I’d like to see Lionel offer scale sized steamers without all the new innovations that are placing these engines way out of reach for many of us. I don’t need all the minuscule details. Just solid mechanics, smoke, generic sound, electro coupler and Legacy would be fine. I’m thinking steamers like the 773 ,783,784 and 785 but with scale size tenders. Hopefully they could get the price back down under 1K then I could start buying again.
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I can understand the sentiment. What it sounds like you are describing are "Lionchief locomotives that are based on the larger postwar steamers?
Not gonna happen. The closest you'll get to what you want are so-called "upgraded" used Postwar and MPC.
I'm kind of surprised it isn't likely to occur. I read in another thread that Lionel has kept costs the same or lowered them when accounting for inflation. Assuming that's true; if Lionel can sell these ultra high end locos that aren't simple to assemble for $2000 and make a profit/stay in business, I can't see why they couldn't pump out simple mechanical locomotives for a profit.
There must be a detail we're missing.
Williams makes that engine right now. I just bought one for less than 200 bucks with a scale tender. Double that for command control. K-Line Hudsons are out there as well with far better detail.
Pete
I like to see more LionChief Engines, but that’s going to take some time for that to come out. There are some Legacy Engines I like, but I can’t see paying the high cost for one. And then Lionel quality is another matter that’s holding me back from buying any more. I’m at a point now where I took my layout apart, and I don’t know if I want to commit anymore money in a hobby where cost and quality is a negative than enjoyment I thought I would have had running the trains. Why couldn’t Lionel just stay with LionChief and LionChief Plus only and keep the prices affordable to people like me. Lionel, you’re driving me away from the hobby. Maybe, a break from it is all I need.
@Prairie Land Junction posted:I like to see more LionChief Engines, but that’s going to take some time for that to come out. There are some Legacy Engines I like, but I can’t see paying the high cost for one. And then Lionel quality is another matter that’s holding me back from buying any more. I’m at a point now where I took my layout apart, and I don’t know if I want to commit anymore money in a hobby where cost and quality is a negative than enjoyment I thought I would have had running the trains. Why couldn’t Lionel just stay with LionChief and LionChief Plus only and keep the prices affordable to people like me. Lionel, you’re driving me away from the hobby. Maybe, a break from it is all I need.
I would like to see more LionChief locomotives, especially if they reissue postwar classics with LionChief. Lionel has put their toe in this area with the the 726 LionChief Berkshire that came out recently. The should do more. The Phantom is a locomotive just begging for the LionChief treatment. However, I don't see it as a zero sum game that more legacy locomotives means less LionChief locomotives. I enjoy both and Lionel can certainly do both!
But I think that there is a middle ground in the market that Lionel isn't fully addressing and I think you instinctively feel part of that market.
@romiller49 posted:I’d like to see Lionel offer scale sized steamers without all the new innovations that are placing these engines way out of reach for many of us. I don’t need all the minuscule details. Just solid mechanics, smoke, generic sound, electro coupler and Legacy would be fine. I’m thinking steamers like the 773 ,783,784 and 785 but with scale size tenders. Hopefully they could get the price back down under 1K then I could start buying again.
Ron,
I am pretty much in agreement with you except that I don't even want the CC--of ANY kind. But it ain't gonna happen. Too many people are invested in electronics and the minuscule details.
And, yes, I know there are Williams Hudsons, but some of us aren't Hudson fans. What I want is very much like the early '90s LTI engines like the Southern-based Mikes or the NYC-based Mohawks--not THOSE engines, but ones like them. LionCheif fails to qualify on two levels: too little size and too much electronics.
I also know that they were top-of-the-line in expense when they were new, but they no longer fill that role. Bereft of the gizmos and excruciating details, they would be mid-range at best. For me, the key is size: I want the size without the fol-de-rol.
