KnobKnee & Boredom Railroad - Plan Updated 02/26/2012

quote:

It seems to me that I'm wasting a lot of space with distance between tracks in the yard averaging about 5.5".

You are losing a lot of space with 5.5 inch centers in the yard. What track are you using? If you are using Atlas, MTH Scaletrax or Ross track you can tichten down the spacing to about 3.5 inches with the Atlas #5, MTH #4 or the Ross #4 or Ross Regular switches.


BTW the Atlas #5, MTH #4 and Ross Regular are all 11 1/4 degree switches so a 1/2 section of O-72 curve will bring the next track back to parallel and an 22 1/2 degree crossing will make a double crossover.

Layout looks nice. I agree with Ted. The turnouts make a big difference when trying to make everything fit. They will fill up quickly and you will start looking for more real estate. Enjoy.

Ross #4s are designed to give you exact 3.5" spacing. You can achieve that with the other turnouts if you are willing to introduce a little kink between turnouts to get the diverging routes back into parallel. I am sure that is not a recommended procedure, but I can tell you it has worked fine for us--granted, everything we run has tinplate wheels.

The trouble with squeezing your tracks closer together, though, is that you are trading length for width. Narrowing your yard increases the length of the ladder and may actually cost you storage space. You will have to plot it out and see. Ross sells a nice 4-way turnout set to help get maximum track in minimum length.

You may want to look into having two interconnected sub-yards--a way of getting the same number of tracks, but with two shorter ladders instead of one long one--more length taken up by tracks and less by turnouts. What you sacrifice is the ability to easily move a car from any track of the yard to any other track (some movements will require you to back all the way out of one yard, to shove the car into a track in the other). You can mitigate that problem by having the yards serve different purposes: one for eastbound traffic and the other for westbound, e.g.; or use one to handle a specific commodity or type of traffic that you like to run a lot, and doesn't necessarily interact much with other trains, e.g., a coach yard, or a yard for trains of grain or coal or containers.
(I will try to sketch something later to illustrate; can't edit an rrt file).

Thanks guys. I'm using Ross switches and Gargraves Flex Track. When I try to stick with this basic configuration and do as Ted and nickaix suggested I do lose a lot of length and the more acute angle of the yard body prevents through traffic from meeting up again with the reverse loop.

nickaix, I look forward to your sketches and any other ideas. I'm open to a completely different configuration of the yard and industrial area that preserves the wye.

Steve, Make the top siding double ended, and make it your ladder track. You will get shorter sidings, but more of them when using ross switches.

Father.dragon. I've done that but lose a lot of yard track in the process and also end up with a lot of other space to fill. The big problem seems to be the angle of the yard lead. It seems to preclude the use of switches that will allow closer spacing if I stay with this configuration.

Ok, this is what I meant by the two sub-yards. This is my best guess as to what it would look like with Ross #4s (hopefully it is not too over-optimistic). The red connection would complete the reverse loop, but I don't know whether it can actually be made to fit. Another possibility would be to start one of the yards in the lower-left corner, with the ends of the tracks at the upper right. That arrangement would place the turnouts closer to the edge of the table--worth considering.

Nickaix - That's intriguing. Looks like it would add about 20 feet of yard track overall. I'll see if I can work that in. Thanks.

Here is a first attempt using Nickaix's suggestion. Gained a lot of yard track.

Made a few changes to improve operations. Suggestions welcome.

How do you plan to turn engines and keep yard throat clear?

Gunny

Looks like I was not too far off base in my guesses after all!
A couple of thoughts:
Do you need the crossover between the shortest track in the coach yard and the longest track in the freight yard? For what reason will you need to move from one yard to the other? You might gain some more classification space by removing it. (Unless you have it for moving the passenger locos to and from the engine tracks--then it make sense.)
Will trains pull into this yard, or back in? Back-in motion certainly has precedent with passenger trains. It is less common with freight. If trains are to be pulled in, then you need a way for the engine to "escape" --a crossover at the end of the arrival track. Of course, this shortens the arrival track, and your tracks are short to begin with.
Maybe you can use the diagonal reverse track as an arrival track? The train pulls in at the upper right, the engine is cut off at the lower left and travels thru the loop to reach the engine tracks, thereby reversing it. I doubt that arrangement would be usual in the prototype, but it could work here. Then a switcher can pull the train backwards into the straight side of the wye, which serves as a lead, and begin shunting cars into the appropriate tracks. (You will need a switcher pocket someplace in the 'throat' of the yard). Meanwhile passenger trains can still enter and exit the coach yard. Of course, no freight train can come or go during this time, but in a yard this size, how much can you ask for?

