K Line 21 inch passenger car thoughts...awesome cars BUT...

Thanks for the warning John. Fortunately, I don't think I have any of those offending conditions on my layout. I haven't taken my passenger cars out of their boxes, but I have been using Lionel's 89' auto racks for clearance testing. The only curves on grades are the two helixes, but their diameters far exceed the 072 you say is the lower limit.

My only problem areas, that I have discovered to date, are a couple curves on the upper deck where the 4" track centers don't allow the longest cars to safely pass on the curve at the same time. Slight sideswipe issue. Cars up to 70' are OK to pass. A train with long cars can pass a train with normal length cars no problem. It is not worth a track re-work, operators will just have to be cognizant of the limitation, and trains with long cars will have to take turns on those curves. It shouldn't come into play very often.

Good info, John. I think many forget about how big these cars & the new Lionel 21" cars ACTUALLY are! They eat up a lot of real estate quickly!

Even on O-140 the 21" cars overhang more than I like. But, small price to pay for such nice models. 

Elliott:  I'm lucky because I don't have a sideswipe issue anywhere, but there are more places than I can tell you where you couldn't get a dime width between those 21" cars and a crossing signal, building, tunnel portal or other!  Fortunately, I just had to slightly move a snow-shed, remove several trees and actually use a hammer to tap in some "earth" near my curved wooden trestle!  They would have used dynamite in real life.  Maybe I should have used a firecracker?

Firecracker. I don't have any scenery yet, so that's not a problem. There is one signal bridge that I'll have to check. It's going into a curve, and it could be tight.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Firecracker. I don't have any scenery yet, so that's not a problem. There is one signal bridge that I'll have to check. It's going into a curve, and it could be tight.

Would like to see a video of them traveling your layout.

I do need a new video. I would have to unpack my Milwaukee cars, and bust out 261 to go with them. I've been reluctant to do that with all the construction, but the big stuff is winding down, so I suppose I could. It's actually a good idea.

I'm sure I'll get blasted but I have a tough time understanding the desire to run cars of this length.

Meaning that we probably don't build a full size model of a steel mill on our layouts. Instead we created a compressed or truncated version that captures the flavor and operation in a much smaller space. 

The same should apply for rolling stock. If it's so long that it dwarfs all but the largest warehouse-sized layouts then it probably isn't a great choice despite being an accurate scale length.

Also, in real-world settings, we're usually seeing the prototype up close and at extreme angles that really hides the actual length of these cars anyway.

Graz, you are right if that looks good to you.

If you have all scale sized equipment and you want it to look correct, then you would want scale length cars.

If your layout is compressed, then shorter cars would look and run better.

graz posted:

I'm sure I'll get blasted but I have a tough time understanding the desire to run cars of this length.

Meaning that we probably don't build a full size model of a steel mill on our layouts. Instead we created a compressed or truncated version that captures the flavor and operation in a much smaller space. 

The same should apply for rolling stock. If it's so long that it dwarfs all but the largest warehouse-sized layouts then it probably isn't a great choice despite being an accurate scale length.

Also, in real-world settings, we're usually seeing the prototype up close and at extreme angles that really hides the actual length of these cars anyway.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly man!  I really do.  But, since my first days on this Forum as I read about the K Line cars as being the best of the best I just couldn't resist.  Honestly, if I was advising people, and I have, I always suggest/recommend that you use engines and other rolling stock that in length is complimentary to your curvature.

My scale cars look great in about 70% of my space.  I should have planned for them at the start.  I messed that up.  BUT at least, I'm NOT going to schnabel (spelled wrong)(26 inch long car) no matter what!  God I hope that those aren't famous last words. 

Actually these cars are easier to run than the Atlas CZ passenger cars... I have 0100 on my layout and still have problems with these. Atlas CZ cars and 072 radii just don't mix.

In most cases I personally can't bear to see a model train that is not proportionate to the scale of the real train it represents and the track it is running on.  Just my opinion of course.  When a car at 1/4" to the foot is 21" long, then I'll accept nothing less.  The site of a 12 car or longer train of scale cars is just so much fun to watch looping around a layout.

On the other hand I enjoy tinplate more and more and relative scale isn't as much of an issue for me there.

I run scale length passenger cars from K-Line, Weaver and 3rd Rail.  My minimum radius is O-72.  It is necessary to plan for the clearances for both scenery and sideswipes when running scale equipment.  One of the attractions of 3-rail is that most scale length engines and equipment can get around an O-72 curve including Big Boy engines.  

The minimum curve for 2-rail O to run mainline scale equipment is about O-120 and larger.  Very few of us have room for 60 inch radius curves (10 foot diameter).  I would most likely be running 2-rail O if I had this kind of space.

People planning layouts should always use as large a curve as possible for their space.  All equipment looks and operates better on larger curves.

NH Joe

Hi John, I had a problem that was similar to yours' though with different cars. I found that super elevating the curve track helped.

Make the outside rail slightly higher then the inside one. If you place a torpedo level across the track the outside rail should be high enough to off set the bubble to it's outside center mark.

In other words just shim the outside rail about a coffee stirrer stick, or two  thickness on the outer turn. Make sure you climb in and out of the elevation smoothly.

This goes a long way to balance your trucks through a turn.

I can't say if this will solve your problem or not with the K Line 21 inch cars, but it sure gives your train a cool tilt when traveling through the turn.

Have Fun!  

