Learning From Mistakes on the Real Trains Forum

@Number 90 posted:

humbled by cranky old men whomake Hot Water look like a florist ...

Now there's a mental image that's going to be hard to shake

Tom

Well said Tom. I recall being taken to task by my foreman in my early days as an electrician's helper. Tough lessons but valuable just the same.
Payback is a b#@%& though........

Tom,

That's how it was during my career as an aerospace engineer. You refined the design as many times as necessary until it was satisfactory. When I was a youngster, I listened to what those old guys had to say. I ended up being one of them but, by then, none of the young guys listened to me...

MELGAR

Very well said Tom. Whenever there is any discussions on real trains, I know that I am beyond the low scale of novice, beginning, green horn, no horn, or whatever would be considered a new employee. Granted my first couple of replies on any of the topics on the forum I probably stepped in the big pile and tracked that stuff all over the offices and got yelled at. That may be a good metaphor for a lot of things. I do know that I have learned some, and don't speak up often on things that I have hardly any knowledge of.

Also, your point on making sure that(whatever it was) never happen again is a great point and window into what was. Think about when young folks had something happen and laughed it off without knowing how severe things could have been. My father once told me a long time ago when his oldest nephew(my cousin) was very little how he engaged one of the tractors heading down a hill. My father told him not to jump off and instructed him exactly what to do to bring it to a stop. If he would have jumped off, he would have been crushed and I never would have known him. Some if not all of those old railroad men probably had worse stories of men they knew. My old eighth grade teacher had said about being able to tell veteran railroad men by the number of fingers they had, as some were missing digits or whole fingers. I would imagine that if he(my teacher) didn't have first hand knowledge of this, perhaps his father or grandfather may have which is why he told us students that. It always makes me think of how many times we have been able to get up and walk away safely from whatever it was we had been doing that our parents warned us not to do.

I make an effort to use correct terms - but I try not to get terribly uptight when others do not.  I would never post a correction for E-7 or Trainmaster.  I didn't even bother when the poster asked about siderod removal - cannot remember what he called them - very creative, and only the context said he was working on siderods and crankpins.

What really gets me is spelling and grammar - I have to resist the temptation.  I gag when somebody types "wala".  Still, it is on them for not paying attention in fifth grade, and I do not have to read their prose.

What I do rail about is endless repetition of posts with photos in them.  Makes otherwise good threads tedious.  Exclusive to this forum - is it the button, or the mentality?

There are times when inexperience in the railroad industry can be dangerous. And at other times, a bit funny...and expensive.

Years ago I read an account of an engineer who took charge of a multiple unit diesel consist for a second trick (afternoon shift) UPS train. It was just after 2 pm when he began his inspection of the motive power. That inspection revealed that the lead unit was low on oil. He called the yard office on the radio to inform them of this problem.

This railroad had just hired a bunch of new young men to be Trainmasters. Fresh out of college, they thought they knew everything there was to know about railroading. It was one of these young Trainmasters that responded on the radio. He told the engineer that he would have the oil for him at the east end of the yard, and instructed him to pull down to the east end. This was a common practice at this particular yard, so the engineer went ahead and pulled his train down to the east end of the yard and stopped. And waited. And waited.

After waiting for almost 45 minutes with no oil truck in sight, the engineer once again called the yard office on the radio. The same young Trainmaster answered. The engineer asked where was the oil? The Trainmaster replied, "It's right there by the fire plug. I set a quart of oil on the ground for you right there."

Diesel engines in locomotives hold about 350 GALLONS of oil! The lead unit likely needed 25 or 30 GALLONS of oil to bring it up to proper level, not a quart! This train was delayed for almost three hours because the Trainmaster, in his inexperience, had let the diesel service guys go home at 3 pm! They had to be called back - on overtime - to service this locomotive.

With the 3+ hour departure delay at the yard, the crew outlawed before getting to their destination. The railroad had to re-crew the train to get it to the UPS terminal. The railroad had to pay to UPS a penalty charge for being late on arrival; the diesel service crew had accrued several hours of overtime; and the train had to be re-crewed with a second crew to make the final delivery. With all these extra costs, this inexperienced Trainmaster cost the railroad several thousand dollars that day, all because he didn't know how much oil a diesel engine held.

