Legacy cost vs benefits

Here's how I view it-spend thousands of dollars on locomotives and only $300 on Legacy system to access all of the functions of them.   HMMM....seems like a no brainer to me...

Dave_C brought his Legacy command base over and a Legacy engine to run on my layout.  Very impressive, the features, the sounds, what you can do with the engine you can't do with just TMCC, the way it runs and controls TMCC engines, etc, etc.

 

With that said, it's been a long time since I've purchased a Lionel engine, no Legacy engines on my layout.  I too have a hard time spending 300 bucks on another operating system with no Legacy engines.  Maybe someday.

My TMCC locomotives are different animal when ran under Legacy-your experience may vary.

If you own legacy engines then I would get the legacy system to take full advantage of the engines you own. If you only own tmcc locs then it's not a big deal. The real advantage you will get is absolute speed steps. Legacy will have a finer speed control over tmcc engines. Tmcc uses relative speed steps which is not as refined as absolute. The other advantage is the screen display. It makes referencing the engines a bit nicer.

I bought the legacy remote years ago way before I owned a legacy engine. I liked the remote better than my tmcc remote. That was my personal preference. You will have to decide if those few features is worth it if you only have tmcc engines.

For me Legacy is amazing sound and extremely smooth slow speed control. If you want to come as close as possible to the sound of a real locomotive, in my opinion, Legacy is a truly magnificent system. I spend a lot of time trackside and the Legacy system sounds very much like a real train to me.

 

My #1 recommendation . . . . . you MUST spend some time with it at a demonstration or at the house of a friend who has the system.

I agree. While I really like my Legacy system I find other people hate it and do not want to use it. You must spend  some time to try it out.

I have a small layout (8'X6') which currently has both MTH DCS and Lionel CAB-1L/Base-1L Command Set (also known as Legacy Lite).  Both systems work perfectly together or separately.  The CAB-L1/Base-L1 has the look and feel of the TMCC Remote but will allow the operator to access many of the Legacy "Bells & Whistles" (pun intended) to be accessed without breaking the bank.  It will even allow you to access the "Quill-able" Horn/Whistle if the locomotive is so equipped.  I have 3 Lionel Legacy engines (a Lionmaster  Pennsy T1 equipped with Legacy and 2 SD80 MAC's with Legacy) and they all work great.  The best part is that you can always sell your CAB-L1/Base-L1 Command Set should you decide to Up-Grade to the 990 Legacy Command Set.  Here's a Linky to the CAB-L1/Base-L1 Command Set.

 

http://www.lionelstore.com/CAB...L-Command-Set-637147

 

Either Way, Have Fun!!

 

Chief Bob (Retired)

 

I agree with 86TA355SSR, Legacy is the ONLY way to go, and DCS can be used at the same time without any trouble or extra wiring needed. I have ABSOLUTELY NO USE for Lion Chief, or Lion Chief +, and there are several Lionel locomotives that I have passed on specifically because Lionel RUINED some perfectly Good, Otherwise Disirable Locomotives with Lion Chief(+).

 

Most Legacy/TMCC are more expensive than a new 990 set, many are MULTIPLE times more expensive than a 990 set, many forum members have many locomotives, then complain about the cost of a Legacy set. IMO most layouts would see a greater benefit from a Legacy system, than they would from ONE more locomotive, but guess where the money often goes.

 

Only have ONE locomotive, running on a simple oval of track? then the Legacy cost/benefit analysis probably wont pencil out for you.

 

Do you have TWO or MORE Legacy/TMCC equipped locomotives and some switches and more track than a simple oval? then a legacy system will probably benefit your layout more than another locomotive will.

 

Just a small to medium size layout? believe it or not, that is where command control really adds to a layout, it allows you to control your trains, in a finer manner than you could ever design a block system to do. A Large layout will also benefit from command control as well, but too many falsely believe that large layouts benefit the most, which just isn't true.

 

Doug

The other benefit of both the Cab1-L and the #990 is that the remote communicates with the base with a Wi-Fi frequency instead of an AM frequency.

OK,so what is the learning curve with legacy?  Watching demonstrations, it is another computer to learn with all of it's idiosyncrasies.  My experience with different computers controlling different industrial applications, is if your not using it all the time you will wind up relearning ,struggling to just get by or finding ways to avoid it altogether.  Those of you that really like legacy how frequently are you using it?

 

 

I think it is important to separate  the Legacy engine comments from the Legacy Control comments.  The Legacy controller does not generate sounds as an example.

 

So back to the owner with NO legacy engines, does the CAB-1L produce better speed control too?  Is it the same as Legacy control for a TMCC engine?  Or is the Legacy controller the only one with absolute speed steps for controlling TMCC engines?

