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Jim Waterman posted:

Just checking here - the K4 parts are now scattered in Altoona, the B&M 3713 in Steamtown, correct?

Correct.

Sure hope there aren't K4 parts in two shops any more.

They are not.

What do the Altoona guys say about the potential for the K4 to ever run again?

That depends on who you talk to and what week you talk to them.

Sad that the PRR saved one of the older worn out K4's (then let it sit on Horseshoe curve for 20 years before attempting to rebuild).

The PRR did NOT "attempt to rebuild" #1361!

Jim

 

Mike CT posted:

Steamtown, which is a museum, primary, has a lot of displays that explain the operation.  The K4 boiler and parts scattered everywhere only added to museum effect, IMO.   

That's interesting - thanks for the pics! Look at how the stays corrode away over time (skinny spots right above the 'crown sheet' sign)

 

 

Hot Water posted:
 
A few more questions about oil vs. coal, and suddenly a man asked, "What's the water for?"! I was stunned! One of the few times in my life I have speechless, and the other folks in the cab began to laugh, on top of that. As I tried to regain my composure, the guy got mad, said something unkind to the rest of the folks, and pushed his way out the exit side , and left.
 

This a problem that we as an industry are going to start facing more and more as the years go by.  We are preserving dinosaurs.  This technology is far removed from what people encounter in their daily life, and some really do have no clue as to how and why it works.  More and more, education is the biggest thing we are going to have to deal with in the future.

Kevin

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I have heard the PRR built or bought steamers that were planned to run 20 to 30 years, period, then scrapped.  Was that the plan when the K4s class was built?

Dominic,

I think if your research, you will find that 20-30 years was a typical operating life for a steam loco. The K4's were initially built in the mid teens (1914 was the first I believe). The PRR ran them into the late 1950's (about 1957 for the last ones that ran to Bay Head Junction, NJ, 'Down the Shore'.  Most of the last ones were the later ones that were built, so about 30 years.A 30 year life for a steam loco was typical for all railroads.

Another factor in life of a steam loco was technology - as larger and more powerful locos became available, the railroads would 'upgrade', getting more powerful and efficient power.  The T1 was supposed to be the successor to the K4, had more horsepower and potentially more tractive effort (the idea was one loco vs 2 K4's) but as we know, they had a rigid frame and did not run well in areas with tight curves, and also tended to be slippery as well, with one of the driver sets spinning wildly on startup. They did not last as long, most out of service in 10-15 years, being replaced by diesels.

And diesels have about the same economic life. Electrics tend to last longer (no prime mover to rebuild, and both diesels and electrics have electric motors, easily maintainable), GG1's lasted about 45 years.

Jim

Hot Water posted:

I disagree with that, as there are any number of "operating steam locomotives" around the world, yet the average person has no clue how they actually work. For example, during our display time in Owosso, MI at the big Train Festival event in 2009, we had the cab of 4449 open for public tours, while she was fired-up. We could fit 5 to 8 people in the cab at a time, and during one of the many question and answer periods, as different folks walked through the cab, I was explaining what the different valves & controls were, showed them the fire through the sanding peep hole, and how much fuel and water she typically used pulling a normal passenger train. One lady asked, "What is in that car right behind us?", and I explained how the tender is draw-bar connected to the engine, and how much fuel oil and water it holds when full, etc., etc., etc.. A few more questions about oil vs. coal, and suddenly a man asked, "What's the water for?"! I was stunned! One of the few times in my life I have speechless, and the other folks in the cab began to laugh, on top of that. As I tried to regain my composure, the guy got mad, said something unkind to the rest of the folks, and pushed his way out the exit side , and left. One younger women, with her two kids, said thanks, and offered "Don't worry, it takes all kinds!", as that group departed.

My point is, a fully dissambled steam locomotive, with the boiler off the frame, and all the internal components of both the boiler/firebox and engine running gear full exposed, is much more able to be a VERY informative teaching tool, especially for those who have really no clue. 

