Legacy remote-to-base range for Base3 better than 990 or base 1L?

Cab1-L & Cab2, around 30ft-through walls for both Base2 &3 with the stock antennas... and, around 65' with the High Gain 12dbi antenna from an old Asus router.  The train room is in the attic... I can go downstairs outside to the far side of the swimming pool and run the trains ...although, this is not advisable.

Thank you! Is this an improvement from previous experience with a 990 or 1L base in the same place?

It sounds like a booster with 9 dB gain won’t harm the Base3 then?

Don

@cnwdon posted:

Thank you! Is this an improvement from previous experience with a 990 or 1L base in the same place?

It sounds like a booster with 9 dB gain won’t harm the Base3 then?

Don

Don,

The location of the Bases has remained the same... i.e., 23ft from the rear of the house and 19ft above ground level.   I started using the Asus router antenna (I have 3 of them) shortly after acquiring the 990.  There is No Base 1-L.  I got the Cab1-L as a backup 'after' I purchased the 990.  I cannot speak to any 'boosters' these are just straight up high gain antennas (plug & play) on the Base2 & 3.  I have no idea if other 12dbi antennas have the high gain they advertise.  I do know that Netgear & Asus routers come with some pretty finely tuned high gain antennas.

Type: Asus 12dbi Antenna - into your chosen search engine.

Thanks. Just ordered identical 12 dB high gain antenna, will try on 990 and later with Base3. Big help.

Don

Wouldnt the range with base 3 and smart device be based on how far your smart device stays hooked to your home network.

@Ohio Jeff posted:

Wouldnt the range with base 3 and smart device be based on how far your smart device stays hooked to your home network.

The external antenna is strictly for Cab2 and Cab1L.

So i was correct?   Could you run trains from your smart device but not connected to home network?

Jeff,

In this thread we are talking about old school application specific hand-held remotes... i.e., the Cab1-L and Cab2.  These are 'Stupid' Devices for Luddites .

@cnwdon posted:

Thank you! Is this an improvement from previous experience with a 990 or 1L base in the same place?

It sounds like a booster with 9 dB gain won’t harm the Base3 then?

Don

A unpowered high gain antenna is unlikely to damage anything at the power levels were talking about. Most of the 2.4GHz transmitters are in the the small double digit mW range, so ERP is going to be pretty low.

Combined with a booster... I don't know. Boosters are actually amplifying the signal using a power source. Personally, given how much these things cost, I wouldn't bother with a booster.

I'm not sure what the gain of the included antenna is. But assuming it's 6dB, then a 12dB antenna will (theoretically) double your range. If it's 9dB gain antenna, it would be 1.5x the range.

What I don't know though, is if the antenna on the Base3 is for Wi-Fi or the 2.4GHz Legacy remote signal, or both. I also don't know what type of transmitter the Cab2/Cab1L use... though, since it's in an ISM band, it has to comply with Part 15 and 18 and the limit is 1 Watt at the antenna input.

Both...

Wi-Fi Channel Frequency List

The following table lists the standard 2.4GHz channel frequencies. If you know the frequency of a device you think may be in conflict with the Base3’s Wi-Fi, use the table to choose which frequency may best solve the interference issue.

TMCC Frequency List

You can also change the TMCC remote channel to help alleviate interference issues. When the Base3 is in “ACCESS POINT” mode, the Wi-Fi channel will automatically be changed to whichever channel best operates with the TMCC remote channel. When the Base3 is in “JOIN to NETWORK” mode, the Wi-Fi channel must be changed manually.

The following table lists the TMCC remote channel frequencies in the Base3. Use this as a guide to select the best channel if you are experiencing interference issues.

Hmm...  That may explain why Channel 9 seems to work best in a lot of cases.

@MartyE posted:

The external antenna is strictly for Cab2 and Cab1L.

@rplst8 posted:

What I don't know though, is if the antenna on the Base3 is for Wi-Fi or the 2.4GHz Legacy remote signal, or both. I also don't know what type of transmitter the Cab2/Cab1L use... though, since it's in an ISM band, it has to comply with Part 15 and 18 and the limit is 1 Watt at the antenna input.

See above.

Even though we aren't talking about it... Cab3 at the back of the swimming pool.

Train Room, upstairs in the attic doors closed.  I have no idea how much further I could have walked.

Measured at 73' 8" to the Base3.

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Even though we aren't talking about it... Cab3 at the back of the swimming pool.

Train Room, upstairs in the attic doors closed.  I have no idea how much further I could have walked.

Measured at 73' 8" to the Base3.

Is that in AP mode or Network mode?

The app will go as far as your WiFi router will allow.  I suspect in AP mode it's less.

Dennis can you check underwater for us?  Lol

Network... Static IP

There is a router in the attic and another downstairs... both are towards the front of the house.