Great post Tom.  One thing I see that is being lost as things become more digital, more automated, and less interactive is a general loss of historical knowledge.  This is true in so many professions, not just railroading.

Next month I will have been a licensed architect for 25 years and like many, I thought I knew a lot when I got out of school.  I learned very quickly on my first job site at age 24 how little I knew when the contractor started asking me questions that I had no good answers for.  To this day, I still say the day I know everything about my trade is the day I walk away from it.  Automation in the profession has made learning harder, not easier as it has given us the ability to do a lot without truly knowing what we are doing.   

We all could benefit from a little humbleness in the fact that learning is a life long ambition and if someone corrects us because we are clearly incorrect, it is not meant to put us down or make us feel stupid.  It is to help us learn and hopefully we then can pass that information to the next generation.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Great post Tom.  One thing I see that is being lost as things become more digital, more automated, and less interactive is a general loss of historical knowledge.  This is true in so many professions, not just railroading.

Next month I will have been a licensed architect for 25 years and like many, I thought I knew a lot when I got out of school.  I learned very quickly on my first job site at age 24 how little I knew when the contractor started asking me questions that I had no good answers for.  To this day, I still say the day I know everything about my trade is the day I walk away from it.

I learned a VERY long time ago, the we go through stages in our working career, and life in general:

1) Stage 1, is when you don't know anything.

2) Stage 2 is when you have learned to the point you think you know everything. Way too many people spend way too long in this stage.

3) Stage 3 is when you have learned so much, you then realize just how little you really know.

  Automation in the profession has made learning harder, not easier as it has given us the ability to do a lot without truly knowing what we are doing.   

We all could benefit from a little humbleness in the fact that learning is a life long ambition and if someone corrects us because we are clearly incorrect, it is not meant to put us down or make us feel stupid.  It is to help us learn and hopefully we then can pass that information to the next generation.

Getting upset over placement of a hyphen is this important?  Or choosing between words like drive and operate?  Or tracks and rails?   

I am impressed for sure.  And you wonder why the hobby is shrinking?

@aussteve posted:

Getting upset over placement of a hyphen is this important?

Yes it is, on the Real Trains Forum.

Or choosing between words like drive and operate?

Again, yes on the Real Trains Forum.

Or tracks and rails?

Not real sure where you are going with THIS.

I am impressed for sure.

That's good.

  And you wonder why the hobby is shrinking?

It is "shrinking" for many other reasons than incorrect nomenclature or lack of using proper railroad terminology.

Thanks Tom & Hot.  In 1969, when I first hired out as a summer Brakeman, steam had only been gone, officially, from the CNW for a dozen years.  The Engineers were a crusty, generally unhelpful and unforgiving bunch who came up during the age of steam under equally crusty mentors.  For the most part, Conductors hung out in the waycar with the Hind Brakeman, did paperwork and slept.

I would be jailed for repeating the phrases used openly to describe us kids.  In retrospect, however, those old heads put up with us only to allow more vacation latitude in the ranks and knew that most of us snot-nosed kids would graduate from college to careers as florists inhabiting cubicles.  I didn't fall into that category and enjoy my Railroad Retirement direct deposits, O Gauge and the O Gauge Railroad Forum, among other things.

Why not require a special password to post in that subject, and a test or resume requirement to get the password?

Then you could get a gold star, an "RT", or some designation to your OGR handle so everyone would know you are licensed to post in the real trains forum.

@aussteve posted:

Getting upset over placement of a hyphen is this important?  Or choosing between words like drive and operate?  Or tracks and rails?   

I am impressed for sure.  And you wonder why the hobby is shrinking?

😳 😦 😖

Buy 'em books, send them to school and what do they do?

@aussteve posted:

Why not require a special password to post in that subject, and a test or resume requirement to get the password?

Then you could get a gold star, an "RT", or some designation to your OGR handle so everyone would know you are licensed to post in the real trains forum.