Sorry, I am kind of thinking out loud here, how this yard would be used; I think it could work pretty well.

Gunny, in current configuration, engines would have to go out to the wye. I had originally planned that the blue line would be all industrial or yard track, not a third main. But, it would be nice to let a slow freight make its way around the blue line without running into traffic.

nickaix, thanks for the suggestions. I'm tearing up the yard again to see if I can come up with a different configuration that eliminates the stub sidings. I'm reading through Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong but still having trouble conceptualizing how I can create a workinng yard in the space I have.

KnobKnee....have you considered moving your yards over to the long wall (top in your drawing) and using the center of the layout as your "town/city/industrial" area? This of course would mean a redesign but I think the flow and operation characteristics of your layout would achieve your stated desires. The freight yard could then be open ended and you would have room for at least a couple of the Bridgeboss trainsheds sections joined together.

Just a thought???

Alan

Leavingtracks, I had a long thread here several months ago that did just that. Here's an example of that layout design. I just didn't like the hidden yard tracks and the large city. However, I believe I'll try moving the yard to the left side of the layout and incorporate the runaround in the city. My only concern with that is the 70' passenger cars and the O54 maximum curve.

Steve

Steve...I don't blame you about not liking the hidden yard. But, the design is better IMHO. Perhaps if you did away with the city/town in the upper right hand corner which appears to be above the tracks...just take that out. Then...move it over to the center section similar to what you are showing above..but instead elevate it with tracks going under the city. Going back to the yard...you could still have the light blue track going over the yard and would give you an opportunity to have a beautiful elevated bridge/girder structure. You even have room to extend the yard tracks a little longer toward the left. My track plan is very, very, close to what you have. I have an aerial view of what I am talking about so I will post it in the next reply...got to go find the pictures....

Alan

OK Steve...here you go. In the first picture, you will see my freight yard is along the longest wall which would represent the top of your drawing. Across from the freight yard you see the train shed with the city elevated above the tracks and the tracks going underneath the city. This would be the same area as in the center of your layout. In the next picture you can see the same area from the opposite direction with the center area on the right. It looks like you could do something similar but perhaps having a stub end passenger yard under the city...but you could then have a shed covering some of the tracks. I hope this all helps...but in no way do my suggestions imply that my plan is better than yours. You are the one that really knows what you can or can not do...that is why this hobby is so much fun!!

Alan

Leavingtracks, do you have a RRT file of the layout or other diagram that I could review?

Thanks,

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by KnobKnee:
It's been months since I've posted. Economy took it's toll on my adult children and my train money disappeared! I used this time to follow other threads and make some major changes to my plan. I'm pretty pleased with the current plan but am struggling with the island and the large yard and industrial areas. It seems to me that I'm wasting a lot of space with distance between tracks in the yard averaging about 5.5". I'll be running MTH premier diesels and 70' passenger cars and will want a working freight yard and industrial sidings as well. I'd love to work in a large passenger shed like the one LeavingTracks has on his layout. Any suggestions on how to better use this 17' x 5' plus island would be greatly appreciated.

Steve

There have been some very interesting suggestions so far. Let me offer something a bit different and combine a few things already mentioned. To me the most glaring change to be made is on the island. Currently it’s attached to the rest by way of the lower right hand land-bridge. I’d say, extend the right end of the island to connect to the mainline and eliminate the connection in the current location. That will make the island longer and have the approach turns occupy less space on the island. Now to add to that, why not add a staging area under the island? It’s the perfect place for it. You have plenty of space to drop the approach to it and view what’s going on down there should be easier from more locations. It also won’t require you to make many changes to the main body of the layout. One last thought if you would. If you do extend the island you may want to think about converting all or part of the walkway at the bottom right to table space by not extending the walkway (farthest counter clockwise) all the way to the right when you remove the current land-bridge. That should provide a great place for a small rail- yard or anything else.