Dennis, So, I'm curious if you (or others on this thread) know the range in AP mode---which I plan to use (don't need network mode since I'm going to use a dedicated small iPad for Cab3), and whether that AP mode range has improved with Base3 as compared to the 990?  Trying to learn what to expect as well as whether Lionel designed better AP mode range into the Base3 versus 990 as part of their development work, and choice to add external antenna?  Dave Olson hasn't had time to respond on this question yet.

Thanks

This is the same-appearing antenna ordered from Amazon today:

I did not try AP mode with the Cab3 app.  I use the cheap $59. Fire 7" tablet works great!

Referencing Cab1-L, Cab2 with the Base2&3 using the TMCC Remote Channel Frequencies (not WiFi, see above).  I used Channel 5 in all instances.  I was able to connect the Cab1-L to the Base2 & the Base3 and the Cab2 to to the Base2 & the Base3 at the (now) measured distance of 73' 8" through closed doors/wall.

Your purchase,

Looks the same... but, who knows?  Mine came off an Asus AC88U that an employee dropped off the back of a truck when we were moving.  It had 4 antennas... I gave one to a neighbor.  The great thing about Amazon is that you can return them if they don't work.  I would probably buy used ones that came from the AC68U or AC88U... but, that's just me.

Thanks. “We’ll see” how the $5 antenna performs when it gets here.  Still hoping someone has compared Base3 in AP mode to 990 with same remote on same layout, same location. Still early, may take a while for the situation to get tested and reported. I’ll most likely get a Base3 fairly soon.  Not sure about the health of my 990, so I may not have a fair comparison to make.

@cnwdon posted:

Thanks. “We’ll see” how the $5 antenna performs when it gets here.  Still hoping someone has compared Base3 in AP mode to 990 with same remote on same layout, same location. Still early, may take a while for the situation to get tested and reported. I’ll most likely get a Base3 fairly soon.  Not sure about the health of my 990, so I may not have a fair comparison to make.

Why don't you just test it first before spending money on an antenna?  I suspect the range is pretty good since Lionel had tested it on some very large club layouts.   I only have a medium sized layout but there are zero signal issues.   Plus, its only for the handheld remotes, nothing to do at all with the Wi-Fi devices.

I should have said, at best when known “healthy” my range for Cab 1L to 990 was problematic for certain paths within layout space where 1 or 2 walls are between remote and base even with a distance of only about 25 ft.  It’s whether Base3 helps that, that I’m curious about to learn from someone else’s experience.  True, I’ll develop my own when Base3 in use here.  I added the antenna with booster discussed on the Forum by GRJ and others, and didn’t see any help, which is why I’m questioning the health of my 990 now.

Like all research, replicability in more than one “institution” is important before drawing firm conclusions.  Hence my curiosity about experience elsewhere.  And I’m just a curious person (take that any way you like )

My basement walls have metal studs and the signal will not pass through them.

@cnwdon posted:

I should have said, at best when known “healthy” certain paths within layout space where 1 or 2 walls are between remote and base even with a distance of only about 25 ft.

Did the range change when using different Channels... i.e., did you test each Channel 1-9?

Dennis: No, I have not tested different channels. I’ve never before had a big enough problem to make me do that.  Thanks for the prompt on it.  That’s the next thing I need to do when I get back to working on this problem.

@cnwdon posted:

Dennis: No, I have not tested different channels. I’ve never before had a big enough problem to make me do that.  Thanks for the prompt on it.  That’s the next thing I need to do when I get back to working on this problem.

Try Channel #9 if you haven't already.  I've had the best luck with that assignment in a busy WiFi environment (I live in a townhouse community).  I can see lots of WiFi stuff around me, but I don't have any issues with Channel #9.  There are usually at least half a dozen networks that show up if I look for WiFi networks.  Sometimes several more are visible.

Thanks GRJ, noted your channel 9 comment earlier. Farthest away from the busier ranges, or whatever else might be causing interference in channel 1 range.

More information for us curious folks. Discussion on Quora re: RF from LED bulbs and tubes. The many tubes in my layout rooms may include cheap Chinese versions meeting nobody’s regulations. Sounds like whole house LED use could be a factor with unshielded wiring as a transmitter antenna. Replacement with tubes meeting US or EU regs could be necessary if other measures fail.

Interesting discussion: https://www.quora.com/Do-LED-l...-interfere-with-WiFi

I've seen no issues with WiFi and I have a house full of LED bulbs.  In truth, the only place that I still have incandescent bulbs is in the two ovens as there is no LED replacement bulb for that location.

Same here... LEDs up the ying yang ...no issues.  Don, do you have metal studs in your walls?

Just 2x4 wood studs and 1/2” drywall, but signal runs through two of them at a kind of shallow 30 degree angle from one location where I can see important parts of trackage.  Yet to try Ch 9 and the $5 12 dB gain antenna on 990.