 

I would also make the comment, none of these control systems will do any thing for your LC or LC+ engines.  So only your TMCC engines benefit.  If you find yourself buying LC+ in the future, then the switch to Legacy or even CAB-1L is not making much sense to me.   G

I'm just jumping on to the pile.  I fought, resisted and was intimidated to get a command system.  I've been into this hobby since about 1972.  About a month ago, a friend bought and brought a system over to my layout--which was the start of November.  Yesterday, it was installed on my layout!  The hard part is not learning how to use the system for me.  The hard part was re-doing wiring which was not done according to the recommended standards.  

 

Any model railroader I would give this advice: When you build a layout, research command systems and when you find the one or two you like, research the recommended wiring standards and wire your layout accordingly whether or not you think you will ever buy a command system.  Thus far, it has taken myself and a friend about 20 to 30 hours (layout basement size) to re-do wiring; and my back still hurts!

 

Doing this won't hurt a thing because you can use the same wiring to run conventionally.  In the end, eventually, even if it's 40 years, when you get one, the system will work without having to undo wiring already done.

 

I needed a friend to do what he did.  He didn't nudge me.  He shoved me over the edge! I will say what I've heard 100s of others say: "I wish that I would have done it long ago!"  We ran multiple trains all over the place yesterday and never once touched a block switch! 

The good part with Legacy vs. DCS is the wiring issues are significantly less restrictive.  I've taken my Legacy system to several conventional only clubs for a demo and just connected it to the track, cranked the transformer up, and started running trains.

John C, it sounds to me like the system that you installed was MTH's DCS, which is very particular about using the Star Pattern" method of wiring. That is one of the biggest weaknesses of DCS compared to Legacy/TMCC.

 

 Wiring a Legacy/TMCC layout is MUCH simpler, than a DCS layout. With Legacy/TMCC just ONE wire to the outside rails and you are done. With Legacy/TMCC a conventionally block wired layout you just hook up the ground wire and set all the toggles one way with the power turned up and run. Conventional locomotives can still be run, just by taking the block toggle for the blocks they are in and setting them to the transformer that is not being used to power the command locomotives.

 

 With DCS, the wiring style is more important, and complicated, each Track Interface Unit(TIU) has 4 channels, 2 Variable Voltage, and 2 Fixed Voltage. While you don't need to use as many power districts with Command Control, with DCS, each power district needs it's own channel, so multiple TIU's may be needed on larger, or more complicated layouts.

 

As Gunrunnerjohn posted while I was writing this, Legacy/TMCC is very transportable compared to DCS. Also unfortunate is that each manufacturer has produced models that the other hasn't, so picking just ONE system is very likely to leave a modeler unable to run a desired locomotive. With DCS, a modeler can connect a TMCC base to their DCS system and operate Legacy/TMCC locomotives, BUT, only at the TMCC level without the improved speed control and many other Legacy features.

 

 Fortunately, the systems are compatible, even if not inter-operable, and both systems can be be in use simultaneously without interfering with each other. It is unfortunate that the command control systems in O Gauge are proprietary, and not inter-compatible like DCC is in other scales, but it is, what it is, and is still a HUGE improvement over block wiring.

 

Doug

This is not a comparison of Legacy and DCS systems.  He has TMCC, He is asking what improvements does he get with Legacy Versus TMCC if he only has TMCC and LC/LC+ engines.

 

G

I've owned a Legacy base for over 3 years now, and still haven't used it. I just don't care about the smoke and sound on my trains. Gunrunnerjohn once called it a "$300 door stop" because I wasn't using it.

 

I tried hooking it up a couple of times, and all my trains took off at full speed, as if there were no command signal. I do need to get to the bottom of that problem, but it's just not a priority. I'm also not fond of the cab-2, I find it clunky and annoying as well as expensive. I have nine cab-1's which I picked up rather cheaply. They will be what gets used when I host operating sessions, in the not too distant future.

 

Looking back, the only reason I bought it was I have the Milwaukee Road S-3 and thought it would be nice to use it for show (not for regular running). As I said, I'm in no hurry to use it, since the S-3 has never been out of the box.

I think the Legacy cost vs benefits question is a more personal decision. Something each individual should study carefully and make up their own minds about. What one person likes is not always what you will like, this works both ways too. Many folks here are perfectly happy with conventional only operation, some like Lion Chief and are happy with that, others want TMCC and/or Legacy and will settle for nothing less. You may be much happier if you purchase a Legacy system because you really want one rather than because someone else likes and recommends the system?

 

For me it was DCS and Legacy along with all the modern, more detailed, electronic train items that really tipped the scales and got me back in the hobby a few years ago. I like the electronics and controls as much (maybe more) than running the trains themselves. I had absolutely no doubts about wanting both DCS and Legacy systems from the start (maybe that should be re-start?). I knew what I wanted for controls, now all I had to do was go out and find some trains to go with the control systems.

