K Line powered ALCO trucks

This?

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...46-be42-1dd7b82adbe3

Looks like it...I'll have to check it out though.  Does anyone know if the K-Line version used a DC motor like what is pictured here?

I bought many S-2 K-line switchers when K-line was going out of business. Most went for around $35 at the time. I use them for my little electric short line. Only one of my three small electrics can run on the line at a time so there is no electronics much. I just run these conventional from the overhead live wire. Don

Ahitpy it's definitely a DC motor.  What do you need this for?  Are you looking for the more premium vertical motored application, or the small motor transversely mounted in the truck, which was more common in starter-set type locos?

SPSF that's a Lionel part.  Part number 8803 is a dead giveaway.  The wheelbase was longer and a different gear ratio, so it's definitely not a one-for-one replacement for anything K-Line produced.

One more angle... RMT brought back some of the K-Line designs including the little Alco switcher, which they called a "Bang."  By most accounts the RMT models ran much better, slower and tamer.  So either the motors or the gears were different, or both.  I'm not sure if RMT is still in business, but I would try to score two of those trucks.  Or just cannibalize a used Bang, if you can get one at a good price.  Welcome to model train repair in the 21st Century!  

Luckily, I ordered a pair from Brasseur a few months ago.  I used these to add power to a few of my K-Line ALCO FA AA sets. I also got the wire tethers from them as well. I've got them all done now.  Just wanted to know if these were still available.  They are pretty hardy units.

@Ahitpy, I realize from your last post here, you have your project finished. But just for your consideration....

Though you wouldn't know it from just looking at the photo, this project here was far more complicated than I imagined. Aside from the color being slightly off (the liability of using spray paint and going by the cap for color), or from breaking the front pilot during the repainting.

At one time years ago, I was on a friendly basis with a repair tech who had worked in the Lionel service department. I had his direct line and could call right to his desk, but I was well aware not to abuse the situation. Anyways, at one time I asked him how much weight I could add to a Lionel Industrial Switcher? He told me it was the same type motor used in the die-cast starter set steam engines, so the weight of that shell would be a good guideline.

Lionel also recommends a 10-car train length limit with the 4-4-2 steam engine, for longevity of the motor. The engine will easily pull more than 10 cars, but most likely you'll be shortening the life of the motor and possibly the smoke unit too.

K-Line and Lionel use slightly different parts and components. The DC can motors in their respective Alcos look identical, but the number of teeth on the motor gear is different. The mounting pin (that goes into the engine frame with the "C" clip on it) are also in different locations.

But back to this photo. Aside from being a repaint, this engine also has a modified Lionel MPC dummy Alco truck on the front with no roller pickups. I've realized the same thing you have: That eventually parts will start being more difficult to find for K-Line products. Since my current layout is the smallest I have ever had, I limit myself to a train length of 10 cars (depending on the size/length of the train cars). So I've been converting some of my dual motored locos to single motored units, putting aside the removed motor truck for a future replacement part.

I had to do quite of bit of modification to that MPC truck to make it fit properly. I added some weight to the engine over the rear motor truck. And even though the Lionel truck has a sheet metal inner frame, I still added a wire for ground power to go to the other truck. This engine is set up for DC operation, so I figured the extra ground wire for the front truck would help prevent stalling. And stalling has NOT been a issue at all with this engine, save for a rare time I am running the loco exception slow over one particular turn out that is located on a curve.

I haven't experimented with it yet, but I suppose it might be possible (??) to put the K-Line Alco truck side assembly on a Lionel motor Alco motor frame. I have replaced K-Line plastic couplers with Lionel versions, but not without getting out the Dremel and making some modifications to them.

Anyways, just food for thought. The issue of parts availability is much more problematic on high end models that have such small original production runs, but with so many train companies no longer in business, it will eventually become an issue for more people. The lower end starter set kinds of products do have one advantage and that is that they were made in large quantities, so there's always the more realistic possibility of buying a second unit to cob for parts.

@scale rail posted:

I bought many S-2 K-line switchers when K-line was going out of business. Most went for around $35 at the time. I use them for my little electric short line. Only one of my three small electrics can run on the line at a time so there is no electronics much. I just run these conventional from the overhead live wire. Don

Don I always wanted to make a boxcab out of an S-2.  I planned on using a Lionel security car shell for the body.  As I pulled together all the pieces I realized the body was too short and too narrow.  I planned on using HO or N gauge stairs from Evergreen. I believe, to make louvers to extend the length and bend some sheet styrene to fill in the gap in the roof but the work to widen the body to extend to the edges of the frame appeared to be very daunting. the project never got off the ground and the S-2 got a re-paint into USAF dress with some detail add-ons.  Still think about giving it a try one day.

