Legacy/TMCC question

The Legacy "system", i.e. Legacy base AND the Cab 2 controller, provide MANY more "speed steps" (128, if my memory serves) over the standard of 32 with the original TMCC base & Cab 1.

Thus ALL TMCC equipped models operated MUCH smoother, with finer control, regardless of  which licensed supplier of TMCC control system is installed in any of the models.

Legacy control smoothes out the speed step transitions in a TMCC loco. TMCC locos,most noteably earlier ones, typically have a noticable "jump" to the next speed step as the throttle is advanced via the old cab 1.

I find that the legacy remote gets much stronger reception than my cab-1 system. I can move all over the house. I also feel that it provides obvious feedback to the user, that a command has been accepted (in the form of a beep on the keypad, etc.). With the cab-1's soft-style keys, I was never sure if my button press was actually taking.

The legacy speed dial has notched stops where the Cab-1 is free-spinning and thus, speed can easily be accidentally altered on the cab-1.

As far as operation goes, I haven't noticed much "improvement" when operating my TMCC locos but there is also no downside as far as I can see.

Legacy frequencies  FM

Wireless CAB-1 to TMCC Command Base at 27 MHz

Wireless CAB-2 to and from Legacy Command Base at 2.4 GHz  with 9 different channels is equivalent to 2400 MHz or 100 times more hertz or signal that moves through the air than the CAB1.

455 kilohertz to track

8 or 9 bit digital signal - 8 bit TMCC engines, 9 bit legacy engines only.

32 speed steps cab1

200 speed steps Cab2

Nothing is stored in the cab everything is stored in the base.

No overlays needed on cab2

the above is how I explain the differences. got this a while ago from one of the york legacy seminars.

with the Legacy handheld operating in the TMCC mode gives more features than the Cab-1. The train brake feature is available for the TMCC mode. It allows you to vary the load on the train . The second screen gives you the speed steps which will work with TMCC locos. You can also vary momentum on the fly for very realistic acceleration and deceleration. So with the train brake, the speed steps and the ability to change momentum on the fly it becomes a lot of fun to run a train and control it on the layout. I have noticed that the so called Odyssey Lurch seems to be eliminated or at worst minimized with Legacy. Yor display screen will show you speed changes and train brake restrictions. Scroll feature will find all stored engines and set the legacy handheld to the right screen for the loco chosen. Its a much improved experience for TMCC locos especially those with can motors and odyssey.

You should consult this FAQ

http://www.legacyinfo.net/LegacyFAQ.pdf

Thank you all SO MUCH for this info. I am reading some of the Legacy threads and trying to get a better grasp on the system. So far I like it a lot!

What a great Forum - Thanks again to all of you (You too Alan & Rich!)

I just started using Legacy 2 weeks ago.  Even more impressed with the Legacy engines now that I am actually running them and further blown away by the Vision features compared to TMCC engines of past.  Didn't know what I was missing out on until now.

If you have questions, just ask and I'll chime in on my thoughts.  Helps me learn Legacy features as I go along.  I am still trying to learn about the lashups.

I'm not sure if your currently running your TMCC locos with a cab 1 Sam,but all legacy really is is a "glorified" (deservidly so) cab one. You could unbox it, plug in the base,connect one wire to track common, charge batteries or thrown in some alkalines,  address your TMCC locomotive and let it rip without even opening the manual. The icons tell you what the buttons do. My 7 year old daughter can pick it up and run my TMCC crane without even asking me what does what. Of course you need a legacy loco to unleash the full potential of the system,and once you do that...........

Uhh... this isn't really true.  A standard TMCC locomotive only responds to 32 steps, there is no way it'll run 128 steps without some different upgrade boards or a firmware upgrade (which does not exist).

The ERR Cruise Commander M upgrade will update a TMCC locomotive with modular electronics to 100 steps, and a Legacy locomotive has 200 steps.

One thing for conventional operators is the TPU in conjunction with the Legacy controller offers finer control than the PowerMaster, or at least that's what has been said.  Since I don't run conventional, I've never tested this capability.

Say what you want John, but all my Sunset/3rd Rail steam locomotives equipped with EOB, and now the ERR electronics, run better under Legacy and the Cab 2, than they previously did with the regular TMCC Cab 1. 

EOB has that option, we're talking about plain TMCC locomotives.  I also specifically mentioned ERR, which also has the 100 step option, I forgot about EOB.

Now try it with a plain TMCC locomotive.

The fact that TMCC locomotives run better under legacy is nothing new John, I've experienced the same thing with my 2005 TMCC mohawk. Legacy "cab1" mode emulates the old cab 1 operation. However, I'm under the impression you haven't run a TMCC loco in "TMCC mode" via legacy, difference is night and day.                                                      

From George Browns review in OGR run 228:" Legacy TMCC mode has expanded capabilities for much improved speed control of locomotives or power controllers that use 32 speed stepswhich includes all Lionel locomotives that have the original LCRU or the later modular ACDR,DCDR,or Odyssey motor driver boards"

"Without exception,every one of my TMCC engines accelerate and decelerate smoother with the Legacy system than they do using my original TMCC cab 1and base. And even better, several engines that are balky,or downright irksome,including my Lionel4-4-2 with one of the early attempts at Odyssey speed control,run great using the legacy system."