LNE fan,

    Recently I added Legacy to my DCS layout and I now wish I would have done it sooner.  I also purchased a few new Legacy engines also.  It's not so much the cost with me, it was the fact that many of the guys were having problems with it, that made me wait.  Pretty much all the bugs have been eliminated now and Lionel still had to rework my 990 for proper shut off/start up.  Now that I have both the DCS & Legacy I would never get rid of either.  IMO you should save your money and invest in the Legacy along with the DCS, as far as I am concerned it's the ultimate way to run your layout. 

PCRR/Dave

I have been there with TMCC, Legacy Cab 2, and now Cab 1L,  I was thrilled with TMCC when I first received it, then I bought my first Legacy engine and figured why not the Cab2. I purchased that and it was all and more than I expected, I was able to use the Cab1 TMCC along with the Cab 2 Legacy. I was quite happy with this til I had several returns of the 990 to Lionel for repairs. The 990 is now gone as is the TMCC, I now operate with Cab 1L, which will not work together with TMCC as the Cab2 will, and it is fine. I own five of the Legacy engines plus a number of engines that I have converted to TMCC. If I could go back I would have stayed with the TMCC until it failed or wore out. Much of this is personal preference, you just need to sit back and think it out for yourself. I like the simplicity of the TMCC and the Cab 1L, the Cab 2 just had more than I would ever use.

Ray

Hello I have a question

 

I have two Lionel Legacy Mohawks and I run them with my early TMCC thru the DCS system. I think they sound good and run good, what will I gain by going the Legacy control system.

 

Clem  

 

 

access to all  the legacy features.

 

legacy

if you are wanting to run your lion chief or lion chief plus with legacy it will not work.

 

This is a little misleading, the Legacy system will not control the Lion Chief or LC+ locomotives, but the power source will power either, and LC/LC+ locomotives only need to be controlled by their own remote to operate on a Legacy equipped layout. They can be run side by side on the same layout, just not controlled by the other system, but can be mixed without any trouble.

 

Doug

OK so what am I missing?  I have exhaust sound and smoke,whistle and a bell. Direction and speed control.  

the power source has nothing to do with legacy system and the lion chief. the question was not if the layout had a legacy system or not. 

you do not have 200 speed steps, you do not have quilling whistle and I do not believe you can access crew talk.

You also can't access the Legacy lighting features other than basic lighting. 

Just to clear things up.  I have and like TMCC as well as LC, and LC plus.  I well understand the ability of the lack of interoperability of the two control systems. I along with my grandkids enjoy them both.  It is really the cost of legacy for the gains in operation of my  TMCC engines.  If I do get a legacy control I will at some time in the future get legacy locomotives, just not now.  I am not interested in DCS. I appreciate all of your responses. 

My experience when using Legacy.  I had TMCC for a while, but was never impressed with it.  Could be because my locomotives were old K-Line ones without cruse.  Sure, it was neat to have two on the loop and to control them independently, but I was enjoying conventional better so the base and Cab-1 pretty much stayed in a box.  When I ordered my first Legacy locomotive, it had some features that you could only get with the Cab-2, so I went ahead and bought the #990 set.  It came before the locomotive did so I tried it with my TMCC locomotives hearing about how wonderful it would be.  Well, for me it seemed worse.  I really didn't notice any better running, so I was disappointed and boxed it back up.  After my Legacy locomotive came, I hook the 990 back up and was blown away by how much nicer it ran over my TMCC locomotives.  Then it came to me wanting to run more than one locomotive with my son, so I brought out my TMCC base and Cab-1, used the interconnect cable and used the Cab-1 for the TMCC locomotives.  Now I noticed a huge difference it controlling them.  I don't know why, but my TMCC locomotives run their best when using the Cab-1 remote with the TMCC base connected to the Legacy base.  And now that I have a couple more Legacy locomotives, it was worth the price to me.

Am I alone or am I simply missing what is going on here? After Legacy being out for so many years, I can still understand someone having TMCC or DCS asking what is it that Legacy provides? It is clear from the first post in this thread that the poster is asking what Legacy provides and if it is worth the cost. The answers are also very clear, yet the thread goes on, and on, and on, and on, ad infinitum. I really have to stop reading these because it makes me crazier than I already am. The entire point is, if you really want to know, stop asking the same questions over and over and go see it and hear it. Then decide for yourself. Some like it, some love it, some don't. GO see and hear for yourself.

There are lots of ways to do that. 

 

Go to a live Legacy demonstration, go to a friend's house, go to a hobby shop, go to a train show, go to York, go to Springfield Big E, go to Youtube. The point is you have to hear it and see it. What's the difference if Scrapiron Scher says you have improved sound and control? Five milliseconds later someone posts and asks: But what improvement does Legacy provide?