And, yes, I know that the e-boards cost the manufacturer maybe $1.98 in materials, but they make up a HUGE fraction of the retail cost. The materials are trivial: the intellectual property--hardware, software, and development--are where the money goes.
But economies of scale are against us, and too few of us desire to forego the latest-and-greatest of bells and whistles.
So here's my approach: wait till the latest-and-greatest are no longer so late-and-great by virtue of yet more innovations. Buy them as cast-offs, gut them, if necessary, and then run the wheels off 'em.
In the meantime, I run my postwar Marx and prewar Standard Gauge 
The electronics of command control and digital sound are not cheap for the manufacturer. Buying an N scale loco from Kato (a high quality, but reasonably priced brand) with DCC and sound will add $200 to the price, just as it does in O gauge three rail. Just for reference purposes. LionChief is probably a lot less expensive, as you can buy a LionChief diesel for under $200 street price. Sound quality may not be up to the higher standards of LionChief + and Legacy, no speed control, but cheaper by far than locos sold in the 1950s with E-units, corrected for inflation.
I'd be more than happy if Lionel would get "back to basics" with some PW-style conventional offerings. Usually plead my case before every catalog but that ship seems to have sailed with the old PWC and Conventional Classics lines.
As an alternative, I like the idea of some PW-style locos with Lion Chief Plus 2.0 That would fit the bill nicely. I think somebody recently mentioned some of the old NW2 Switchers like the C&O and Seaboard with LC+ 2.0. Perfect! 
@johnstrains posted:I'd be more than happy if Lionel would get "back to basics" with some PW-style conventional offerings. Usually plead my case before every catalog but that ship seems to have sailed with the old PWC and Conventional Classics lines.
As an alternative, I like the idea of some PW-style locos with Lion Chief Plus 2.0 That would fit the bill nicely. I think somebody recently mentioned some of the old NW2 Switchers like the C&O and Seaboard with LC+ 2.0. Perfect!
I agree regarding the NW2 switchers, especially if they make the front and back electrocouplers on the LC+2.0 models full proof. I have found that the rear electrocoupler on my current LC+2.0 BEDT steam switcher operates inconsistently.
@johnstrains posted:I'd be more than happy if Lionel would get "back to basics" with some PW-style conventional offerings. Usually plead my case before every catalog but that ship seems to have sailed with the old PWC and Conventional Classics lines.
As an alternative, I like the idea of some PW-style locos with Lion Chief Plus 2.0 That would fit the bill nicely. I think somebody recently mentioned some of the old NW2 Switchers like the C&O and Seaboard with LC+ 2.0. Perfect!
Great ideas! I also think that they days of per conventional locomotives is in the past. But I think there is a great opportunity for Lionel to re-issue Postwar style locomotives with LC 2.0. Its a great offering for those of us with small to medium layouts.
I can't see this ever happening.
When Lionel offered the"conventional classics" series several years ago.
Many of these ended up being" blown out" at deep discounts due to lack of sales.
The high end stuff. When its done right, i.e. correct sound, colors etc. Seldom gets blown out.
@RickO posted:When Lionel offered the"conventional classics" series several years ago.
Many of these ended up being" blown out" at deep discounts due to lack of sales.
The high end stuff. When its done right, i.e. correct sound, colors etc. Seldom gets blown out.
Very true, sad to say. Lionel's biggest competitor right now is the "old Lionel". There are a ton of traditional sized operator quality Postwar, MPC and LTI for very low prices. Check the online auction sites and see how how many new 6464 cars you can buy for under $20.00 a piece. Add in the new Menards inexpensive traditional freight cars and you can see why Lionel has all but abandoned that market. There are already more traditional sized trains out there then there are operators looking to buy them.
Having said all that, I would love to see Lionel re-issue traditional 6464 sized box cars with something else on them besides "celebrating Uncle Harold and Aunt Marge's 50th wedding anniversary" photos on them or Disney princess on them. I'm not optimistic.
You guys keep getting it confused. Some of us don't want PW conventional: we want scale conventional.