It's not the number of speed steps that change between a CAB-1 and a CAB-2, its the way they are "addressed".  The most overlooked/least understood pages in the Legacy manual has to do with "Modes".  Legacy controller supports three modes, CAB-1, TMCC, and Legacy.  You can run any Legacy loco in any of these modes.  You can run a TMCC equipped loco in CAB-1 or TMCC.  CAB-1 mode is reserved for backwards compatibility, control of variable voltage supplies (PowerMaster, TPC) and some accessories like the Crane Car and some action accessory/cars that use variable voltage to function.

TMCC and Legacy use "absolute speed steps".  CAB-1 uses relative.  This is why TMCC loco's run better with the CAB-2/Legacy base than the do with the CAB-1/TMCC base.  This is also why Odyssey 1 loco's behave better under CAB-2/Legacy than they do under the CAB-1/TMCC command base.  Please note that this is an issue with the CAB-1 and not TMCC per se.  An original TMCC command base can generate absolute speed commands but the CAB-1 can't.  You need a computer program that sends commands down the serial data line to get a TMCC loco to use absolute speed steps with the original Command Base. The CAB-2 can generate all three types/sets of commands.

Correct Chuck, I don't disagree that the TMCC mode is better, I was just disagreeing with the contention that a stock Lionel TMCC locomotive is capable of more than 32 steps, because that flies in the face of the 30 or so I have that don't have such a capability.  Of course, as fast as I can, I'm converting any that are compatible to ERR Cruise Commander M, so they will have more steps.

Can't wait for Legacy 1.5 so my R100 mode will work properly for all comers.

Not a problem, John.  There is an exception to the rule, the ERR DC and AC commander offer 100 steps but these can only be accessed in CAB-1 (aka relative speed step mode).  When operated in TMCC mode these have the traditional Lionel 32 steps.   I almost forgot the other reason to use CAB-1 mode is for a number of non Odyssey cruise boards (K-Line) and for the ERR board (Cruise Commander).   The later defaults to 100 steps but can be programmed for 32 to be compatible with Lionel TMCC locos.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here is train link. You can build a train with up to 5 devices in it (I believe) and access it easily. The same can be done somewhat with the cab1 but with more button presses. With Train Link you can switch from all devices in the train with one key.

Ron

Yep, I've installed all of those ERR types, but I typically just use the Legacy in TMCC mode with them.  I stick to the Cruise Commander and Cruise Commander M for any DC locomotives.  For AC motors, I think the AC Commander is the only game in town.

I'm hoping the Legacy 1.5 truly makes R100 mode work so I have that for my Cruise Commander stuff.

Forgot about TrainLink, it is a nice feature, graphics and all.

Refresh my memory on what was the issue.

I'm hoping the Legacy 1.5 truly makes R100 mode work so I have that for my Cruise Commander stuff.

It has issues with the Cruise Commander M.  There was some multiple keystroke work-around, but since I'm in building mode anyway, I figure I can wait for the 1.5 to run those engines at their maximum potential.

I'm not following?  What was the issue?  What was the keystroke work around for?

I remember it had problems reversing, I forget the specifics.  It's in a thread here someplace...

I think its buried in the thread about the K-Line cruise boards?

Chuck,

Thanks for pointing that out. I had noticed the different terms "TMCC" and "Cab 1" while scanning through the Legacy material someone posted and wondered about the difference.

For those of us interested in maximizing performance of TMCC engines, do I understand correctly that DCS similarly controls TMCC locomotives with absolute speed steps, at least in the 32-step mode? I run my EOB-equipped Atlas models this way, and find they perform better in TMCC lash ups in DCS, provided I use the 32-step mode. With the 128-step mode, I am more likely to have one get out of sync. I like the idea of 128-step mode, but don't use it for that reason. I thought I had read that 128-step mode is also a relative speed step mode, which might explain why some engines seemingly "miss" steps. Perhaps related, using DCS, one can use the "Quick set" speed command to send a speed command in 32-step mode (a good way to run EOB engines in sync), but not 128 step mode. I've assumed (but don't know for sure) that this reflects the fact 32-step mode involves absolute speed steps, but not 128 mode.

I've wondered if it would be worth my while to buy Legacy to control my Atlas engines, but if the advantage is absolute speed step control in 32-step mode, perhaps DCS already gives me that.

RM

Only cruise equipped engines that work well in tmcc mode are Odyssey 1 loco's.  I don't know if/when DCS switched to abasolute speed step mode.  I know the earlier versions used relative steps.

Well, my Legacy locomotives works well in TMCC mode with Odyssey II, but I prefer to run them under Legacy.