Ives 3255 question...

It could be real, it might not be.....hard to say without pictures.

If you have some pics, email them to me and I'll look at them and give you my opinion if you like.  You may have to look at other clues besides paint to determine the history of the piece.

I've never seen one as you describe, however there are some locomotives out there that are painted over another color.

I would think if it were original, then it would have a steal frame with either iron or diecast pilots.

If the black paint is in decent shape then I would speculate it is restored or otherwise "done-up"

Anything I've ever seen that was originally over-painted, has severe to moderate flaking of the 2nd top coat, showing much of the original color underneath.

Simply put, I does not hold up very well over time.

I did have an O gauge observation car that was 1930 gloss black over orange.

Ives1122, thank you, I realise there isn't going to be a definitive answer porobably, I was just wondering how plausible it was, I don't have enough knowledge to know whether this combination isn't even possible.  Here's the link, the black overpaint is a bit beat up...  I am a bit intrigued with it.

Hojack,

to me the paint on the shell looks original and correct for a 1929-30 loco thats been overpainted.  The slot in the cab "hood" also looks original and correct for Ives of this period......thus dating the shell alone to 29-30.  Plates and railings also appear correct.

The headlights should be smooth bare (non-engraved or etched) brass and look like they've been messed with in the past and are possibly newer repro parts.  That being said, Ives did have nickel headlights for the std. gauge 3245 available in their parts bin around that time.  They just don't look right to me in the pics to be original to the loco.

Iron frame and motor are much earlier than the shell.  Also one coupler appears to be a newer repro part.....or just excessively cleaned.

Maybe Ives put this frame/motor with this shell, maybe not.

My personal opinion as of right now (pending further observations) is no, and that someone switched it in the past.

The later motors are notoriously more troublesome to make them run well due to a revision in brush holder design.  Also the late steel frames often have broken diecast pilots.

Swapping frames/motors would be a quick fix for the "operator type" who wanted to run the loco.

These are all just my opinions, whatever their worth...

Bid responsibly and accordingly.

Ives1122,

Thank you, that is really good information and opinion based on a much wider range of experience than my own, I appreciate you taking the tme.  It never would have occurred to me that it's a possibility someone may have swapped "backwards", back to an older frame and motor, for more reliable operation.  This is the kind of thing that, for me, makes this such a fun hobby, the permutations are endless.

I was curious about the slot in the hood for the manual reverse lever, I would have thought the "R" model would not have this, unless they were using up old parts.   If I understand you correctly, you are saying this could be authentic in this case.  The other 3255R I have does not have the top slot but I'm quite sure it is a later model, it has the stamped frame.

I understand the caveat that accompanies your comments, that it's very hard to say anything with certainty, and I accept that, it's more a question of probablities here.  To some extent one can always say, "anything's possible", but if it's such a stretch that it beggars belief, it becomes more prudent to say, "in this case, probably not,"  and that's the most reasonable position to take until proved otherwise.  It is interesting to see you saying that the black-over-orange factory repaint scenario of the shell is at least plausible given the evidence.

I'm going to keep an eye on this one for a little while, it certainly does have its own story to tell, whatever it may be!

Hojack,

No problem...glad to offer assistance.

What I meant was that the slot looks factory cut...not home made.

The slots started showing up in 1927ish, when the manual reverse units changed from the rotating drum type to the "Lionel-ish" style fiber discs.

Just because the slot is there doesn't mean it was born with manual reverse.  Ives is known for putting things together.

So it was probably always an "R" as the plates say.....but they only had a "Slotted shell" on hand.

You can look for wear around the slot caused by the reverse lever being thrown back and forth....if you don't find it, then it was most likely always an "R" locomotive with the electric reverser.

To me, from what I see in the photos, the shell paint looks original factory overpainted.

One secret is that most people who restore, strip the original paint off....secondly, most people do not go through the trouble of painting the window trim back on.....and certainly not in the correct color.

So someone sloppy enough to restore the loco without stripping the original orange off, would probably not make the windows so "perfect"....thus leading me to believe Ives did it.

  I agree with everything Eric said. Its a neat piece and will probably sell cheap. The headlights to me look like Lionel repros. 

  As he said IVES mixed and matched items all the time. They also compulsively overpainted things to fit the day's needs. I just finished cleaning a 3241R that is red over orange!!! 

  Good luck and enjoy the little mongrel if you win it!!!

Thanks to both of you.   I appreciate the more knowledgeable members of the forum sharing their expertise.  I did end up with it (I think it's just been named "Lil' Mongrel"), I'll be able to look at it closer when it arrives.

I've just finished repainting a trashed Lionel 318 that was almost unsalvageable - bent frame, broken shell, rust, the works.... but that aside, just the process of removing all the trim and re-installing it after painting, makes me wonder why Ives bothered with these factory repaints, it is ridiculously labor intensive!

You're Welcome.  Glad you got the loco.  Should be fun to study.

The thing is that Ives is not nearly as labor intensive to strip trim from.

We're talking 2 headlights, 4 brass plates, and 4 railings with cotter pins on the shell.

Lionel's "Plates" are one giant piece that has all the plates and is "tabbed/slotted" into the loco sides.  Much more fragile as well... the tabs break off and you're screwed....

Ives you just get another plate or cotter pin.

Personal speculation is also that the trim was never on the locomotive to begin with.....it was just a painted shell, sitting on a rack or shelf somewhere until they needed it to build a train set.  Then it got repainted and assembled into a locomotive.

I don't believe that Ives would've built the loco completely without having a specific use for it.

One of the things I learned while researching the 3255 and 3257 (which are cousins), was that trim on the shells didn't seem to match motor/frame details or colors per say.

So a grey loco from 26/27 shows up with 1928-29 headlights and trim?

Probably because it didn't have trim in 1926-27, but it did have paint....to protect the bare metal......then sat on a shelf until it was needed.

Many of their "sets" in 29 and 30 contain leftover pieces from previous years that they overpainted.....so I believe it was more a "grab and go" use what we got type of situation.

If they had paint in stock, but not enough parts to build an entirely new car, it makes more business sense to grab the old orange one from last year and re-spray it.

While studying the trains is a big enjoyment to me, I still find it slightly comical that we (physically grown adults) sit around and discuss things like this.....heck there's a huge meet that occupies several buildings of an entire fairground twice a year just for such purpose......  If any one of the factory workers could see us now, he/she'd be laughing their rear end off.

It was a toy factory....for kids toys. 

"We need black locos this year....apparently "they" changed the color in the catalog again!....well the tooling is not up for the 3255 yet.......arn't their some of last years orange ones in the back.....start painting...."