We've all had those questions. Our center-cab diesel and our 0-4-0T steam locomotives were sitting side-by-side once. With smoke and steam swirling around the steam engine, and the diesel grumbling away, a gentleman strode up and asked me, "Now, which one is the steam locomotive?"

Sure, I was shocked. But I also understood that this 30-something had never seen a steam locomotive in his life; maybe had never even seen a diesel.

Instead of laughing at him, I took the time to explain the differences to him. Instead of having someone leave angry, I enlightened him, and perhaps created a new fan. That's why an operational locomotive is more instructional: It invites questions, as opposed to a cold, dead boiler with the interior surfaces painted red, blue and white and a sign that says "crownsheet."

Sure, cut-away boilers have their place. But if I'm going to explain the history and operation of an injector, I sure as heck would want an operational one in front of me to show someone how it works. So they can see what it looks like to prime it; to hear it even. If I want to show how we check the water level, I want them to be able to see what the water looks like inside a water glass, or see what happens when I open the tri-cocks. Having a non--operational water glass with the interior of the lower half painted blue doesn't teach much.

If I want to teach someone about the pure power of steam, a cut-away boiler with the space above the crownsheet painted white isn't going to be nearly as instructive as opening the blowdown valve  on an operational  engine, feeling that explosive blast in your chest as the white plume jets out a hundred feet from the engine.

Your statement that "there are any number of "operating steam locomotives" around the world, yet the average person has no clue how they actually work" seems to suggest that you feel you could educate more people about steam if there were fewer operational engines; that they aren't very helpful. Perhaps it is the people operating these engines that need to think about how to teach better, and not suggest that dead, cold boilers are better teachers than operational engines with crews willing to share their knowledge, and not laugh people out of the cab.

smd4 posted:

Your statement that "there are any number of "operating steam locomotives" around the world, yet the average person has no clue how they actually work" seems to suggest that you feel you could educate more people about steam if there were fewer operational engines; that they aren't very helpful. Perhaps it is the people operating these engines that need to think about how to teach better, and not suggest that dead, cold boilers are better teachers than operational engines with crews willing to share their knowledge, and not laugh people out of the cab.

You might try re-reading what I posted, i.e. I did NOT say that I "laughed"! The other members of the public laughed at him, and he stormed out before I could offer an explanation.

You have you opinions, and I have mine, pertaining to trying to "educate the public".

Hot Water posted:
smd4 posted:

Your statement that "there are any number of "operating steam locomotives" around the world, yet the average person has no clue how they actually work" seems to suggest that you feel you could educate more people about steam if there were fewer operational engines; that they aren't very helpful. Perhaps it is the people operating these engines that need to think about how to teach better, and not suggest that dead, cold boilers are better teachers than operational engines with crews willing to share their knowledge, and not laugh people out of the cab.

You might try re-reading what I posted, i.e. I did NOT say that I "laughed"! The other members of the public laughed at him, and he stormed out before I could offer an explanation.

You have you opinions, and I have mine, pertaining to trying to "educate the public".

You might try re-reading what I posted, i.e. I did NOT say that you laughed.

Hot Water posted:
the odds of 1361 EVER leaving the Altoona Museum under her own power for excursions on Norfolk Southern, are VERY slim, if at all. 

I'd think the chances of her moving under her own power anywhere are very slim.

The saga of this locomotive from when she was pulled off that display track on Horseshoe Curve has been filled with drama and finger-pointing. For the RR preservation folks, some forums have banned the mention of this locomotive as a comical amount of bandwidth has been devoted to what happened to her once she went into the shop in the 80s.

If I recall correctly, she ran for about a year (if not less) before some bad things happened. I’ve heard all kinds of stuff but the most common thing I heard was there was a very bad mechanical issue with one of her main axles and they found firebox issues around the same time.

The annoying thing personally was I had planned to go see her in steam the next fall after that (planned before any issues had happened, of course) as I was still in art school (I graduated high school that summer) during the first year of restoration, but she was done before I could get up there. Like a good pal of mine always told me, “Ride them while you can, because you never know when they’ll drop the fires for good.”