Since when is knowledge a bad thing?  What is truly disappointing is the anti-intellectual wave that seems to have washed over humanity as a whole.  No one has ever said that one needs to know the subject matter, what was stated that it is good to learn the subject matter from those who do know so that misinformation is not repeated as if it is truth.

However, this is sadly just the world we live in.  Misinformation as truth rules as egos are more important than knowledge.  I have met the OP in person and he is the most generous and friendly person one can run across.  When he posts a topic or to a topic is it to share the immense knowledge he has and I for one, have learned a lot as a result. 

I have also conversed with "Hot Water" on the phone.  Again, a wonderfully genuine and generous person who has imparted knowledge I would have not gained elsewhere.  He has saved my .... "ahem" posterior... more than once on a 3rd Rail research project.  I can't thank him enough for the information he has imparted. 

There is no ticket required to learn something new, just an open mind and the wisdom to know when one doesn't know the answer.

@aussteve posted:

Why not require a special password to post in that subject, and a test or resume requirement to get the password?

Then you could get a gold star, an "RT", or some designation to your OGR handle so everyone would know you are licensed to post in the real trains forum.

Come on Steve....surely you understand that in the Real Trains forum accuracy would certainly be important in a discussion about the prototype.  The Real Trains forum should be taken as an opportunity to learn about the prototype.  While no one is "all knowing", we are fortunate to have members that have the experience and knowledge and are trying to help all of us LEARN.  Yep, some of them have techniques that are sometimes a little on the gruff side and they may have "opinions" but wouldn't you rather know the proper terms, facts, designations, etc. from the real railroading world?  If someone posts something inaccurate or improper by real railroading standards, what is wrong with correcting them?  Yes, I know there are both positive and negative ways of correcting folks but surely by now you are aware of the various personalities on this forum.  Just enjoy and appreciate that we have folks here that can increase our knowledge about not only real trains but the hobby.  I learn something from this place everyday!

@GG1 4877 posted:

Since when is knowledge a bad thing?  What is truly disappointing is the anti-intellectual wave that seems to have washed over humanity as a whole.  No one has ever said that one needs to know the subject matter, what was stated that it is good to learn the subject matter from those who do know so that misinformation is not repeated as if it is truth.

However, this is sadly just the world we live in.  Misinformation as truth rules as egos are more important than knowledge.  I have met the OP in person and he is the most generous and friendly person one can run across.  When he posts a topic or to a topic is it to share the immense knowledge he has and I for one, have learned a lot as a result.

I have also conversed with "Hot Water" on the phone.  Again, a wonderfully genuine and generous person who has imparted knowledge I would have not gained elsewhere.  He has saved my .... "ahem" posterior... more than once on a 3rd Rail research project.  I can't thank him enough for the information he has imparted.

There is no ticket required to learn something new, just an open mind and the wisdom to know when one doesn't know the answer.

Could not have said it better myself!

@Big Jim posted:

😳 😦 😖

Buy 'em books, send them to school and what do they do?

They look for the pictures, draw stuff in the corners, bend the pages, and then you have to pay fees for what they out in the books. Not much else can be said, right?

@Number 90 posted:

... Hot Water and I and the other professional railroaders who post here ...

You are a completely different man than Hot Water. and another vocal "professional railroader" here. Condescension and narcissism rub people the wrong way. Its unfortunate, unnecessary, and creates problems on a friendly forum.

@Number 90 posted:

During most of the 20th century, real railroad knowledge was, more often than not, gained by negative reinforcement from Roundhouse Foremen, Engineers, Conductors, Yardmasters, and Officials.  You did not nurse hurt feelings.  ...

Hot Water and I and the other professional railroaders who post here have all been humbled by gruff old men who make Hot Water look like a florist by comparison.

I'm not as old as others here, but I am in my 60's, and I have been around the block, too. Starting in the Army, and then my entire career in heavy industry. In my experiences anyway, the "gruff old men" are nothing more than horse's rear ends, with a personality defect. A different attitude goes much further in the educating and grooming of men.

