KTM-US Hobbies M1b help

I love these kinds of threads; fire away, gentlemen! 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Will reversing one of the motor mounts help it fit?

Carefully pick up that open frame motor with one hand at arms length, take your other hand and pinch off your nose, and walk over to your waste receptacle and insert motor. Now remove your fingers from your nose…..

seriously, install a can motor, you & your buddy will be so much happier,…..a 9433 Pittman will fit in the cab of the M1a,…..a 8000 series Pittman will be a super easy fit, and will power that locomotive just fine……

Pat

What Pat said, especially the 8000-series, which turns faster and has plenty of power.  However, if you really need it, I can pull the M1a apart and take a photo.  Ought to be really close to the M1b.

Pat and Bob

I would never second guess you guys, since you are probably among the most experienced builders on this site, but I have to ask: "why?"... regarding those tried and true big open frame motors?

I have plenty of can motored units, both steam and diesel and they are great, but...

...I also have several of those "old school" open frames (Pittman and CLW) in O and my S scale Enhorning F unit has one and they are all smooth and quiet and capable.

So what am I missing here? Please explain...and be gentle! 😁😁😁

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Pat and Bob

I would never second guess you guys, since you are probably among the most experienced builders on this site, but I have to ask: "why?"... regarding those tried and true big open frame motors?

I have plenty of can motored units, both steam and diesel and they are great, but...

...I also have several of those "old school" open frames (Pittman and CLW) in O and my S scale Enhorning F unit has one and they are all smooth and quiet and capable.

So what am I missing here? Please explain...and be gentle! 😁😁😁

Mark in Oregon

Simple, the open frame motor is Stone Age technology…….there’s no way that open frame will be as smooth as a can motor…

Pat

Fair enough. Thanks for being kind! 😄

Mark in Oregon

It's not the original KTM motor.

I might have one if you want to keep it original.

Jay

I don't agree that you have to get rid of the open frame motors.    I have a quite a few USH locos with open frame motors and they run very smoothly and quietly.    They are all converted to DCC now and there are not problems with that.     They all draw a little less current than the typical Pittman 8514 motor in my Weaver diesel models.

I also have a few Max Grey locos.   On those either I or the previous owners replaced the motors.    This is not because the motors were bad, they were just too slow on the ones I did if you can imagine that.

As to this loco, a few things do look right to me.    I  don't have an M1B but it should be the same as an M1A or the I1 I have mechanically.    the M1B differences from the M1a are internal, and maybe some appliances. The M1b were just rebuilt M1a locos.    First that universal is not an original part.    If you look at the worm gear shaft, there is a 6 (or 8) sided nut type fitting on the end of the shaft.    The original motor would have an identical fitting.   The original joint was a fiberglass or similar tube of hard non-metallic material with female joints on each end to match that fitting.    This device also has a spring in the middle.

Second the motor looks well used and not original.    That may be a CLW or AN motor. 

Those are most likely not the original motor mounts.     The frame on these is chemically blackened as they come new, but the motor mounts on all I have seen are not paint or blackened they are unpainted brass.   however those do look like typical USH motor mounts in the photos.   

the motor has to fit inside the fire box, which extends into the cab but is a good 3/8 inch narrower on each side, and of course shorter.

From where you are now, you probably have to get a replacement motor.    It could be an original open frame, I think, or it could be a can motor, but it has to be short enough to fit up into the firebox area.   And the chances of finding the original style universal are pretty slim.     So you may have to remove that fitting from the worm shaft and put in a typical universal.    If you can get an original motor you could use those motor mounts and the only work is installing a universal.    If  you convert to a can motor, you can use those mounts but they will have to be modified most likely,  or you may have to fabricate new ones.

Addendum:    I was totally wrong on the universal jount.    Precision Scale has them listed on page 305 of the Steam loco catalogue currently on their website - item 909.     So it is possible to get the original style if the shafts are are the same.   It inclues the "nuts" for 5 MM shaft.   

The Pittman 8514 motor is junk. For $2.50 more, Weaver could have purchased the 8524, which has superior magnets - less heat, more power.

Sure - balance the armature in those old open frame motors and they may be almost as good as a good Pittman can - don't forget, before Pittman started making can motors they made the ones shown.

If I wanted my M1a to be as smooth and as much a puller as my Max GS-5, I would put an 8524, a Yoyota # 0 hose, and a NWSL Mod 0.6 non- tower in it.  But the M1 can wait - in the last 35 years it has made three noisy trips around the 70" loop.  I'd rather run a scratchbuilt 4-10-2.  Makes me feel better.

Glad I don't have to disassemble for photos.

Jay, Jim, Bob;

thank you for your input. particularly on the original drive joint. that's a big help. There is a hex nut soldered to the gearbox shaft. I have a couple 8000 series motors I can see if fits. Although my first glance with one showed it too long to fit properly.

Jay can you message me about the OEM motor? Bob, is the Toyota #0 hose only available at a dealer?

Update:

Bill Davis has the USH coupling, and I found a 8000 series Pittman and mount I can use that fits. I just need to fabricate an angle for the mount.