Of course, it will probably get blown out, too, sans the gizmos (as I noted above), but at least acknowledge the actual product desired, please.
Rod, I agree. And I'll add one to your list - the Warhorse version, but with the missing parts added that its sibling, the NYC, had.
Rick, I don't think that Rod meant the postwar rehashes and Pulmors, but rather scale engines without $$$ adding complexity.
And not Williams style, he did say Legacy.
Dave
@palallin posted:You guys keep getting it confused. Some of us don't want PW conventional: we want scale conventional.
Of course, it will probably get blown out, too, sans the gizmos (as I noted above), but at least acknowledge the actual product desired, please.
Pallalin, you just need to wait a little more. In the future, I see a nice aftermarket of those beautiful scale locos with blown boards on the bay dirt cheap, ready for us to rip out the guts and go conventional. In fact, I have a number of command locos that I've already slated for this when the electronics blow. The value for me is in the hardware, shells and detail of the models I want. Electronics is easily replaceable or discardable.
@Dtrainmaster posted:Rick, I don't think that Rod meant the postwar rehashes and Pulmors, but rather scale engines without $$$ adding complexity.
And not Williams style, he did say Legacy.
Dave
Fair enough. Lionel did that as well, and they were also slow to leave dealer shelves. Likely because the MSRP was only $150 less than their Legacy counterparts.
@palallin posted:You guys keep getting it confused. Some of us don't want PW conventional: we want scale conventional.
Of course, it will probably get blown out, too, sans the gizmos (as I noted above), but at least acknowledge the actual product desired, please.
I'm not convinced there is a market for that. A scale locomotive with just conventional operation is not going to be that much less money but it will be very much less desirable.
A typical train buyer who spends $700 to $1200 for a scale locomotive is going to what all the tech if he spends that kind of money.
@Strap Hanger posted:Pallalin, you just need to wait a little more. In the future, I see a nice aftermarket of those beautiful scale locos with blown boards on the bay dirt cheap, ready for us to rip out the guts and go conventional. In fact, I have a number of command locos that I've already slated for this when the electronics blow. The value for me is in the hardware, shells and detail of the models I want. Electronics is easily replaceable or discardable.
That's my plan, too.
@palallin posted:That's my plan, too.
Assuming that it is really your plan:
- How long ( number of years) do you expect it to take for the electronics to fail in these locomotive and it will become economical for you to buy them and install conventional control?
- Until that all happens, what are you doing while you wait?
@Madockawando posted:I'm not convinced there is a market for that. A scale locomotive with just conventional operation is not going to be that much less money but it will be very much less desirable.
A typical train buyer who spends $700 to $1200 for a scale locomotive is going to what all the tech if he spends that kind of money.
It can be a LOT less money--because the electronics are a large part of the cost--and it would be very much MORE desirable to some few of us.
I know there is not a big enough market for it--I have said so twice before in this thread. [Where's the head-banging emoticon when you need it?] This entire thread is wishful thinking just because of the typical train buyer. That no manufacturer understands the potential in leaving a few of those scale locomotives unadorned by the gizmos for us Atypical buyers, however, saddens me.
@Madockawando posted:Assuming that it is really your plan:
- How long ( number of years) do you expect it to take for the electronics to fail in these locomotive and it will become economical for you to buy them and install conventional control?
- Until that all happens, what are you doing while you wait?
How much longer? It's happening now. I have two (out of four) that are partially failed already. I just haven't had time to begin the work.
What do I do? I run those crippled engines without worrying about the gizmos and the conventional ones I already have.
And, by the way, if I say it's my plan, you can safely assume it "really" is.
Actually the electronics are only a fraction of the cost of making an engine. Its their desireabilty that makes some people willing to pay more for those features. Why are there 4 figure cell phones or car models that cost 10-15k more than similiar models?
Thats the reason you won't find a conventional or otherwise dumbed downed engines for more than few bucks less than a full featured one.