I picked up 6 Weaver 21" NH cars (black) that really look nice.  I did have to cut off the in-coupler button, and flex tie the couplers closed, but now my F7 ABA NH consists looks nice going up the ramp to the main level from the storage track under the main level on an O72 and 80 inch curve with 9 inches of elevation. It definitely highlighted track issues that needed to be resolved.

Oh yea John, you never mentioned what percent grade you are running through. I have five percent grades and that creates all kinds of issues with trains that work just fine through a level turn.

Your grade should not be more then two percent and the approach must be smooth with no sharp inflections in the track.

Sometimes a curve / grade combo might work OK for a three car train but the lead car of a six car train could suffer lift problems.

John C. posted:

 

My scale cars look great in about 70% of my space.  I should have planned for them at the start.  I messed that up.  BUT at least, I'm NOT going to schnabel (spelled wrong)(26 inch long car) no matter what!  God I hope that those aren't famous last words. 

Actually you did spell it right

At leas as far as the MTH Schnabel cars go, because the car sits on two sets of span bolsters, you only have to account for the central rigid body of these cars, which is a good 8" or more shorter than the overall length. The rest of the length has no significant overhang because it consists of narrow frames between closely-spaced trucks.

My (delayed) plans to build a Westinghouse 801...

are assisted by the fact I plan to run it empty as pictured. Even though it's about four feet long, the longest rigid portion of the body probably (I don't have my drawings handy) overhangs less than a 21" passenger car (certainly less than my DDA40X's), and the rest of the length, like the MTH cars is narrow and/or short bodies on closely-spaced trucks and simply makes like a centipede through the curve.

---PCJ

Well I bought a 5 car set of Weaver Gold Edition Great Northern dark green Empire Builder 21" aluminum cars.  They are too long for me to run.  Now that was my fault.  I didn't think to ask how long they are, so I will not blame the seller.  I take full responsibility.  That said, I will probably sell them to someone with a big layout, if I can find a buyer.  lol  

I impressed myself with the correct spelling!  It was one heck of a guess.  Don't tell anybody.  It will be our secret.

John C. posted:

I impressed myself with the correct spelling!  It was one heck of a guess.  Don't tell anybody.  It will be our secret.

lol

I have two MTH schnabel cars I run with no problem.  Also, the 21" K Line CZ cars have never given me any difficulty, my main line minimum radius is 72", mostly tubular track, some Gargraves and Atlas, including switches of all three type (have to run with what I have from past layouts).  I, too, have some super elevated track on several curves and this has helped a lot.  However, the super elevation was done to assist with some of the larger scale steam motive power I run.  I am just now beginning to lay extra ties (over 1000 to date) due to being certain all engines/rolling stock can perform without any problems after several months of testing.  Also, as I lay in the extra ties (3R Plastics) and get ready for ballasting, I am soldering every middle rail connection, and a lot of the outside rails, also.  Even with some 3% max grades, and 072 curves on elevations, to date the testing of mainlines is passing inspection.  With a long way to go until completion, here is hope the Winter period allows me opportunity to do more on the layout and testing of the Gargraves track placement in the engine service/passenger yard areas. 

J Daddy posted:

Actually these cars are easier to run than the Atlas CZ passenger cars... I have 0100 on my layout and still have problems with these. Atlas CZ cars and 072 radii just don't mix.

In a perfect world, we buy the cars before we build the layout.  In that way we can build to suit, never having to concern ourselves over manufacturers guesstimates.  I initially thought nothing would limit my choice of equipment with 072 minimums.

About 10 years ago I bought 2 K-Line 21" head end cars in the anticipation of the larger new layout.  It became obvious that even 300 feet of mainline could never make 10 or 12 car passenger trains appear to fit it's surroundings.  Still, they were invaluable when it came to laying track.  If a leveling or clearance issue went undetected, running a 21" car over the questionable area would point out the problem.

As the mainline came together, all doubts about "downsizing" vanished.  Imposing certain maximum limits....18" cars being one and 8 drivered steam locos ( lets me keep my LionMaster PRR T1 ).  I hook the 2 FOM 21" cars to the T1 or GG1 and add a business car in back for a crack mail/pay express.

Bruce

here's a couple 21" cars on a 6' radius curve ( Looks like I may have to move the lights?)

Looks great Joe.

Thank you Marty!

I only have a few. I'm not in your league. I just started dabbling in passenger cars too late. I figure I could run a modern mixed consist and it would look OK.

The K-line cars are very nice still. I need to unbox a couple of the MTH ones I have and see how they look together. I think they'll be fine as they look close to the older real ones that they are models of.

Great thread and posts.  I really like the 21 inch cars. Beautiful. I have a fair sized layout but only a couple of long stretches that would accommodate a 6 or 8 car train. Long ago I decided to settle on 18 in. kline heavy weight passenger cars that I think are close to 72 ft. cars and mail trains. They don't look terrible on my o72 track.  Hope to see videos of the 21 inches in action.

Very neat piers Joe. Your train looks like a monorail.

21" cars well I said the same things when the scale GG1s appeared. What was wrong with the tiny GG1s. However, once I ran a scale one, I could never go back.

Now I have several scale GG1s and two more coming next week! Size IS relative.

Great looking job there Joe, I like the elevated track system!

ok, ready for this?

I made my bench work for G scale trains. I moved the O scale there. So when I wanted to install my highline ,I put it on top of the old tunnels for the G.

That makes it a few inches higher than it should have been.

I'm getting old.