Progress.

Chris,

Though I don't particularly like those couplings, they are probably what came with the model.  I have a bunch of them also.  I rarely use them but, being a pack rat, I never throw them away either.  Interesting thing about the drawing in the PSC catalog, they usually, if not always came with two of the coil springs.  Supposed to keep the whole thing centered.

I'm going to attach a link to a current ebay auction.  It's not the M1 but, a Sante Fe 4-8-4, by clicking on the primary photo you can see what an original configuration looks like.  I'm willing to bet, yours originally looked almost the same.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/15488...1:g:SdEAAOSwg7RiJAQO

Jay

Wow... that's a timely listing...👍

Mark in Oregon

Thanks Jay. I agree.

what is it about the coupling you don’t like? Is it sloppy, or does the Delrin wear out?

what attracts me is I don’t have to mess with the gearbox side, and the motor shaft is the correct size.

Chris,

I find them to be noisy especially after they've been run for a while.  The plastic (Delrin?) wears and gets sloppy.  This is especially true the further out of alignment the motor's output shaft and the gearbox's input shaft are.  I much prefer the longest shaft possible from the gearbox and using heavy wall rubber tubing (like the Toyota).  I used to get mine from Toyota but now they want a part number I don't know what it is.  The last two times I just went to a local auto parts store and looked through the tubing they offered.  Some will say the rubber gets hard, brittle, and breaks after a period of time.  Sure, after twenty years, maybe.  All of these models are actually, just small precision machines that should be serviced periodically.  This includes cleaning and re-lubricating the gearbox.  While doing so, replace the tubing.

Often times the bearing support (between the gearbox and motor) needs to be adjusted but frequently, with the longer shaft, we discussed, it isn't needed.  The heavy wall rubber tubing provides plenty of support for keeping things aligned.

One last thing for this post, try to get the two shafts to be about 1/8" apart where they meet.  Almost all of the USH steam gearboxes have 4mm shafts and I find it easier to just make my own using precision ground mild steel (12L14, or LedLoy).  While you're at it, it's the perfect time to install ball bearings and clean up the inside of the gearbox.

Jay

If you guys want to get away from noisy couplings, or trying to find rubber hose that’ll work, then look into these: …..these are RC car double universal slip joint shafts. They come in a dizzying array of lengths, and coupling ends ( 3mm, 4mm, 5mm, etc.,..) the slip joint and barrel end can also be trimmed to just about any custom length,….pretty cheap too, and some US suppliers keep these on the shelf, so wait times aren’t horrible….this has become my standard drive shaft for all my upgrades, be it 2 rail or 3 rail,…. BTW, these are solid steel, in fact, they’re spun steel, so they’re super strong…these are not cheap pot metal,..

Pat

I think this is the Toyota hose.  Quality is way above garden variety vacuum hose from Pep Boys

https://www.yotashop.com/toyot...um-hose-90999-92004/

PJay is on the right track - the longer you make that worm shaft, and the closer it comes to the motor shaft, the less you need to worry about torque wrap-up.  Then you can get rid of that bearing block.

Easiest motor mount is a cradle of brass tube, held to the frame with a couple 4-40 flat head screws and spacers for the correct angle.  A piece of rubber and some aircraft safety wire and you are done.  Photo if I can find one.

Unlike most, I do not care for the USH gear box.  It works, but it shows.  I like to hide the non-steam stuff, and my gearboxes hide behind the drivers.

Bob2

Thanks for including that link; however, it just shows the home page. Do you have a part number?  Thank you.

Mark in Oregon

PS: for those of us who don't get to see many locos like this, a discussion along these lines are super interesting and much appreciated. 🙂

I even use these sometimes.  The motor mount is one of my castings meant for the Pittman 8xxx & 9xxx.

Bob,

I have to call you out on this.  The tubing isn't from Pep Boys.  A real auto parts store and made in the USA.  Toyota's better?  You don't really know that and neither do I, or do you?

Just so everyone knows, Bob & I are friends in real life, so my statement isn't meant to be an attack on him.

Jay

All very much appreciated!

Here’s where I am now: Made a bracket for the 8000 Pittman mount I have. Block of wood aside, alignment is very close to perfect. Bracket gets soldered to mount.

May add a rear support once I test operation.

I used a shorter cased motor to check clearance in the shell. If I see enough room I’ll switch to a longer cased motor.

Right now shafts are 3/8” apart. I can get that to 1/4”. Gearbox shaft is original long length.

Shaft diameters is 5/32”. Good for Toyota tubing?

Okay, last one for today.  This was purported to be a pilot model for a Max Gray SP 2-10-2.  Had a universal motor, huge open gears, and a really crude main driver.

i made a new main and redid the remaining drivers (narrowed the tread and brought them up to today's standards).  Also had to do a lot of work on the rods.  Installed a NWSL gearbox and a Faulhaber motor along with a huge flywheel.  Yeah, I like flywheels.

The purpose of this post is to show the longer shaft coming from the gearbox.  Later I replace the tubing with heavy walled.   Once this was done I could have removed the center support but did not.  The thing actually ran really well.