Yeah, she ran for a little while, I think there was a bearing failure on a main axle, but as they fixed that, a series of things kept popping up, turns out, because she was a very early build K4, and very tired, that she was really not that great of a candidate for rebuild. The guys at Steamtown found that out in spades, and were fabricating major portions of the boiler as they found more and more sections beyond repair. As they replaced one portion, they would find more. Eventually, interest and funding ran out, and the pieces found their way back to Altoona.

K4 Number 3850, currently at the PA museum might have been a better choice.

We should keep up hope (and it's been a long time), that the PRR G-5 at Strasburg will be fully funded for rebuild, and it will run on that excursion railroad for a long time if that happens.  I think last time I checked, they were at about 30% of the funds required.

And also keep an eye on those crazy folks trying to build a 'new' T1 duplex. Seems like a long shot, but they are persistent. So maybe someday, we'll see a Pennsy engine back in steam.

 

Jim

 

Hot Water posted:
Jim Waterman posted:

Just checking here - the K4 parts are now scattered in Altoona, the B&M 3713 in Steamtown, correct?

Correct.

Sure hope there aren't K4 parts in two shops any more.

They are not.

What do the Altoona guys say about the potential for the K4 to ever run again?

That depends on who you talk to and what week you talk to them.

Sad that the PRR saved one of the older worn out K4's (then let it sit on Horseshoe curve for 20 years before attempting to rebuild).

The PRR did NOT "attempt to rebuild" #1361!

Jim

 

Got that - PRR was long gone by the time they put the spur in on Horseshoe curve to take her back to the shop. Still think they should do what the British did - build a brand new one, seems like they will just about do that on this one if it ever happens. At some point, they really should reassemble for display if there is no financially viable way to get her in steam. She's a little small to support the excursion traffic that would justify the expense, as you may note, the N&W J, the SP GS4 449, and UP 844 are all much larger locos, and capable of hauling a 16 car excursion up and down significant grades (I got to ride behind the N&W 611 - no diesel helpers, and she did stall on one of the grades, was quite an interesting time back in car 12 as she tried to take slack and keep from slipping).

 

Jim

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I would very much like to see one run if they could restore any at all. I never got a chance to ask my Uncle when he was in the Marines how he got around whether it was train, bus or what. I can only imagine him going south by train.

What time frame was that, i.e. when was he in the service? That would help determine whether train or bus was used.

Hot Water posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I would very much like to see one run if they could restore any at all. I never got a chance to ask my Uncle when he was in the Marines how he got around whether it was train, bus or what. I can only imagine him going south by train.

What time frame was that, i.e. when was he in the service? That would help determine whether train or bus was used.

My best guess would be 1948-49 as he would be 18 in October of -48. I would have to ask either my sister or my Aunt to help figure that out. Never forget him telling me how a bunch of guys were sitting and waiting. The Marine drill instructor walked in and counted off whatever number and told those people to walk through that door behind some other guy. There was a sigh from someone and the drill instructor said something like, "Those men have joined the Army, you men consider yourselves lucky, you're joining the Marine Corps."

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:
Hot Water posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I would very much like to see one run if they could restore any at all. I never got a chance to ask my Uncle when he was in the Marines how he got around whether it was train, bus or what. I can only imagine him going south by train.

What time frame was that, i.e. when was he in the service? That would help determine whether train or bus was used.

My best guess would be 1948-49 as he would be 18 in October of -48. I would have to ask either my sister or my Aunt to help figure that out. Never forget him telling me how a bunch of guys were sitting and waiting. The Marine drill instructor walked in and counted off whatever number and told those people to walk through that door behind some other guy. There was a sigh from someone and the drill instructor said something like, "Those men have joined the Army, you men consider yourselves lucky, you're joining the Marine Corps."