Pete
@palallin posted:It can be a LOT less money--because the electronics are a large part of the cost--and it would be very much MORE desirable to some few of us.
I know there is not a big enough market for it--I have said so twice before in this thread. [Where's the head-banging emoticon when you need it?] This entire thread is wishful thinking just because of the typical train buyer. That no manufacturer understands the potential in leaving a few of those scale locomotives unadorned by the gizmos for us Atypical buyers, however, saddens me.
Well Ok... you know that there really isn't a market for what you are looking for and you acknowledge that because there isn't a market Lionel is not going to produce scale locomotives sans tech.
So to circle back to the beginning, it seems your choices are:
- Lionel scale T-1 from 1993
- Or just buy the scale locomotives that you want and run them conventionally with your ZW.
Otherwise: "These aren't the locomotives you are looking for, you can move along about your business."
BTW I am really not trying to be cheeky here but let's acknowledge that the hobby has changed dramatically and its never going back. Never... ever. There is no money for Lionel going backwards just like there is no money in the Bluth Banana Stand.
@palallin posted:It can be a LOT less money--because the electronics are a large part of the cost--and it would be very much MORE desirable to some few of us.
As I demonstrated 5 posts up. Lionel has already offered conventional scale locomotives 10 years ago.
Cosmetically identical to their Legacy counter parts. However, the MSRP for the conventional Scale K4 I posted above was $749 while the Legacy version was $899. The conventional versions did not sell well.
I think folks "assume" that the electronics is the brunt of the cost. I disagree, rather that the brunt of the cost is in the manufacturing.
At the end of the day, its what sells or doesn't sell, especially when the manuifacturer is owned by an investment company.
What yelds dividends faster/easier? 500 scale locomotives at $1600-$2000 or 1000 starter sets at $400.
I dunno, only Lionel would.
A Locomotive sitting on a shelf at a dealer for 10 years can't be good.. at least for the dealer.
@palallin posted:You guys keep getting it confused. Some of us don't want PW conventional: we want scale conventional.
Of course, it will probably get blown out, too, sans the gizmos (as I noted above), but at least acknowledge the actual product desired, please.
Then shouldn't this thread have been started on the 3RS forum, not the toy train forum? 🤔
A detailed scale locomotive with an electronic E-unit or LionChief system likely will be no more than 200-300 dollars less at retail than that equipped with Legacy/TMCC or PS3. That's also the price differential for a DC only HO or N scale loco , versus a DCC + sound loco. Thus instead of $1,500, figure at least 1,200-1,300 for a scale steam loco as a possible example. For the record, I don't think I've ever bought one of those, except perhaps the faux New Haven electric Lionel put out a year or two ago.
I too would love to see more Lionchief + or Lionchief 2.0’s offered. I just can’t spend 1000.00 plus on any Legacy Locos. I’d love to see a lion master turbine diesel or a lion master prr torpedo. Even scale F3’s Lionchief’s would be awesome. Like the Texas Special that was cancelled. 😒
@JDFonz posted:I too would love to see more Lionchief + or Lionchief 2.0’s offered. I just can’t spend 1000.00 plus on any Legacy Locos. I’d love to see a lion master turbine diesel or a lion master prr torpedo. Even scale F3’s Lionchief’s would be awesome. Like the Texas Special that was cancelled. 😒
Be careful what you wish for.
The Lionchief 2.0 bigboy is has an MSRP of $1199 and had a street price just over $1000.
@RickO posted:Be careful what you wish for.
The Lionchief 2.0 bigboy is has an MSRP of $1199 and had a street price just over $1000.
And I think on Lionel’s store website that locomotive is sold out. Someone is buying them!
I know what that one cost Ricko, I bought one. What I’m saying is I’d like to see the Lionchief series keep growing. It does not have to be the biggest locos. I’d be happy with simple, more basic offerings.
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