Funny thing is, I saw it listed on ebay years later and it was said to have a Sofuie (SIC) drive.  I message the seller but never heard back and they never changed the listing.

Jay

Nice. Is that tubing Toyota?

Mark in Oregon

Chris,

The Pittman is 5/32" (.1562"), the shaft from the typical USH gearbox is 4mm (.1575") for a difference of .0013".  Often it's not critical but sometimes it is.  The use of the heavy wall tubing mitigates it.  Having said that it almost looks like your is 5mm.  Can you measure it?

Jay

Mark,

On the purported MG 2-10-2?  No, it was just some stuff I had laying around.  I replaced it with the Toyota tubing later but didn't take a photo.

Jay

Jay, it measures .1572”

My caliper is not digital read.

I fixed the link.  The part # is visible, if you want to go to the dealership.

Pep Boys was sort of in jest - but I await seeing an inexpensive chunk of vacuum hose that comes anywhere near the Toyota quality.  This, from a Ford type auto freak.  The Japanese simply raised their quality above ours - hope someday we can catch up!

That said, any old hose will do - the critical components are the motor mount and the gearbox.

Jay - do you still have Si's converted UP "Deck?"

Bob,

Yep, I do.  It's an F-1.  Remotored with a Pittman can motor and rubber tubing (probably Toyota to boot!).  Left the paint 7 everything else alone.

Jay

Chris,

Okay, it's 4mm, the standard USH shafting.  If you have the time, and are so inclined, send me the gearbox, along with the shaft and I'll install ball bearings and make a longer shaft for you.  I'll make it longer than you need and you can cut to length.  I've done it some many times now I can almost do it in my sleep.

Bob will appreciate where I learned to add the ball bearings.  It was our mutual friend, Dennis Mashburn.

Jay

@bob2 posted:

I fixed the link.  The part # is visible, if you want to go to the dealership.

Thanks.

Wow...3 feet. That'll last a while...

Mark in Oregon

Jay, if it were my engine, I’d consider your offer. But that’s not in the program. Thank you.

I’ll go one of two routes: try out the USH coupling. Because I don’t need to alter the existing gearbox shaft. And see how it runs.

And pickup some of the tubing from Bob’s link. (Thanks for fixing that).

One last question. Length of tubing to put on the long shaft is about 1” min?

I appreciate your time for this!

Chris,

First thing I'd do is make sure the two shafts are lined up as perfectly as you can get them.

With the gap being so large I would insert a short piece of rod into the tubing to help close the gap.  Less chance of wrapping.  How much tubing? typically more is better.  Much depends on the size of the shafting and the tubing being used.  You don't want it slipping, or wrapping, under load.  The rod in the middle also makes the tubing a pseudo double universal (the poor man's version, if you will).

Jay

No - it is done by feel.  As Jay says, shafts should be aligned, with space around 1/8" or even less, as close to the motor as possible.  Use K&S tube on the worm shaft or motor shaft as required to ensure a good fit with the tube.  Once in a while I will use contact cement or even a wrapper of safety wire to ensure no slipping between shaft and hose.  Usually not necessary.

Bear with me - I may overload you with photos.  Things to note are "motor mounts", the hidden drive shafts, and in the case of the Mallets, the speedometer cable U joint between engines.  I do not have a shot with the brass tube cradle, but you get the idea - I need the motor as low as possible.  On oil-fired locomotive models, the Pittman simulates the firebox ash pan.

The above is the mechanism for my ten part OSN series.  Motor is an 8324 - resting up there is a 9236.  This is the one with 24:1 front, 25:1 rear gearing.  Works great!

Lost Wax Mikado.  This one is my #786, the Austin Steam Train locomotive.  I should check on their progress.

Another idea for a motor mount.  Note the brass pipe segment adjusting the motor angle.  This one is under an MTH Hudson.  Yes, I did the center driver counterweight.  Yes, those are MTH rods and valve gear.

Log-Mallet.  Only model I ever did with ball bearings on axles.  Don't bother.  This one needs to be tender drive.

Finally, just for grins, the NP Challenger.  Yes, it runs.  Yes, it is noisy.  Yes, it was a fun idea, and patentable.  No, I would not recommend it.  Front driveshaft runs right through the rear, just like a turbojet engine shaft connecting fan with turbine, and compressor running on the outside of that shaft.  I called it "twin spool."  Ball bearings on the rear were expensive - but "comped."

Shoot, I even used larger heavy wall rubber tubing on my conversion of the C&LS diesels.  Gear head motor is a Faulhaber 2842 with 3.7:1 reduction.

Jay

I’ll work on closing the gap. Thanks for the rod tip. I ordered tubing.

Jay you mentioned having couplings. How do I reach you?

This thread is even better than I expected... 👍

Mark in Oregon

Chris,

My contact info should be shown under my profile.

Please note, yes, I have them but I don't want to hinder any sale, or deal, you and Bill worked out.  The last thing I want to do is screw up someone elses endeavors.  Bill is a friend too and I want to keep it that way.

Jay