Ives couplers

Aren't these known as the snake pull couplers?

here is the coupling to a #53 boxcar...

seems to ride ok, but sits a little high and a good jolt might throw it out of the slot.
...but at least it works.

cheers...gary

I've seen them called combination couplers, I'd guess because they can be used with a similar one, or as you did with the tab.  I've done that also, and haven't experienced any uncouplings.

overlandflyer posted:

do the Ives collectors have a name for this type coupler? ...

 

This is what Ives called their "automatic coupler", introduced in 1912.  After that date, only the lower priced trains, like the 50 series freight cars, kept using the tab-and-slot coupler.

The Ives automatic coupler, in three different sizes, was used on Ives O Gauge, Gauge 1,  and Standard Gauge trains from 1912 to 1930.  They were attatched to the bottom of the car either with a twist tab, or riveted - using either a solid rivet, a split rivet, or a hollow eyelet.

In 1929, an automatic coupler was introduced that had a much longer shank; instead of being riveted to the bottom of the car, it extended all the way back to the front truck, and the same rivet that attached the truck to the bottom of the car also attached the coupler.  The result of this was to change the forces acting on the car in a train.  Each car was effectively connected to the next at the trucks; this resulted in much less inward roll on corners, and fewer derailments, especially on long trains.  

This longer-shank Ives automatic coupler was called the "Snake Track Pull" coupler.  Somehow it seems to have got started to call all Ives couplers "snake pull", but that's not correct: the snake reference is to the longer shank and the truck attachment point, and they only appeared at the end of Ives production in 1929-30.   All other (regular-length-shank) Ives couplers of this type are just called "Ives Automatic coupler".

david

overlandflyer posted:

  was that the purpose of the slot ala the Marx plastic fork coupler?

thanks for the info...gary

Gary, the real purpose of the slot is for the "upturned stub end" of the mating coupler to fit into, so that the couplers are horizontal when mated.  The "upturned stub end" of the coupler on the top slips under the little metal flap (sometimes, there is also a spring to hold the flap down - like Lionel latch couplers, the Ives Automatic coupler came in versions with and without the spring). 

The slot is not really designed as a "combination" coupler for tap couplers to fit into, buit it can work that way!

To folks brought up on lionel latch couplers, the Ives automatic coupler seems a bit of a mystery.  I'm the other way, I was brought up with my tiny fingers working Ives couplers at an early age, and to me they're the only ones that make sense!  More than any other prewar tinplate coupler, they really are (almost!) "automatic": if you line them up just right, you can back one car into another and have them couple, hands free! 

Uncoupling involves just reaching under the couplers and flipping the little piece that hangs down: this lifts the upper flap that holds the "upturned end" of the mating coupler, and the cars roll apart.

david

Thank you for explaining that David. I was wondering how it worked, and your description is crystal clear.

But if the slot wasn't meant to make them combination couplers, what is the purpose of it?

J White

David,

Thanks for the informative Ives coupler lesson. Ives would be lost on the forum without you. I would have to argue one point though, I don't believe your fingers were ever tiny!

ARNO

Hi Arno!     There a lot more senior and knowledgeable Ives experts on the forum, they must just be taking the evening off.  They'll be by in the morning to check my facts.

d

I like the Ives "automatic" coupler, think it is very easy to use plus have used the slot with a hook with no real problems.

David, thanks for the information and chronology.

i'm starting to agree with the other comments about the ruggedness of the connection to tab couplers.  the Ives tabs seem to be long enough to withstand normal use.  the downside of the T&S Ives couplers in use with a clockwork locomotive is that they have a very small amount of play when starting up unlike the sliding tab couplers Marx used and almost immediately have the full load to startup.  this is the "jolt" i was referring to.  i'm probably cheating a bit, but with some trains like this i occasionally give it a running start (i.e. push) rather than just flip the brake and watch the wheels spin.

the pictured tender is in fact the only example i have of an automatic coupler.
perhaps someone could post a picture of how two of these couple(?)

cheers...gary

Here you go.

overlandflyer posted:

the downside of the T&S Ives couplers in use with a clockwork locomotive is that they have a very small amount of play when starting up unlike the sliding tab couplers Marx used and almost immediately have the full load to startup.  this is the "jolt" i was referring to. 

I get what you're saying.  The tab and slot couplers are pretty rigid, since the slot isn't much thicker than the tab.  This is particularly true if the shank of the coupler is riveted to the car body.  The ones that have a twist tab at the end of the shank that goes into a slot in the floor of the car, they have more slide, fore-and-aft.

 The Ives automatic couplers have a lot of "coupler slack" in them, fore-and-aft.  If you use the prototypical method of backing up the train to push all the couplers together, you should then be able to start up and take up the slack one coupler at a time.

Thanks for the photos Steve, that's what we needed.

Here's the long-shank "snake track pull" coupler, fastened with the rivet at the center of the truck (late production only, 1929-30):

Dave is totally correct in his well written analysis with one exception. The snake pull came out in 1928. 

   IVES did intend the slot in the auto coupler to accept the older tab and slot unit. They were very attentive to customers who already owned older equipment, and went above and beyond to make sure the new purchases could happily co-exist with the trains already owned. When electric track was introduced in 1910, there was even a kit containing insulated center rails so customers could retrofit their old track! 

The Nighthawk posted:

   IVES did intend the slot in the auto coupler to accept the older tab and slot unit. 

Thanks Dave, I stand corrected.  It doesn't line up the way I thought it did anyway!  Always good to learn something new about something familiar.

1928 was the year for a lot at Ives.  Greenberg says 29, but we keep learning more about that sad period.

"...They were very attentive to customers who already owned older equipment, and went above and beyond to make sure the new purchases could happily co-exist with the trains already owned. ..."     except when they dumped all their Gauge 1 customers overnight and went to wide gauge.  How very 21st century of them... that wasn't backward compatible at all!

d

I had forgotten this short video I made a while back when this subject came up.

Steve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy_jel2fJGg