@GG1 4877 posted:

... However, this is sadly just the world we live in.  Misinformation as truth rules as egos are more important than knowledge.  I have met the OP in person and he is the most generous and friendly person one can run across.  When he posts a topic or to a topic is it to share the immense knowledge he has and I for one, have learned a lot as a result.

I agree. Both about the scourge of misinformation in our world, and about the OP. Tom stands out in my mind as a valued member of our forum. His posts are informative, pertinent, and completely unbiased. I wish he would share his railroading knowledge and experiences more often.

I also agree with Tom ... that our Real Trains forum should strive for accuracy, and be a place to learn. And, it is. (As is OGR Magazine, that's why I buy it) Terrific. But, also, it should not be a place to launch personally motivated attacks against things.

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

Could not have said it better myself!

And I’d drink to that too,….if you don’t know something, and you ask Jack, he’ll pour his heart & soul into the correct answer,…I’ve asked Jack specific questions all over this site, and always get a truthful, well explained answer,……post something wrong, or falsely wrong, and Jack is gonna correct it,…..that’s how it works,…like it, lump it or leave it,….I’d rather it not be sugar coated, so the knowledge is learned,…

Pat

In my Triple Crown days, I worked at Norfolk Southern's Oakwood yard in Melvindale, MI just outside of Detroit.  I was just getting ready leave after working 3rd trick when we got a call on the radio indicating that the FRA man had ordered our EB CP roadrailer train 528 stopped at Fort Street just outside of the yard.  Within minutes the FRA man walked into our office and wanted to know who was in charge and the clerks pointed to me.  It turns out one of roadrailer trailers was not properly placarded.  Luckily for me the FRA man was friends with our contractor foreman (both had worked together at Conrail).   He let me off with warning but indicated that his next visit will be a very expensive one.

In this case not a costly lesson, but a valuable and humbling experience.

Interesting and relatable topic--thanks for posting.

People getting a hurt posterior over what Jack, Rich, or anyone else says on this forum need to self reflect more. Attaching some inherent motivation or deeper feelings to written word is not rational. Both guys are rather direct, but that doesn't insinuate some harsh personal attack. They've both corrected me and I am happy to learn from them. I have seen neither truly condescend or call others names.  Personally people are rough around the edges for a variety of reasons. Until you've walked in their shoes it's hard to judge. Furthermore writing someone off for such reasons is more a reflection of you than them.

It takes all kinds to make this world turn. I try to learn what I can and further appreciate those that are different.  I may or may not agree but can certainly respect the how's and why's.

I am thankful to be able to learn from them, number 90, and the many other experienced railroad men here.

@Rich Melvin posted:

There are times when inexperience in the railroad industry can be dangerous. And at other times, a bit funny...and expensive.

Years ago I read an account of an engineer who took charge of a multiple unit diesel consist for a second trick (afternoon shift) UPS train. It was just after 2 pm when he began his inspection of the motive power. That inspection revealed that the lead unit was low on oil. He called the yard office on the radio to inform them of this problem.

Questions:  If this engine had this shortage of oil:

1.  If it was coming out of the engine facility, I would think the personal there would have caught it?

2.  If this engine was already on the train, and the train came into the yard from another location, would there be some sort of dial, alarm or shutdown alerting the inbound crew?

There are so many myths out there.  Being an SP fan, there are the SD40-2's and SD45-2's with special cooling packages.  Many people called them "Tunnel Motors".  Did not know about that history until a read a HW post.

Another myth are changes in a production run's body style.  The railfan community called them "phases".  EMD, I believe, never used that term.

@GG1 4877 posted:

We all could benefit from a little humbleness in the fact that learning is a life long ambition and if someone corrects us because we are clearly incorrect, it is not meant to put us down or make us feel stupid.  It is to help us learn and hopefully we then can pass that information to the next generation.

We can all absolutely benefit from humility - on both sides of the equation.  If I'm humble, that helps me learn from my mistakes and the experience of others.  That being said...  I also should be humble in how I deliver "corrections".  Sometimes people *DO* deliver "corrections" in demeaning and insulting ways.  Humiliating someone is never OK.

