from the tender.)  It would also allow an operator to sound the whistle any time, with any loco.  If your layout isn't very large you don't give up much realism having the whistle on the layout instead of in the moving train.  My own experience with Lionel's AC-motored whistles isn't encouraging; perhaps yours is better.

@Ted S posted:

Chris, it sounds like someone at a local train store took care of the lubrication issue.  The Hiawatha uses a very different motor from the T-1s and Mohawk made a year or two later.  The Hiawatha's motor is more like prewar Tinplate, with parallel side plates, a "pancake" armature, and spur gears.  It's a primitive design and it might not be a great runner, but I disagree that there is a problem with the bearings on the motor shaft.  The bearings are accessible without removing the armature.  Steve could search the Forum for known issues, but I suspect most Hiawathas were bought by collectors and displayed without much run time.

Big Steve, Lionel's traditional whistles can be finicky.  The Ott Machine Services sound controller (which is no longer made), and MTH's Z-4000 seem to do a better job of blowing most whistles without having the train stall, speed up, or slow down.

I realize what I'm about to say is blasphemy to some of you.  But if you want absolutely reliable operation, I would take the darn whistle out of the tender, mount it under the platform or hide it inside a building somewhere near a road crossing, and trigger it directly with a momentary push-button on its own circuit.  By doing this the loco won't slow down or fly off the rails, AND it's no longer pulling the dead-weight in the tender!

Thanks for the info.  I was pretty sure that the motor is not the same as the T1 or Mohawk, but you explained it far better than I could. 

Re the blasphemy, I wouldn't worry about it.  These sets have little collector value - they routinely sell NIB for $300-400, which is less than half of what they sold for 35 years ago, and that's before adjusting for inflation.  Another option would be to replace the old whistle with an electronic version - lighter and more reliable.

@CALNNC posted:

Instead of all that, Gunrunnerjohn posted this over 20 years ago:  https://www.modeltrainforum.co...17116750&slide=0

Read the replies and his answers and comments to understand how the thing works.

That thread is an obscure find - good research on your part.  Unfortunately, I'm not an electronics expert so I had trouble following all of the back and forth in the comments.  Because of the comments, I'm not entirely sure that the circuit works as diagrammed.  But I did get a chuckle from someone not understanding GRJ's use of the word "unobtainium".

So, I just got off the phone with the repairman who took a look at my set, and he told me that I should just up and purchase a 5906 to run and separately blow my whistle. We suspect (but did not crack open to verify) that the KW's rectifier disk is shot, so this is a good Plan B, and a better solution, since it's a more modern part to use.

I'll be looking into purchasing one, probably sometime soon here in the near future. I already put the track away until Christmas time, upon which I'll re-oil it, and see if the 5906 works. Just a quick question about how to wire it - I would assume the red wiring goes into either the A or B part on the KW, and the black wire goes into the FasTrack itself?

Steve,

Here's the wiring diagram for the 5906 RailSounds activation button. Pretty straightforward, and these buttons are quite reliable.

These old fashioned air whistles seem to respond better to the bell activation than the whistle, even though they'll blow regardless of which button you press. I have a Lionel Classics Blue Comet with roughly the same features as the Hiawatha, so I'm speaking from some experience.