@brianel_k-lineguy; I appreciate the information, this is important.  I looked at some of the RMT engines to see if the powered truck assemblies were similar, and of course they aren't.  With the Lionel gearing being different a replacement would require both motors in a unit to be replaced in order to harmonize the tractive effort.  Otherwise, the likelihood of binding will occur. I believe this issue requires more research to find out where the original motors and gearing came from.  Perhaps armed with that information, an opportunity buy may be in order or an opportunity for a parts house.  In the mean time, it looks like the alternative is to have a spare junked K-Line ALCO on hand.  We knew this day was coming...and now it's here.

Ahitpy, I may have the intact remains of a K line set of trucks (can motors on them) from a MP 15 project. Would that be of interest to you?

I will look through the bins should you like.

My email is in the OGR directory.

@brianel_k-lineguy; Please take a look at part # K2200-15 at Brasseur's K-Line parts listing.  The description reads: "Can Motor with Pinion Gear Mounting Screws and Wires For All Locos with Horizontal Motor In Truck".  That description sounds like the right motor.  Here's the picture. 

@Leroof, I appreciate the offer but will hold off for the meantime.

Ahitpy, that's the right motor. K-Line used this same motor for the MP-15 also in the Alco FA, S-2 and the RDC Budd Car.

I forget now, but at one time I knew the numbers. But as I mentioned above, the similar motor used by Lionel has something... like maybe 12 gear teeth while the K-Line has 11. Whatever the exact numbers were, it was off by one gear tooth.

I have two sets of complete gears for that truck mounted motor from both Lionel and K-Line. There's a project I've meant to get to for years, but I've always wondered if you could use the Lionel motor in a K-Line truck by replacing some of the gears. This would be provided that the gears on the wheel with gear teeth have the same count of teeth. Then maybe it might work.

While I'm on this topic, part of the binding you refer to can also be caused by motors being different RPM's. Also, it can just be inherent with the manufacturing of these motors. I had one K-Line S-2 where you could visually see that the motors were running at different speeds. I swapped out that motor truck with another one from a Alco FA that was doing the same thing, so that the two motor trucks on one single engine were running more in sync with each other.

Now for the growling noise these engines typically make on tight 027 curves: K-Line placed their traction tires all over the place over the years. Sometimes they were both on each side the same wheel axle. Usually they were on opposite sides, but with one traction tire on one wheel on an axle and the other one on the opposite side wheel on the other axle. I usually remove a couple traction tires from my K-Line locos and this helps reduce the growling noise while not significantly affecting traction. Lionel puts their traction tires on both wheels but on the same side of the locomotive truck, which I personally think is a better set up.

One last observation: I don't think RMT had any alterations made to the motor truck assembly. Actually some of those parts are still stamped "K-Line" on them. There are two obvious differences to the RMT motor truck assembly on their Bang and Buddy diesels. One is the shape of the pick up roller which is different from the K-Line version. And the other is the coupler assembly, which I believe is from Williams by Bachmann. WBB uses the same sort of coupler assembly.

I actually prefer the former K-Line plastic couplers as they move much more freely, The springs on the RMT couplers are very stiff, so I've had trouble with a first car derailing on tight 027 curves, unless that first car behind the engine is a heavier weight one with die cast trucks. This issue with the RMT locos can be remedied over time by pushing the coupler over to one side until it "locks" in place. It doesn't really lock but it WILL stay put. Then after a few days, push the coupler over to the other side. This of course, is when you are not running the engine and have it off the track. Gradually this operation will help break in the spring that it in the coupler assembly.

The biggest change to the RMT motor truck is the different voltage spec motor. This is aside from the visual changes, the better paint/decoration and the die cast couplers. The RMT Bang and Buddy run much better when using a typical postwar type transformer that starts with a minimal 6 volts to the track. They do not do the jack-rabbit take off's that the K-Line engines did using the same transformers.

And I know it's the motor because I stripped down one RMT S-4, removing the circuit board so that it would run only on DC. And it ran the same way: It needs more voltage from the transformer to get going. So the difference was not changes to the circuit board. As an added note also, I tried running on of the RMT diesels with just one single motor truck with a K-Line dummy truck... it didn't run well at all. These really need the dual motor trucks. But maybe if I had added more weight to it, which I don't think I did.

RMT did a good job on the S-4 and the RDC cars. Their slower running capacity I think helps attribute to their current "rarity" on the used market. You just don't see them for sale like you once did. And when you do see one for sale, current selling prices paid are usually double of what they were only 4 or 5 years ago.