@Gandalf97 posted:

We can all absolutely benefit from humility - on both sides of the equation.  If I'm humble, that helps me learn from my mistakes and the experience of others.  That being said...  I also should be humble in how I deliver "corrections".  Sometimes people *DO* deliver "corrections" in demeaning and insulting ways.  Humiliating someone is never OK.

Agreed and when that happens I wonder if the person doing the correcting is doing it due to their personality or the because they have had to make that correction many times and they are frustrated? The problem is as more newbies post they make the same mistakes as other people have years earlier. It can be frustrating to the person doing the correcting. The problem is the person that made the newest mistake may have only made one mistake and it isn't right to jump all over them.

I agree accuracy here is very important. I don't post anything here unless I am very sure of what I am saying which of course doesn't guarantee I won't make a mistake. If I do make a mistake I would very much appreciate a polite correction over something demeaning.

Where are all these demeaning and condescending posts people keep referring to? 

Sometimes correction stings, but really again that doesn't make it demeaning. Some of life's best lessons sting.

I still completely agree with the original point of this topic and that is that the Real Trains information needs to be accurate. That's what this forum is for.  I always remember this from a history teacher long ago, facts don't care about your feelings.

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Questions:  If this engine had this shortage of oil:

1.  If it was coming out of the engine facility, I would think the personal there would have caught it?

This was on a through train, not a set of power coming out of the house.

2.  If this engine was already on the train, and the train came into the yard from another location, would there be some sort of dial, alarm or shutdown alerting the inbound crew?

There is an alarm for low oil PRESSURE, but not the oil level. The only way to check the oil level is the old-fashioned way, with the dipstick. Evidently this engine was burning oil, and was a little low when it was originally dispatched on this train. On the previous leg of the run it evidently used enough oil to reach the "LOW" mark on the dipstick. That's when you have to add oil - several GALLONS of oil...not just a quart.

I call them "learning experiences", not "mistakes"

@aussteve posted:

Getting upset over placement of a hyphen is this important?  Or choosing between words like drive and operate?  Or tracks and rails?   

I am impressed for sure.  And you wonder why the hobby is shrinking?

It is not about, "...getting upset over placement of a hyphen..." It is a matter of a specific term being right or wrong.

I am reminded of an old and very funny episode of "Married With Children" where Al Bundy has a medical problem. In a hilarious scene, the doctors misread the instructions. Instead of giving Al a "circular incision" they gave him a "circumcision." I'm sure you will agree those are two very different things, caused by the use of an incorrect term.

If things like this don't concern you;  if you don't care about using the wrong terms when describing something, that's fine. But don't come here and beat up on those of us who try to educate you and the others who come to this forum about the CORRECT terms to use in the railroad industry.

@Lionelski posted:

I call them "learning experiences", not "mistakes"

Well said.  In lieu of failure, I often use the phrase, "opportunity to fail".  I have learned more from failure in this world than I ever have through my successes. 

I remember when as a new hire, the roadmaster came past me and told me in no uncertain terms that we don't work a shovel handle while resting on our knees.

No -I think I shall continue to be appalled and refrain from correcting.  I do note that at least in this rather unusual thread there are no glaring errors, either grammatical or in nomenclature.

But I will be watching for our new phase of forum policing - please educate folks on grammar and spelling while you are at it.

@bob2 posted:

...I do note that at least in this rather unusual thread there are no glaring errors, either grammatical or in nomenclature.

Thats prolly becuz most of us here is reel smart. But u all redy no that, dont you. 

But I will be watching for our new phase of forum policing - please educate folks on grammar and spelling while you are at it.

In all seriousness now, why do some of you get so bent out of shape if someone corrects a grammatical error or a spelling error? Here again, something is either right or it's not. Why do you considered that to be "policing"?

When we publish OGR magazine and the books that we publish, we strive to make sure our publications conform to the Chicago Manual of Style, which is the "Bible" of the publishing industry. We spend a lot of money hiring experts on the manual to proof all of our writing, to be sure it's in compliance. Why do we do that? Because we know that if our publications conform to that standard, we know they are RIGHT and CORRECT. That is important to every publishing professional, and should be important to everyone.