In my opinion, most definitely the military folks traveled by train, back in that era. When I got drafted, in late 1964, it was pretty much buses.

kgdjpubs posted:
Hot Water posted:
 
A few more questions about oil vs. coal, and suddenly a man asked, "What's the water for?"! I was stunned! One of the few times in my life I have speechless, and the other folks in the cab began to laugh, on top of that. As I tried to regain my composure, the guy got mad, said something unkind to the rest of the folks, and pushed his way out the exit side , and left.
 

This a problem that we as an industry are going to start facing more and more as the years go by.  We are preserving dinosaurs.  This technology is far removed from what people encounter in their daily life, and some really do have no clue as to how and why it works.  More and more, education is the biggest thing we are going to have to deal with in the future.

Kevin

It's not just steam. People have no concept of radial engines in airplanes or any other older technology.

When I show off my WW2 Jeep at military shows, people often want to look under the hood. If they're not a gearhead, I always expect a litany of questions as people today have no concept of a car without fuel injection, computer systems or non-power brakes and steering. At least with steam its been decades since anyone's seen daily steam on mainline railroads, but we're talking about technology that is well within even a relatively young person's lifetime. They also are surprised to find out how fragile a WW2 Jeep really is and how much work you had to put into cars back then, even the civilian ones. No needle-point bearings, fragile gears and transmissions, radiator that often overheated on long trips, etc. I remind them that a WW2 Jeep was considered a disposable vehicle with a 90-day combat lifespan. People say that Jeeps will go anywhere and do anything. I reply, "Yeah, ONCE. Then you had to go get another one." Steam, I'd bet, gets the same reaction. They see this massive beast on the rails and think it's indestructible. They have no idea how much work goes into running one even in excellent condition.

I don't roll my eyes when someone doesn't realize a B-17 wasn't pressurized and the crews just dealt with the frigid cold of high-altitude operations with sheepskins and fragile O2 masks to breathe from. Same with steam, I wouldn't expect the layman to have a clue how 4449 runs...

Mike CT posted:

The last major push to get things done at Steamtown saw the drivers shipped to Tennessee for extensive overhaul/ re-quartering I think.    Drivers were on display at Steamtown when they returned from Tennessee.

Right, and the photos I've seen posted of that "machinery display", shows that none of the highly precision machined surfaces of the axles, nor the crankpins, are protected in any way!

Hot Water posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:
Hot Water posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I would very much like to see one run if they could restore any at all. I never got a chance to ask my Uncle when he was in the Marines how he got around whether it was train, bus or what. I can only imagine him going south by train.

What time frame was that, i.e. when was he in the service? That would help determine whether train or bus was used.

My best guess would be 1948-49 as he would be 18 in October of -48. I would have to ask either my sister or my Aunt to help figure that out. Never forget him telling me how a bunch of guys were sitting and waiting. The Marine drill instructor walked in and counted off whatever number and told those people to walk through that door behind some other guy. There was a sigh from someone and the drill instructor said something like, "Those men have joined the Army, you men consider yourselves lucky, you're joining the Marine Corps."

In my opinion, most definitely the military folks traveled by train, back in that era. When I got drafted, in late 1964, it was pretty much buses.

Well, drafted was not the term my uncle used. He said "volunteered by the community" or something like that. Only reason I remember was because I said drafted to him. Either way it is still the same thing and he was proud to serve.

My grandfather, he came to American in the very early 1900's, think it was 1908 or 1909. He got a job working with the pipeline not sure when exactly but he was all over the country. We know he was in St. Louis for a bit as someone has his bank book from then. The steamers he must have traveled on. He passed away when I was not quite 2, so I never really got to know him.

p51 posted:
kgdjpubs posted:
Hot Water posted:
 
A few more questions about oil vs. coal, and suddenly a man asked, "What's the water for?"!

This a problem that we as an industry are going to start facing more and more as the years go by.  We are preserving dinosaurs. 

It's not just steam. People have no concept of radial engines in airplanes or any other older technology.