Gizzmo

Steve...below is a photo of the piece of paper I designed the entire layout on....yep, I am embarrassed but I had the vision in my head and in about an hour I sketched it all on notebook paper. I had intended many times to do a nice neat cad drawing but just never got around to it. So...you may have to look very closely to get the idea but you can see that about the only difference between your plan and mine is that I joined the center "island" on the right side and then used broad curves to get into the area from the around the room portions of the layout. I also have a wider room so I was able to broaden the end of the island so that I could loop the trains for a return off of the island. Hope this helps....

Alan

Here's a start on a new idea based on the latest suggestions. No industry sidings yet and will want to add switcher and caboose tracks as well as an engine maintenance facility. Just want to work on the yard layout first.

Steve...I think you are off to a better start... In my plan I submitted to you, I used all right hand turnouts in both the freight and passenger yards because this allowed me to have yard tracks all the same length and actually increased the amount of storage space. You may want to see if this works for you in the upper part of your plan...I assume this is your freight yard. In the center island area you have enough room to have a track go around the outside edge which will give you more operating possibilities. In my plan I actually have a "WYE" like you do but I didn't draw it in...in any case that wye is going to be very handy!!

You are on your way to having a track plan that will allow you to run longer trains AND have your passenger train shed which will look great in the center of the room!!

Alan

Very nice Steve.
Are you thinking of putting staging under the island?
I like the upper yard design. It looks Like a good use of space.
I also like what looks like a run around for the engine on the right end. I would suggest a much longer version of the same on the left. Also try to keep the "throat" to yard as long as possible. That will allow you to use the yard without interfering with the main-line.

Gizzmo

Here are some revisions based on your suggestions. I had a O54 runaround in the island at first but had second thoughts since I am running 70' scale passenger cars. In this revision I've tried to use O72 but not so sure I'll have enough aisle space at that point. I've also included some labels noting areas on the layout. We have a large collection of the Christmas village structures that I want on an upper snowy level. Also have some Coca Cola Village structures that may or may not go on the layout. The goal is to have a small city that would represent our town of 40,000 in the 1950's, a small rural town and farmland along the mainline and the Christmas village up in the knobs of southern Indiana.

Thanks guys,.

Steve

Steve....the plan is getting better!! The O72 will be just fine especially since you will only be pinching the isleway down only in a very small area. As you bring that track around and connect it within the center trackage in the room, you will basically be adding another mainline! By the way...I see that in the yard you have a track that parallels the ladder track of switches which is a very good idea. I did the same thing only after I found that it was not a good idea to run the mainline trains through all of the yard turnouts!! I now have the same thing going along side of my passenger turnouts.

Alan

Since you have 3 foot walkways on your drawing, you can reduce those down to 24 inches when you need to.

The reason 24 inches is ok is the same reason that places like Home Depot and Lowe's sell 24 inch doors - sometimes a small doorway is necessary. Yes, I have some in my house. Walking through them is just like any other door.

Having a few squeeze points down to 24 inches isn't going to hurt a thing.

A bit more progress. Thanks Terry your comments were very helpful. I just want to be sure I have plenty of room for multiple operators.

Steve

Gizmo, I've thought about staging under the island but haven't taken the time to incorporate. Will likely wait until I finalize the upper levels. I also don't anticipate having that much rolling stock.

Steve

I've been working on the scenic themes and making changes to the plan to accommodate the different areas I want to model. A good start on the city and the passenger terminal area. Also have some industry in place with room for more on that siding with additional opportunities for industry around the wye area. The Christmas village will be elevated and snow on the ground year round to accommodate my wife's Thomas Kincaid Christmas village collection and a bump 'n go trolley.

Also have a good start on the rural town and farm land.

Any ideas or suggestions are welcomed.

Steve

This looks much nicer! We were really kind of forcing it with the old yard location. Even if you don't feel like you will need the staging build it. You will be glad you did. Now is the time to figure out where the grade from the staging level will be and how it will connect to the railroad. Remember, even if you don't need the staging for storage, it adds interest to the layout by representing the "other end" of your "railroad". It gives your trains somewhere to go.

