Legacy engines

Yes they can.  Not all but some.  Barry's book covers this.  You have to put a choke in all the Legacy engines.  Something I'm not willing to do.

Thanks Marty,

Dont feel you should have to either, should not have to decide which brand to run beacause one affects the other. Thanks again that answers my question.

MartyE posted:

Yes they can.  Not all but some.  Barry's book covers this.  You have to put a choke in all the Legacy engines.  Something I'm not willing to do.

MartyE, 

In your response you refer to putting a "choke in all the Legacy engines". Please explain what is the choke you are referring to?? Thank you.

W&W posted:

MartyE posted:

Yes they can.  Not all but some.  Barry's book covers this.  You have to put a choke in all the Legacy engines.  Something I'm not willing to do.

MartyE, 

In your response you refer to putting a "choke in all the Legacy engines". Please explain what is the choke you are referring to?? Thank you.

Choke or it's other name is inductor.  30 uH if I recall correctly.  When ever I do maintenance on a tmcc engine I install Them between the pickup rollers to the tmcc electronics.

It's a 22uh choke and not all engines need it, I don't believe. I have not had any problems with Legacy engines (new in the last 4 years or so) and I have both DCS and Legacy on my layout. My MTH engines are all PS3. I have not yet had to install any of the chokes. I don't have any TMCC engines. Barry, GRJ and others are much more knowledgeable on this than I am, maybe they will provide more info. It is covered in Barry's book as MartyE says, but it's been a while since I read it.

From page 157 of The DCS Companion 3rd Edition:

Some, but not all, TMCC engines will degrade the DCS signal of any DCS engine with which they are in close proximity. This effect varies both by individual TMCC engine and by the distance between the TMCC and DCS engines. In many cases, an RF choke inserted in the Hot wire between the pickup rollers and the TMCC engine's circuit board will correct this problem. 

Some lighted cabooses, most notably those manufactured by Atlas O, may degrade the DCS signal, as may some engines or passenger cars with constant voltage (CV) lighting boards. Again, an RF choke inserted in the Hot wire between the pickup rollers and the circuit board in these cars will generally correct this problem. Although a number of different RF chokes may be effective in reducing interference from CV boards, one that has an electrical value of 22uh (micro henries) is known to work well.

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

Barry Broskowitz posted:

From page 157 of The DCS Companion 3rd Edition:

Some, but not all, TMCC engines will degrade the DCS signal of any DCS engine with which they are in close proximity. This effect varies both by individual TMCC engine and by the distance between the TMCC and DCS engines. In many cases, an RF choke inserted in the Hot wire between the pickup rollers and the TMCC engine's circuit board will correct this problem. 

Some lighted cabooses, most notably those manufactured by Atlas O, may degrade the DCS signal, as may some engines or passenger cars with constant voltage (CV) lighting boards. Again, an RF choke inserted in the Hot wire between the pickup rollers and the circuit board in these cars will generally correct this problem. Although a number of different RF chokes may be effective in reducing interference from CV boards, one that has an electrical value of 22uh (micro henries) is known to work well.

---

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

Thank you Barry, 

I will add that my LED Lighting Regulator and of course the full lighting kit that uses the regulator have the 22uh choke for full DCS compatibility.  If you decide to install the choke in the locomotive, the AIAP-03-220K is a suitable product.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I will add that my LED Lighting Regulator and of course the full lighting kit that uses the regulator have the 22uh choke for full DCS compatibility.  If you decide to install the choke in the locomotive, the AIAP-03-220K is a suitable product.

Thanks for the info John, but dont think I want to go modifying the Legacy engines. Will get rid of the problem system first.  Thanks again, 

TJ Wallace posted:

Thanks Marty,

Dont feel you should have to either, should not have to decide which brand to run beacause one affects the other. Thanks again that answers my question.

Yes ultimately.  I run both and haven't come across this issue but I will not modify and engine to make DCS or Legacy happy.  I'll likely keep them discrete before I do that.

Will get rid of the problem system first.

Just be aware that the "problem" is only present when an offending Legacy (or TMCC) engine is on the track.  

Barry Broskowitz posted:

 

Just be aware that the "problem" is only present when an offending Legacy (or TMCC) engine is on the track.  

One would hope that would be obvious!

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Will get rid of the problem system first.

Just be aware that the "problem" is only present when an offending Legacy (or TMCC) engine is on the track.  