Same with steam, I wouldn't expect the layman to have a clue how 4449 runs...

Y'all have a point there. The time is coming (or here already) when some of us will be saying, "Nah, I don't use a remote or program anything, I just hook up these two wires, turn this knob thingy and the train goes." We will get the same incredulous reaction.

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

That is a important engine in our history, the K4s moved a lot of military around during the wars. Build a new boiler for it already,  maybe we should call or email our representatives to have the boiler made and get her put back together and send her to steam town PA., Wow a working US road engine there ,  wow what concept.

Sure, send it BACK to Steam Town????

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

Build a new boiler for it already,  maybe we should call or email our representatives to have the boiler made and get her put back together and send her to steam town PA., Wow a working US road engine there ,  wow what concept.

Why would anyone involved with the government want to approve spending even more money on it?  This project has already burned through $2M of taxpayer money and for what?  No one is going to approve spending more money because a couple of foamers ask them to.

cta4391 posted:
John Pignatelli JR. posted:

Build a new boiler for it already,  maybe we should call or email our representatives to have the boiler made and get her put back together and send her to steam town PA., Wow a working US road engine there ,  wow what concept.

Why would anyone involved with the government want to approve spending even more money on it?  This project has already burned through $2M of taxpayer money and for what?  No one is going to approve spending more money because a couple of foamers ask them to.

It cost 2 million to build a boiler ????, I meant , to be sent to Steam town after it was to be fabricated by a experienced bunch down in Spencer.

Read that newspaper article _ the government has already invested $3.8M in that K4. Looks like a pretty poor return on investment so far. So the plan wasn't so good because of the condition of the engine, but they've fixed a lot of stuff. They have put what appears to be good money after bad in continuous repair of the boiler and it's still far from done. So a good modern welded boiler that can hold 300 PSI is a pretty good idea and keeps the engine running for the next 30 years at 80 MPH instead of maybe 5 at 175 PSI and 45 MPH maximum for the repaired boiler that will never meet FRA specs. For an iconic (and rare - only 2 in existence) engine, sounds like a deal. If you ever watch the videos of the N&W J 611 running at speed, you'll understand what I'm saying. I think they spent about $5M recently on it's rebuild, which was done well and should keep her running for a long time.

 

 

John Pignatelli JR. posted:
cta4391 posted:
John Pignatelli JR. posted:

Build a new boiler for it already,  maybe we should call or email our representatives to have the boiler made and get her put back together and send her to steam town PA., Wow a working US road engine there ,  wow what concept.

Why would anyone involved with the government want to approve spending even more money on it?  This project has already burned through $2M of taxpayer money and for what?  No one is going to approve spending more money because a couple of foamers ask them to.

It cost 2 million to build a boiler ????, I meant , to be sent to Steam town after it was to be fabricated by a experienced bunch down in Spencer.

Stranger things happen, usually added to the $3 trillion a year deficit.   I was working at the new VA clinic, Rochester, PA, last week, there has been a lot of money shuffled to the VA system in the last couple of years with more to be spent.  There were interesting sliding doors (Barn doors) to the patient care areas.  The carpenters were  having difficulties installing and adjusting the doors.  You never want to ask the question: How much did those cost?, on a government job.  $5000 each, total project add was $90,000.    Never say never, when the gov. is involved.    Further discussion was that, may be, the Barn doors would be nixed on the next clinic.  We (fed government) do have a way of spending, so don't scrap 1361 just yet.  $3 trillion is $10,000 out of your pocket, if you got it.    

Great thread, thanks to Dave M and all who participated.   

     

As much as I love Tuscan Red, I think it would be better to have a world class display of her on the inside of the building.

As Steve Lee said, a steam engine burns money.

Instead of running 1361, have the display and have a live steam model of her.  That combo would be the best I think of educating people about steam power.

Most people looking at an operating steamer really do not care about the railroad, class, et. al.  I wonder how many children ask, at least in there minds, why the engine is not painted blue?

Last edited by Dominic Mazoch

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