If striving to be correct in the use of railroad terms and grammar is now suddenly wrong, then we are all in big trouble.

@MELGAR posted:

Tom,

That's how it was during my career as an aerospace engineer. You refined the design as many times as necessary until it was satisfactory. When I was a youngster, I listened to what those old guys had to say. I ended up being one of them but, by then, none of the young guys listened to me...

MELGAR

From a sheet hung anonymously on the office door years ago...  I think you hit upon #5, Melgar!

"Great Truths About Growing Old"

1) Growing up is mandatory; growing old is optional.

2) Forget the health food.  I need all the preservatives I can get.

3) When you fall down, look for what else you can do while you're down there.

4)  You're getting old when you get the same sensation from a rocking chair that you once got from a roller coaster.

5) It's frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions anymore.

6) Time may be a great healer, but it's a lousy beautician.

7)  Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.

-----------

Livin' the life...

KD

Rich is correct - want to get published?  Submit to editing.  Want torail against a 16-66 Trainmaster?  Semi-harmless.  At least the first dozen times or so.  But when I see you’re used for your, or listen to TV actors using “I” in place of me, I correct them in my mind, or by shouting at the TV.  Even when teaching, I would let students repeat the term “you know” six times in a sentence without external reaction (screaming inside, of course).

Sure, I am happy to now know there are no hyphens in PRR or EMD designations - useful knowledge, imparted to me in a friendly tone.  But a policy of correcting - not something I can participate in.

I held off a bit here, but happened to think of a perfect, non-railroad example...

Most of us who are local historians are familiar with the “Appalachian history expert” who seldom visits, doesn’t know anyone from the area and has never lived here. Just before lockdown, a traveler aboard an unusual craft asked for contacts about the local river pool. I sent him my bibliography and offered to contact people ahead of time. He said it wouldn’t be necessary because he would be far too busy to talk to anyone here.

When lecture day arrived, we went to hear him. He hadn’t noticed anything. His whole remark on Heritage Port in Wheeling was that it “must have been important” and he wondered what neighborhood had been torn down to build it. A selfie he took there showed the historical society marker and associated displays less than fifty feet from where he tied up ever so briefly. A minute’s glance would have answered his questions. He mentioned wishing he knew more about towboats and such. A half-dozen pilots and deckhands were in the audience, but after the lecture he was “too busy” to talk to them.

I’ve seen the same thing happen dozens of times: someone gets a wrong idea or misses essential detail while ignoring the people who could help. At best it’s annoying, while at worst it can start a chain of error that may persist for years. I also got to talk to Hot Water and was similarly impressed. While it’s true that much of the time what we mean is obvious even though we’re using the wrong word, it’s a poor habit to get into and it’s annoying. For a general audience, it’s often easier to use the common word and remark that there’s a small technical difference, but when it comes to serious history or training, knowing the right word is more important and helps prevent Assuming. (A nearby cemetery has some beautiful early 19th century Masonic tombstones. One budding historian proudly recounted her trip there to see Famous Judge’s grave, remarking that in his youth he must have been a stonemason. Oooooops.)

ORG cannot be accused of WORD CRIMES.  (YT the song.)

@aussteve posted:

Getting upset over placement of a hyphen is this important?  Or choosing between words like drive and operate?  Or tracks and rails?   

I am impressed for sure.  And you wonder why the hobby is shrinking?

So would you feel comfortable calling a Harley Davidson a "Bicycle?" There's nothing technically incorrect about that term as applied to a HD.

Would you call a locomotive throttle an "accelerator? After all, it does the same thing as pressing down on a car's gas pedal. Would you call the Johnson Bar a "gear shift? It pretty much accomplished the same thing as the one in a car.

If you wouldn't call these things by their improper names, why would you think it's now OK to "drive" a steam locomotive?  Would you drive an airplane or a sailboat? Why do you think it's OK to make up names for some locomotive part that you don't know the actual name of?

And here is a catch.  In the US, one operating a train is an ENGINEER.  In the UK, that person is a DRIVER.  One  has to be correct in the country or even railroad one is talking about