Legacy Base won't backup or create new CAB module

Did you swap the test bench Legacy base into the layout?  That will tell you if it's the Legacy base or something else in the environment.  I use the Legacy system on my layout through the WiFi to create modules, it's never been an issue here.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Did you swap the test bench Legacy base into the layout?  That will tell you if it's the Legacy base or something else in the environment.  I use the Legacy system on my layout through the WiFi to create modules, it's never been an issue here.

Yes, I swapped the test bench Legacy base into the layout.  It failed there too.  Something in the layout...

Divide and conquer.  Start by disconnecting stuff.  Pull the LCS stuff except for the WiFi and see if that changes anything.

GRJ-

So I traced down the offending components that I recently added to the LCS string; 2 ASC2's.  Everything was fine until those were encountered.  An interesting item though is that my WiFi unit is not the module in the string.  In fact its about 7th or 8th place.  If the WiFi unit was in the first spot, this wouldn't have even appeared.  So I guess I found an interesting was to test connectivity along the full LCS string (for Legacy Base2+WiFi module) by placing the WiFi module further downstream from the Base2.

I'll give Lionel support a buzz tomorrow to discuss my alternatives.

Thanks for listening as usual!

Tim

@LionelAG posted:

GRJ-

So I traced down the offending components that I recently added to the LCS string; 2 ASC2's.  Everything was fine until those were encountered.  An interesting item though is that my WiFi unit is not the module in the string.  In fact its about 7th or 8th place.  If the WiFi unit was in the first spot, this wouldn't have even appeared.  So I guess I found an interesting was to test connectivity along the full LCS string (for Legacy Base2+WiFi module) by placing the WiFi module further downstream from the Base2.

I'll give Lionel support a buzz tomorrow to discuss my alternatives.

Thanks for listening as usual!

Tim

I seem to recall that the WiFi module should be first in the string, don't recall exactly where that's written...

I always connected the LCS WiFi as the first device in the string but it is not mandatory. In fact the original LCS Sample Diagram, since taken down from the Lionel site, shows it second in the string. The first device in that diagram happens to be a Sensor Track.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I seem to recall that the WiFi module should be first in the string, don't recall exactly where that's written...

GRJ is correct.  Here's a quote out of the WiFi module manual, bottom of Page 4...

"It is recommended that the LCS WiFi module occupy the first connection in the LCS chain of LCS products."

Up until now the "recommended" word seemed a bit optional but in my case ended up being critical.  Shared learnings...

It was a wiring convenience for me not to have WiFi as the #1 module but I can certainly refactor to honor this requirement.

One last interesting note, I have 3 ASC2's earlier in the string before the wifi module that caused no problem and then recently added 2 more ASC2's, again ahead of the wifi module.  Only the 2 new ASC2's caused problems.  Something is different about the newer ASC2 but I'm done studying the differences at this point.

It would be nice to know what's "different," and whether any of our resident electronics wizards can reverse or engineer around those changes, so that they don't cause problems in a chain of LCS devices.

I think the answer is on p15 of the manual. At idle the the WiFi module draws 30ma, but when operating it draws up to 300ma, by far the largest current draw of any LCS device. Installing the WiFi as the first device minimizes the voltage drop along the LCS PDI interconnecting cables. Adding two more ASC-2's with their interconnecting PDI cables between the Base and the WiFi could have caused enough voltage drop to compromise the signal. Voltage drop (and current supply) is why my LCS string of devices needs five powered Joiners to operate reliably.

ASC2's draw 50ma each.

@AmFlyer posted:

I think the answer is on p15 of the manual. At idle the the WiFi module draws 30ma, but when operating it draws up to 300ma, by far the largest current draw of any LCS device. Installing the WiFi as the first device minimizes the voltage drop along the LCS PDI interconnecting cables. Adding two more ASC-2's with their interconnecting PDI cables between the Base and the WiFi could have caused enough voltage drop to compromise the signal. Voltage drop (and current supply) is why my LCS string of devices needs five powered Joiners to operate reliably.

ASC2's draw 50ma each.

As stated, I'm driving my LCS string with 2(two) 2-amp power supplies and my total consumption at the sum of all amperage for my string is just below 2 amps.  Power is NOT is problem in this case.

What my post above says it is possible that the issue with the WiFi device could be caused by excessive voltage drop in the PDI cables. I did not say that inadequate current capabilities of the power supplies was an issue. The LCS devices are designed for 12V, below 10V they can begin to show some intermittent issues. Below 8V they do not function as designed. My WiFi is the first device on the string, connected to the Base 2 with a 10' PDI cable, After 40' of PDI cable the voltage was under 8V with the device load we had on the PDI string. This was as analyzed in early 2016 by the Lionel R&D team with their system development computer program. They sent us three prototype powered Joiners and told us where to install them in the PDI string. The Joiners reset the voltage to 12V at their output and provide an additional 2A capability. We have since added a lot more BPC2's to the LCS system so there are now 5 powered Joiners along the PDI cable string. We only need 4A total current but the voltage drop was enough that it took another Joiner every 40' to keep the voltage above 10V at the input to every device for the system to work reliably. The more LCS devices connected the worse the voltage drop becomes. Just saying it is worth looking at after all the other possibilities are eliminated.

I see your point and it may apply in this case.  I can test that theory as well.

@LionelAG posted:

One last interesting note, I have 3 ASC2's earlier in the string before the wifi module that caused no problem and then recently added 2 more ASC2's, again ahead of the wifi module.  Only the 2 new ASC2's caused problems.  Something is different about the newer ASC2 but I'm done studying the differences at this point.

I'd expect it's just the latency of the additional units in the string rather than a difference.

Finally got WiFi module in position #1 in the LCS string from the Legacy Base.  Guess what, all is well.   Backups and Module creation runs very smoothly.

So, let the rule be after field experience that it is required to have WiFi module in position #1 of the LCS string.  The new Base3 has WiFi built in and schematically is close to the brains of the Base.

I do remember that being stated when LCS was first making the rounds.  I've been wired that way from the start, and no problem with the LCS stuff or the WiFi.