With all remotes and the 990 on channel 9, and the 12 dB remote booster antenna installed with its antenna in a better central ceiling location in the space, I seem to have good Legacy communication everywhere as long as the remote isn’t held below table level.  Signal penetrates one stud wall at a 30 deg shallow angle fine.  It just didn’t like two walls in the way at that kind of angle.  

My Cab2 seems to have some problems.  (I wasn’t using it, so it’s not any part of the problems just solved.) Definitely a non-functioning direction reversal for that combined direction/boost/brake button and not sure whether some other items are good or not, also.  I like the Cab 1L remotes much better anyway, so that’s a small loss.  Much easier to remember what to do on the Cab 1L.  Cab2 has too many complexities unless you’re using it very often so as to keep them all in memory!

Nonetheless, I’m looking forward to a Base3 and the features of the Cab3 app for some purposes, like the easier engine naming, and combined roster feature making it easier to find a loco quicker in a large roster, even if I’ll switch to the Cab 1L to run it.  Guess I better get my order in someone’s queue sometime soon, get that firmware update done first and then learn the (here soon?) Base3 system utility as a tool.  I’m not reading about people having problems with their early production Base3’s, so far.

Thanks for all the helpful advice here, Don

The Base3 is in transit, along with some 10 and 20 ft PDI cables to separate the couple dozen LCS devices into groups of ten or less.  I gather the Base3 System Utility software on my PC will allow more easy setting of certain features, so I'm looking forward to its becoming available to download ("not yet" as of Lionel's update three days ago).  Base3 should eliminate any gremlins related to the 990 that are hard to pin down.

Maybe I should send Cab2 in for repair while parts still exist; it's nice to have for certain purposes.  Have emailed Lionel asking to send it in.

Really looking forward to the combined roster feature so all the grandkids' radio-controlled locos plus my LionChief and LionChief Plus locos can be on the same roster; and looking forward to the "A-Z" roster display option, hoping I can learn to use it to find a locomotive quicker and not have to go to my paper list of ID numbers and locos.

Merlin to Arthur paraphrased: When you're having a bad day, the thing to do is to learn something (new).  Base3 and Cab3 will provide plenty of that.

I know that I can hold my CAB2 around the corner from the base antenna and it loses contact, but I'm behind a concrete wall of the basement, so it's not a big surprise.

Regarding remote to base range and Base3 antenna options: So, adding the 12 dB booster similar or same as mentioned on the Forum, my 990 has a good connection throughout the basement with a Cab 1L remote.  But now I see any antenna with >3 dB boost is "forbidden" per Base3 documentation online.  Question: is that purely a regulatory statement related to potential interference with other radio signals in my house (or IF my neighbors were close--they aren't--nearest house is 250-300 feet from my Base3 location--interference with their radio systems) ??  Or is there potential for a higher gain like the 12 dB I'm now using to damage the Base3 ?

Thanks for someone's expertise here.

@cnwdon posted:

Regarding remote to base range and Base3 antenna options: So, adding the 12 dB booster similar or same as mentioned on the Forum, my 990 has a good connection throughout the basement with a Cab 1L remote.  But now I see any antenna with >3 dB boost is "forbidden" per Base3 documentation online.  Question: is that purely a regulatory statement related to potential interference with other radio signals in my house (or IF my neighbors were close--they aren't--nearest house is 250-300 feet from my Base3 location--interference with their radio systems) ??  Or is there potential for a higher gain like the 12 dB I'm now using to damage the Base3 ?

There shouldn't be any issue of damage to the base, this is strictly a regulatory statement as this unlicensed product is in bands with a limit on transmit power.

Thanks, GRJ.  Will try the standard antenna first.

Don,

The NJHR is a massive 12,000 foot room with a huge layout. We thoroughly tested the Base3, were a beta test site, we added a high gain antenna to improve the over all performance. We had minor issues using TMCC and 990 which Lionel recorded. We have 1 990 on the entire layout and just got our production Base3. We are testing it on the layout and have seen some issues but on the application side. We continue to test and will provide feedback to Lionel. We have not fully installed Base3 on the layout which is 40 by 250.

can you share the link to the Antenna you bought?

We have the booster (Gun Runner John) a high gain Antenna in place- using it with the 990.

Thanks,

When I've been to the NJ-HR running, I had no issues with the Legacy system.  I did bring DCS engines one time, but I did have sufficient difficulties that I left them home in succeeding visits.

I don't expect a massive difference between the Legacy command base and the BASE3 as far as the remote to base communications.  My experience with the BASE3 has been limited to visits to Harry Henning's place as he has the BASE3 installed.  I had no issues, but then I didn't have problems with the Legacy base either.