Keystone Model Works hoppers

I have a couple of H25's from Bob Parri, PSC, and now Keystone Model Works.   My GLa's are from PSC and Yoder.  KMW cars are the top of the line due to the prototype research and attention to detail done by partner Steve Grabowski.  I find that Yoder and Pacific Limited H21a's are almost as well detailed as the KMW offering and can be found for significantly less money. The brass H21a to avoid is the PSC model as the end sill is noticeably wrong and a bear to fix.  In deciding which PRR H21a model to add to the roster one is faced with making some interesting value judgments due to the range of model choices.

While I had a large roster of painted PRR brass hoppers of various classes I found I needed 30 more  H21a's to support the coal traffic generated by my newly completed Tyrone and Clearfield branch line.  The cost for that number of brass models was a budget buster (not to mention time to paint/letter them) so I compromised and went for AtlasO H21a's.  The biggest visual drawback with the AtlasO H21a is the fat top cord, but otherwise it is a very creditable model at a far lower cost than the brass alternatives. 

If you want the very best you can't go wrong with Keystone Model Works freight cars.  For trucks to go under brass PRR quad hoppers I recommend Yoder's Crown Cast 70T truck - they are spot on.

Ed Rappe

Brad,

I had a KMW GLa, very nice model, but not made for the railroad. The grabs are so fine you can blow on them and bend them. I ended up trading it away and am very happy I did.

With the Lionel GLa release coming out soon, I'd keep an eye out for the Yoder and PSC GLa's to hit the market. They are both very nice cars.

George Losse

George

It will be interesting to see how accurate the Lionel GLa's are - especially since they propose to use some common tooling in making a USRA twin.  There are differences between the cubic capacity of the two prototypes due largely to height, as well as vertical rib profiles.  I'll be an prospective customer for a half dozen Berwind GLa's if they are visually close to the prototype.  With Lionel products I've learned not to pre-order.  Witness the very nicely done PFE R40-23's - I have several.  A couple of years later they offered PFE R40-26 and R40-27 derivatives - but didn't bother to change the roof tooling to model the prototype's diagonal panels.  Lionel does some very nice scale dimensioned cars - but you have to watch to see if the compromises they have taken meet your standards.

Ed Rappe

Ed Rappe said-

"they propose to use some common tooling in making a USRA twin"

Uh, oh.

With work you can make a fairly reasonable GLa out of an Intermountain USRA twin but I fail to see how you can use "common tooling" except maybe for minor bits.

Guess I'll wait (like you) to see what the actual product is like.

Ed,

I'm curious to see how much common tooling there really is. The two cars are different and represent 15+ years of freight car development between them. 

I built a couple of GLa's out of the IM USRA twins and they are different. Besides the rib contours being different, the cars have 6" difference in inside length, 8 inches of difference in top of side sill height and 4 inches of difference in bottom of side to top of rail height. I could never correct the 4 inch difference in top of rail to bottom of side height because it meant pushing the under frame up into the car more.

I know that doesn't sound like much but it really is visible.

We'll see, but I hope Lionel does the GLa right and the USRA Twin a little off. O Scale already has a really beautiful USRA Twin, it could use a good plastic GLa. Worst case is if they try to find a happy spot in between both and do them both wrong.

George Losse

Anybody want to wager on that being the final outcome,

I'm looking to see if GLa's are reasonably acceptable as well.

My impression is that Keystone, Parri, et.al. are for a different market than Lionel.  It is indeed nice when accurate, inexpensive trains show up, but the average Lionel customer wouldn't know the difference (neither would I, and I do not buy plastic models as a rule).

Would you change expensive tooling to satisfy 3% of your potential market?

In building a roster to support my circa 1952 PRR railroad I really don't care what the model is made of or who made it.  My objective for rolling stock is for it to look like the prototype to knowledgeable fellow modelers from 1' away - and operate reliably in 35 car long trains.  Some times that may cost $20 for an Intermountain 37 AAR box car kit  or in very rare cases $500+ for dual PRR F22 16" gun carriage flats by Rich Yoder.  Fortunately in today's O scale resale market one can build up a very interesting 50's era roster with a well balanced mix of mass produced plastic and some brass models sprinkled in.

I understand Lionel's sweet spot for detail isn't that same as mine and I understand why Lionel may cut corners to satisfy their main market while holding down cost.  I  look at Lionel and MTH rolling stock for targets of opportunity to fill in the roster at lower price points than brass.  Along with Martin, George, and quite a few other O scalers I know we'll be interested to see what compromises Lionel makes in tooling up for the GLa and USRA twins.  Those two prototypes really don't have much in common once you get past 2 hopper bays and the rib count.  Since we already have excellent plastic USRA twins on the market my hope is that Lionel bases their tooling  on the PRR Gla - with the USRA model somewhat compromised.  

2 railers may not have the numbers to really shape Lionel's market (but they're making provision to mount Kadee couplers )  - I'll be waiting in the wings to put money down if they deliver a nice GLa.

Ed Rappe

My very optimistic, albeit unrealistic, hope is Lionel does the GLa spot on, because many modelers will buy Pennsy, and then compromises to tweak them into other models, like the USRA Twin.  

But like others I am not pre ordering these. I learned a long time ago that a) Lionel's track record is producing high fidelity cars is not that good and b) There is always plenty of supply available

Good.  We need an optimist to balance out the card carrying the pessimist......me.

The catalog photos are of the same car whether identified as a “GLa” or a “50 ton” hopper. Lionel states on the catalog page that “Lionel is tooling this car with multiple detail sets to replicate the major differences between the Pennsylvania GLA “1905 Common Design” and USRA standard hoppers as appropriate for each road name.”

In the photo of the “GLA” the car sits too high-expected with the lobster claw couplers and giant flanges-hopefully correctable with Scale wheels and KD couplers and fiddling. Maybe (optimism!) the Lionel will perform mods to make “USRA” twins-different ends, e.g. with the understanding that PRR foamers won’t touch them if they’re wrong but the rest of the toy train world won’t notice or care about caricature USRA twins, and the fastidious can still buy Atlas or Intermoiuntain cars. Worse news for me, anyway, is the PRR version comes with post-1952  lettering. So mine, if I buy them (at $70+ a pop retail) is that they will have to be repainted. But then the Lionel X31 cars needed to be repainted, as I recall.

Here are images of a KMW h21 shallow door hopper.   According to Steve Grabowski, 30 models were made....   They are quite intriguing visually and unsurpassed in execution....   I need to decal and lightly weather---stay tuned!

Greetings Ed,

I feel your pain! Even if you could find them at $200 a pop (not likely), you would have 6K tied up! Ouch!

Just curious how important under-body detail on cars was to you?

Simon

Simon - underbody detail is a must on my hopper fleet as much of my coal branch is close up at eye level and above.

Ed Rappe