Thanks Barry,  

OK  here is what I have found with my signal problems. Removed all engines and anything with a light in it, caboose's , end of train lights, pass. cars, etc. from tracks. Put one MTH engine on the layout, it works but not well, tried another, same thing. Traced this to bad channel signal on ( fixed 1 ) moved output to ( fixed 2 ) tested several MTH engines everything working, TIU and WIFI finding and adding engines to WIFI. Next put a Lionel Legacy SD70  on the track with the MTH engines, right back to the same old trouble, MTH remote seems to be working OK but no wifi, remove Lionel from track everything good again. As Barry mentioned a tmcc signal can cause these problems ???  Tried several more Lionel engines with mixed results, I guess if I want to run both manufacturers together I will just have to forget the MTH wifi and run with the hand held. I DO NOT want to start altering the Lionel engines just so they will work with the MTH wifi. One further observation with both Lionel and MTH engines on the track the MTH remote will flash " engine not on track " but will find the engine and it will run ?? Also I am running Legacy on it's own system with it's own remote and wifi. Never had any trouble at all with Lionel wifi no matter what is on the track.  I have ordered another TIU for a spare so I can keep these things running in case the grandkids stop by.  I assume if you run all MTH alone with the right lighted cars the system will work, who knows, very frustrating  ??

Thanks again everyone for your interest and your help, TJ

Did all this work before and the problem just started when you added the MTH wifi unit?  

rtr12 posted:

Did all this work before and the problem just started when you added the MTH wifi unit?  

Hi, No I have been having trouble for a while, I did not know that a TMCC signal or even some lighted cars can mess with the DCS signal. I never heard or read about this issue. There is a reference in Barry's book that states this, I did not see it, would have saved me one hell of a lot of aggrivation if I had. It just never occured to me that the two manufacturers did not play well together. The TIU signal problem was just a additional problem to screw with me. Hope maybe this will help you out as well.

Thanks, 

Thanks. I am not having problems, I was just curious and trying to learn more. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to offer any other suggestions for you here. I have the DCS wifi, DCS and Legacy, but it's all new in the last 5-6 years. No TMCC engines and I don't have the Lionel wifi or any other Legacy add-ons. I have not really used the wifi a lot, just set it up and got it going and then I fiddle with it a little every now and then. I am waiting for the advanced app and I actually still prefer the remote so far. Good luck, I hope you get things going again. Maybe the more knowledgeable folks will have more suggestions for you.

Forum member GGG repairs TIU's and has a very good reputation around here. I would contact him and and ask him if you want to get yours repaired. He has good turnaround times too. His email is in his profile. 

rtr12 posted:

Thanks. I am not having problems, I was just curious and trying to learn more. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to offer any other suggestions for you here. I have the DCS wifi, DCS and Legacy, but it's all new in the last 5-6 years. No TMCC engines and I don't have the Lionel wifi or any other Legacy add-ons. I have not really used the wifi a lot, just set it up and got it going and then I fiddle with it a little every now and then. I am waiting for the advanced app and I actually still prefer the remote so far. Good luck, I hope you get things going again. Maybe the more knowledgeable folks will have more suggestions for you.

Forum member GGG repairs TIU's and has a very good reputation around here. I would contact him and and ask him if you want to get yours repaired. He has good turnaround times too. His email is in his profile. 

Thanks, I am up and running just no MTH wifi, 

TJ Wallace,

   Yes the Legacy signal can interfere with some P2 signals, and the interference can be increased by my Hunter over head Fan/lighting.  My P2 Pittsburgh Street Car looses DCS signal when my Legacy Engines, are run over top of it, on the 2nd or 3rd levels, of my Christmas layout, when my Hunter Fan/Light is running.  If I shut the Hunter fan/light off  it happens very seldom.   I have no idea why this actually happens, but it does, maybe Marty F can give us some engineering reason for this happening.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

TJ Wallace,

   Yes the Legacy signal can interfere with some P2 signals, and the interference can be increased by my Hunter over head Fan/lighting.  My P2 Pittsburgh Street Car looses DCS signal when my Legacy Engines, are run over top of it, on the 2nd or 3rd levels, of my Christmas layout, when my Hunter Fan/Light is running.  If I shut the Hunter fan/light off  it happens very seldom.   I have no idea why this actually happens, but it does, maybe Marty F can give us some engineering reason for this happening.

PCRR/Dave

 

Crazy stuff with this system. 