 

So someone responds, "Well, you have improved sound and control . . . . "

 

And then five milliseconds later, "But is it really worth the improved cost?"

 

And then, "Well you have better sound and control . . . . "

 

Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, for Heaven's sakes just go see it and let's have done with it.

 

I'm sure someone is going to respond to this, but Scrappy what if he lives by himself in the foothills of Death Valley, is it worth the extra cost then?

 

Susquehanna Hat Company

Slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch . . . . . 

"Do you know where bagel street is?

"Ohhhhhhhhhh, My husband's dead. He's dead !!!"

 

 

 

sinclair,

    You're assessment of TMCC & Legacy joined is right on the money, now go a step further and join the TMCC/Legacy with the DCS and really open some more doors for your layout. Both my DCS & Legacy work better together than as separate units,  they seem to enhance each others abilities.  I should have added Legacy to my DCS layout when I had the complete game room/office 5 level layout up, I missed the boat on being able to run both, having both control systems with control abilities is just fantastic.  The TMCC/Legacy opened the door to FasTrack wireless low voltage Command Control Switches, operating from track power (99 in number), this along with some other cool operating options like remote control couplers makes the Legacy more than worth the cost.  I could kick myself for not purchasing one sooner, the combination of both DCS & Legacy IMO is the very best way to operate a layout, especially a fair sized layout.

PCRR/Dave

The major cost is not the Legacy controller, it is the premium price of Legacy engines compared to used TMCC or PS2, or new PS3 engines.  Used Legacy engines are on the secondary market, but they tend to hold their value for now.

 

Having said that, the Legacy sound and features IMHO are superior to the others.  I run a mix of PS2/TMCC/Legacy.   I'll pay Legacy prices for a limited number of "gotta have it" engines.

 

I briefly owned a Cab1-L remote, but sold it and bought the Legacy remote as it is much easier to use and gives many more control options.

Bob

RRDOC,

  Bob I have to admit the Legacy engines are not inexpensive stuff, I did break down and purchase a Legacy Shay and a Legacy NP GP9 in the original Pittsburgh Steelers colors.

Never owned any TMCC engines of my own, however they do run incredibly well under Legacy control on my Christmas layouts.  I will probably pick up more Legacy engines as time goes on, I do hope they come down in price also.

PCRR/Dave

I love my Legacy steamers, I just wish Lionel made more O36 ones.  All the really nice ones are O54 and larger.  I still need to get the 4-4-2 ATSF, but I have most of the other small locomotives.

 

As for DCS, I might get it someday, but as of right now I don't own any PS2/3 locomotives, only PS-1 which I can run very nicely with the Cab-1 and my ZW-C.

Sinclair,

The latest PRR 0-6-0 is a real stunner in Legacy.

The PRR atlantic is great as well.

We also have one of the 10 wheelers (4-6-0) and they are all 036 compatible.

 

 

graz, I have all three of those, as well as the Legacy LionMaster T1-Duplex, all of these run on smaller curves.  The PRR Lindbergh Atlantic and the T1-Duplex both have whistle steam as well.

 

I've got the 0-6-0, but the one that wasn't PRR to mix things up.  If the tether would just stay connected and not bind pulling the tender off the track on my O36 crossovers I'd love it even more than I do.  I also have the SP 10 wheeler under my layout for my next birthday gift (Wife claims she doesn't know what to get me so I buy items and she gives them to me.).  Christmas will be a Mikado.  I think the 4-4-2 and 0-8-0 are the only scale Legacy steamers that run on O36 that I don't have.

 

clem K,

    You asked what you would gain by purchasing the Legacy 990 when you already own the TMCC & DCS.  You could sell your TMCC it would no longer be needed, and you would acquire the ability to use all the Legacy control options on your TMCC engines and if you invest in the new Legacy Engines most everything is available thru the DCS controls also. You will love the big Cab2 Legacy Hand Held Remote Control, and the ease of controlling FasTrack Command Control switches from it, along with opening up all the Legacy slow speed and lighting control options, available on your TMCC engines.  Both guys who brought their TMCC engines to my Legacy/DCS layout last Christmas were amazed at the TMCC engines slow speed control & lighting control with Legacy, got to admit I may pick up a couple TMCC engines, if I can find them at a really reasonable prices after Christmas, got to admit with Legacy Control they are more impressive engines.  To me however the big advantage is in controlling the incredible Legacy Engines & FTCC Switches from the Cab2, got to admit the MTH engineers need to upgrade their switches, to low voltage wireless remote control, IMO the wired AIU switch control is a thing of the past.  These are just some of the advantages of purchasing Legacy for your DCS layout, I made the investment myself this past year, and I should have done it earlier, nothing beats a DCS/Legacy controlled layout.

PCRR/Dave