Ok, I took your advice and in the process discovered that I may be able to work with multiple levels! Take a look at the blue line. It starts descending on a 3% grade just below the wye and wraps around the outer edge of the island until it disappears under the island through a reversing loop and then back out the way it came. This leaves a lot of opportunity to create a staging yard where a train could disappear under the island and another train could emerge in its place. One question. The lower level track is 7.5 inches below the track above it. Is that enough or should I allow more space?

I also did some work on the lead tracks into either end of the yard and gained some longer leads that will be helpful. I'm a bit concerned about the switches at the top of the yard that permit trains to move from the yard to the mains. Seems to be some "S" curves that will be troublesome. I'd like to avoid the Ross double crossovers if possible due to their cost. Any ideas?

Steve....

Since essentially you have reproduced almost exactly the track plan I have on my layout, I can only attest to how mine operates. I think you will enjoy this layout plan...it uses the space to its advantage and especially using the center "island" as your main city/passenger facility will allow you to visually separate areas of the layout from one another. Glad I was able to help!!

Alan

Here is an idea for the lower level staging yard under the island. After reading another post on lower level staging I made the lower level 12" below the upper level so access would be easier. I show only one siding but more can be added. I was also able to work in a complete loop in this area adding another opportunity for a subway. I did not include any sidings on the side of the island where the grade track will likely obstruct the ability to reach in. The grade is a steep 3.2% but hopefully my engines will be able to make it up ok.

Steve

I've been working on fine tuning the main level and scenery and expanding the lower level staging yard a bit. Still a lot of opportunity in the lower level yard especially under the classification yard at the top of the layout. I've increased the distance between the main level and the lower level to 12" which should give me enough "reach in space" and have tried to keep any switches in the lower level easily within reach. Please take a look and should you have any comments or suggestions I welcome them.

Steve

I've been working on the yard leads and need some critique on the latest changes.

1. Extended outer lead on left side of drawing. This provides two leads into the yard from the green line. Both provide service to rural industry on sidings and on the lead. If one lead is fowled an incoming/outgoing train should be able to use the alternate lead.

2. Made major changes to the passenger yard leads and the wye. The wye was part of the green line and the green line would get fowled when turning a train. I relocated the wye, added some crossovers and created a lead under the Christmas village. The lead out of the top of the Wye isn't very long but it goes to the yard rather than fowling the green line.

The green line can now accommodate a couple of trains running the loop without interference. The green line can go through the city or bypass it.

I grayed out the lower level staging yard and its lead and can send trains to that level and through a reverse loop or to the hidden yard. See below.

Any suggestions are welcome and would especially like a close look at the 11 degree crossing at the top of the wye.

Steve
Upper Level Trackage


Lower Lever Staging Yard and Reverse Loop


Upper Level with proposed scenery

After installing RRTrack version 5 and using the new simulator to look at the distance between tracks on curves, I made some changes to be sure 80' scale passenger cars would make it through those curves without incident. I only have 70' scale cars but this way I'll be ready should I wish to run them on the layout. I also got rid of the expensive crossovers replacing them with Ross #6 turnouts. While I was at it I squeezed in another yard track in the classification yard.

Steve




New classification yard with additional track

I've been working on the tight curve around the crossover on the left top of the layout as viewed in the graphic. I was able to replace the curved turnouts with the 072/054 Ross turnout and use the 11 degree crossover. That should make for smoother operation for the larger passenger cars through that area. While I was at it, I managed to add another 3 feet to each of the classification yard tracks.

I've been using the new simulation view of RRTrack 5.0. It's been very helpful to "watch" long passenger cars on the curves on the curves to ensure adequate spacing between tracks. Now I am questioning the distance from the main "cyan" line to the back and left walls. The main line will be on a grade leading up to the Christmas village on both side walls and I'm concerned the right side main is too close to the wall - about 1 inch. That leads me to think about removing the purple line all together. I would lose that line but would gain more room to get the main away from the walls and add some slight curves to add interest as trains traverse the grades. It would also allow more scenery, especially around Boredom, the rural area of the layout and allow some additional sidings or passing sidings.

What would you do?

KnobKnee Ilike what your doing so far. I ll be starting a tear down of my old layout i do plan to do around room layout starting in march keep up the updates  vince.

Thanks Vince. I have done a lot of work on the design since that last post. Will likely update again this weekend.

 

Steve