TJ,

if I want to run both manufacturers together I will just have to forget the MTH wifi and run with the hand held. 

Just to be clear, the TMCC/Legacy interference will not just be while using the WiFi app. Rather, it will affect operations using both the WiFi app and also the DCS Remote.

If your issue goes away when using the WiFi app yet is occurring under the exact same conditions with the DCS Remote, then your problem is due to something other than interference from your TMCC or Legacy engines.

So I'm curious, which product came out first, Lionel Legacy or MTH's DCS?

Barry Broskowitz posted:

TJ,

if I want to run both manufacturers together I will just have to forget the MTH wifi and run with the hand held. 

Just to be clear, the TMCC/Legacy interference will not just be while using the WiFi app. Rather, it will affect operations using both the WiFi app and also the DCS Remote.

If your issue goes away when using the WiFi app yet is occurring under the exact same conditions with the DCS Remote, then your problem is due to something other than interference from your TMCC or Legacy engines.

Hi Barry, Thanks for the help, it is just the opposite of what you said. I can get things going with the remote and NOT the wifi on either android or Apple. I have always thought the wifi should mirror the remote and again it seems to when only MTH products are on the track. Thanks again,

TJ,

I can get things going with the remote and NOT the wifi on either android or Apple

Then the issue is most definitely not interference from TMCC/Legacy engines.

Depending upon how you've configured your smart phones and tablets, the  iTunes Store will automatically update the iOS version of the DCS App to the newest release of the app and I expect that Google Play will do the same for the Android version. However, you may need to update the WIU yourself unless you're sure that it came with 1.1 firmware.

Has your DCS App ever worked properly? If it has, the problem may be somewhere else in your wifi setup.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

TJ,

I can get things going with the remote and NOT the wifi on either android or Apple

Then the issue is most definitely not interference from TMCC/Legacy engines.

Depending upon how you've configured your smart phones and tablets, the  iTunes Store will automatically update the iOS version of the DCS App to the newest release of the app and I expect that Google Play will do the same for the Android version. However, you may need to update the WIU yourself unless you're sure that it came with 1.1 firmware.

Has your DCS App ever worked properly? If it has, the problem may be somewhere else in your wifi setup.

Hi Barry,  I sent all components out and had them  re- checked by a MTH service tech to be sure everything is up to date. I have no other wifi in the the house just the MTH module and the Lionel module. I bought the enhanced version of the app in the beginning about 10 months ago, I have never seen any updates on the I tunes store for this other than the original download. I have checked numerous times to see if maybe there was. As far as " has it ever worked properly "  I would say it has been intermittent at times but for the most part yes, I have never been able to get more than 4 active engines on the wifi app. As far you saying it is not the Legacy engines, I dont understand that because if I remove them from the layout or run the MTH engines on a separate programming track they do work ?

Thanks again, 

TJ,

As far you saying it is not the Legacy engines, I dont understand that because if I remove them from the layout or run the MTH engines on a separate programming track they do work ?

If it was the Legacy engines, it would also affect the use of the DCS Remote, which you say it does not:

"I can get things going with the remote and NOT the wifi on either android or Apple"

Your statement:

"I would say it has been intermittent at times but for the most part yes, I have never been able to get more than 4 active engines on the wifi app"

...leads me to believe that you've had issues in the past due, perhaps, to inherent WiFi configuration.

I bought the enhanced version of the app in the beginning about 10 months ago, I have never seen any updates on the I tunes store for this other than the original download.

If you have iTunes on your iOS Devices set up to auto-update, the app would be automatically updated whenever a \new version is released by MTH. You wouldn't see this unless you looked at the list of updates in your App Store app on your iOS device.

Regardless, you can easily find out the version of your DCS App by doing the following:

• Open the app on your iOS device
• Tap Run My Trains
• Tap the more... button at the bottom right of the screen
• Tap Settings
• Scroll down to Version to see the version of the app.

f your app is 1.20, you're up-to-date and you must be using a WIU with firmware 1.1.

If your app is older, you should update it to version 1.2 and also update your WIU firmware to version 1.1.

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

Barry Broskowitz posted:

TJ,

As far you saying it is not the Legacy engines, I dont understand that because if I remove them from the layout or run the MTH engines on a separate programming track they do work ?

If it was the Legacy engines, it would also affect the use of the DCS Remote, which you say it does not:

"I can get things going with the remote and NOT the wifi on either android or Apple"

Your statement:

"I would say it has been intermittent at times but for the most part yes, I have never been able to get more than 4 active engines on the wifi app"

...leads me to believe that you've had issues in the past due, perhaps, to inherent WiFi configuration.

I bought the enhanced version of the app in the beginning about 10 months ago, I have never seen any updates on the I tunes store for this other than the original download.

If you have iTunes on your iOS Devices set up to auto-update, the app would be automatically updated whenever a \new version is released by MTH. You wouldn't see this unless you looked at the list of updates in your App Store app on your iOS device.

Regardless, you can easily find out the version of your DCS App by doing the following:

• Open the app on your iOS device
• Tap Run My Trains
• Tap the more... button at the bottom right of the screen
• Tap Settings
• Scroll down to Version to see the version of the app.

f your app is 1.20, you're up-to-date and you must be using a WIU with firmware 1.1.

If your app is older, you should update it to version 1.2 and also update your WIU firmware to version 1.1.

---

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

Thanks Barry, I will look at it, I did however  just send out  all 3 compnents ( tiu-handheld remote and wiu ) to be checked to be sure everthing is up to date and functioning properly so I would have a solid starting point to track down my trouble.

Many thanks, TJ

TJ Wallace posted:

Barry Broskowitz posted:

TJ,

As far you saying it is not the Legacy engines, I dont understand that because if I remove them from the layout or run the MTH engines on a separate programming track they do work ?

If it was the Legacy engines, it would also affect the use of the DCS Remote, which you say it does not:

"I can get things going with the remote and NOT the wifi on either android or Apple"

Your statement:

"I would say it has been intermittent at times but for the most part yes, I have never been able to get more than 4 active engines on the wifi app"

...leads me to believe that you've had issues in the past due, perhaps, to inherent WiFi configuration.

I bought the enhanced version of the app in the beginning about 10 months ago, I have never seen any updates on the I tunes store for this other than the original download.

If you have iTunes on your iOS Devices set up to auto-update, the app would be automatically updated whenever a \new version is released by MTH. You wouldn't see this unless you looked at the list of updates in your App Store app on your iOS device.

Regardless, you can easily find out the version of your DCS App by doing the following:

• Open the app on your iOS device
• Tap Run My Trains
• Tap the more... button at the bottom right of the screen
• Tap Settings
• Scroll down to Version to see the version of the app.

f your app is 1.20, you're up-to-date and you must be using a WIU with firmware 1.1.

If your app is older, you should update it to version 1.2 and also update your WIU firmware to version 1.1.

---

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

Thanks Barry, I will look at it, I did however  just send out  all 3 compnents ( tiu-handheld remote and wiu ) to be checked to be sure everthing is up to date and functioning properly so I would have a solid starting point to track down my trouble.

Many thanks, TJ

Barry,  It is version  1.20   and wiu is 1.1

Thanks,

Tj,

 It is version 1.20 and wiu is 1.1

Good! Now a few questions:

• How many TIUs do you have and is each TIU connected to its own WIU?
• Are you connecting your devices to the WIUs in HOME or MTH mode?
• How is your WIU connected to the TIU, via a USB cable or a Serial to USB cable?
• If you have several DCS engines on powered tracks, what happens when you refresh the app while on the engine roster screen?

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Tj,

 It is version 1.20 and wiu is 1.1

Good! Now a few questions:

• How many TIUs do you have and is each TIU connected to its own WIU?
• Are you connecting your devices to the WIUs in HOME or MTH mode?
• How is your WIU connected to the TIU, via a USB cable or a Serial to USB cable?
• If you have several DCS engines on powered tracks, what happens when you refresh the app while on the engine roster screen?

Hi Barry, in answer to these questions : 1 tiu - 1 wiu , I have no other wifi in the house connected to MTH mode,  connected serial to usb, I bought the suggested cable and have also tried a much more expensive one thinking it could be the cable,  when refreshing the app it does read and finds 2 of 4 MTH engines on the track and will operate those two, the handheld finds all 4. I have ordered another TIU with the usb port which I think will be a more positive connection and it will give me a spare in the event I send this one out for repair. Sorry for taking all your time. 

Thanks Barry, 

TJ,

the handheld finds all 4.

Do a READ command (button #9) from the DCS remote with all four engines powered up and see if the 2 engines that aren't found by the DCS App, wind up in the remote's Inactive Engine List.

If they do, the problem isn't the WIU at all.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

TJ,

the handheld finds all 4.

Do a READ command (button #9) from the DCS remote with all four engines powered up and see if the 2 engines that aren't found by the DCS App, wind up in the remote's Inactive Engine List.

If they do, the problem isn't the WIU at all.

OK Barry,  I did not touch or move anything since our last messages, went to try your latest request, I could not even get the same 4 engines running again one engine reads " engine not on track " just running in the same place one hour prior. I finally got 3 running with both the remote and the wifi recognizing all 3 . Hit the read button , 1 of the 3 engines goes inactive on the remote but the wifi continues to see it and run it. I can not get that engine back ( engine not on track ) to active list on the remote no matter what I tried, powered everthing down and back up, would not move to active list, finally removed battery in the remote and it came back to active list.  (wifi continues to run engine in question ) I am just going to have to wait for another TIU and go from there. Everytime I power up it is a different issue, I just cant waste anymore time on this thing.

Barry, Thank you

Barry,  I checked out TJ set up and made sure he had the latest updates, which he did. One issue was the USB Power connection was not fully soldered in place and it had intermittent power issues.  I resolved that problem.  I did not have the capability to fully test the Wifi operationally.

But, can part of this issue be that the remote and Wifi are being used at the same time? 

TJ,  Which cable are you using to connect your WIFI to the TIU?  You provided me a USB to Serial Adapter cable, but you have a rev L TIU.  Are you using a USB to USB cable or the USB to Serial adapter?

Also, With your 4 MTH Engines on the track and no legacy engines, do a Track signal test with remote with each engine.  Are you getting 10s or is the signal degraded and down low 6 or below.  Any specific engine a problem?  G

George,

But, can part of this issue be that the remote and Wifi are being used at the same time?

No, I don't believe so. I do that all the time. It seems to me that there's some other systemic problem.

You've checked out his equipment (TIU, remote and WIU) and found them OK; the issues happen both with the remote and the DCS App; and the engine's that are affected are not always the same. This would seem to indicate that the problem is in the layout's wiring or track topology or, less likely, in the power source.

A more detailed description of the layout's operational history would be helpful.

GGG posted:

Barry,  I checked out TJ set up and made sure he had the latest updates, which he did. One issue was the USB Power connection was not fully soldered in place and it had intermittent power issues.  I resolved that problem.  I did not have the capability to fully test the Wifi operationally.

But, can part of this issue be that the remote and Wifi are being used at the same time? 

TJ,  Which cable are you using to connect your WIFI to the TIU?  You provided me a USB to Serial Adapter cable, but you have a rev L TIU.  Are you using a USB to USB cable or the USB to Serial adapter?

Also, With your 4 MTH Engines on the track and no legacy engines, do a Track signal test with remote with each engine.  Are you getting 10s or is the signal degraded and down low 6 or below.  Any specific engine a problem?  G

Hi George. The wifi unit seems to working much better since you fixed it. The cable I use now is serial to usb, I have oedered another TIU that is usb to usb, at this point I would settle on just  the remote working. I will do another track signal test when I get a chance, I have in the past had all 8-10. I have also tried different power supplies, Powerhouse 180 and MTH Z 4000.  It is in the end just a confounded toy that sometimes works.

I would again like to thank you, Barry, Marty F. and others who work tirelessly to help me  and many others with the intricacies of this system.

Thanks Guys,

I thought your TIU was an L,  It had the USB port and serial port.  Which is why I found it strange you sent the serial to USB cable.  I had to remove nuts off TIU serial port to even plug that cable in.  G

GGG posted:

I thought your TIU was an L,  It had the USB port and serial port.  Which is why I found it strange you sent the serial to USB cable.  I had to remove nuts off TIU serial port to even plug that cable in.  G

Hi George, I was not clear, I sent the serial cable because that is what I had been using, I had 2 different ones I had tried.  The one that was to be a much better quality cable was the type that could be secured with the screws, because that serial port is so recessed I thought the screws would help hold a good connection, I obviously sent you the other cable. I ordered the cable to connect a new TIU  usb to usb  I doubt that will help but it is my last attempt at getting this thing to work. As I said if I can just get the handheld to work correctly I can live without the wifi. 

Thanks George, I will let you know how I make out 

I read this article and I don't want to make any changes to my engines.  My pretty simple solution is when things don't work, simply take the seemingly offending engine / car off the the track.

This works well for me.  I guess that's the advantage of having a larger fleet.

John