LionChief, LC+ quality control?

Hi John

I am an advanced Toy Train Layout, about 24 x 10 foot shelf layout. I run advance Lionel and MTH Locos, right along side my three LionChief Plus Locos, Hudson NYC  /  RS-3 Rio Grande  /  &  FT • A-B-A Rio Grande.  The only issue I had was with the FT • A-B-A Rio Grande, no spare traction tires. When Lionel has these in stock, they will mail them out. Also tinted glass in the porthole windows, and the catalog shows clear plastic in the portholes for the FT • A-B-A. Being a toy train layout, I can make this tinted portholes work.

I had to replace the Thumb Wheel in my MTH Controller.  Was about a three week process, so everything on the layout that was MTH was down and out. If there is a technical issue with a LionChief Plus loco, only one loco would be affected.

LionChief Plus can also run in conventional mode, with the bell and horn controlled by the transformer, with the rail sounds.  I feel that the Lionel Cab 1 and the MTH / TIU can be a great for improving your problem solving skills.  LionChief Plus, put it on the track, and have fun. any visitor to the train room can be up and running. I do not even show them my MTH / Controller. To much to show a beginner. If they stay a while, I have to run the Lionel Cab 1 & MTH.

At this point the LionChief Plus quality control is excellent.

That is not what he asked Gary.  If your command engines Lionel or MTH have a command system issue you can run them conventionally,  Same with LC+ if you dropped your remote and broke it.  With LC you would be down.

John I had one warranty repair on a LC for no sound.  Turned out to be bad speaker wire connection.

I would be careful of using this forum as your sample, way too small.  The fact in another post that Lionel is not accepting billable repairs because of a back log implies something is not right.  Either volume of repairs, or some other throughput issue.  What engines are involved would only be known by Lionel.

You need to understand a large amount of dealers do not have technician and most (in my opinion) go back to the manufacturer.  Since Lionel has not held a course in many years now, I would believe the dealer tech situation is harder on Lionel than MTH.  All subjective and not intending to bash anyone.   G

The QC checking on these engines go through the same hands checking the higher end locomotives. There will always be a certain percentage of product that will have some kind of issue out of the box (i.e. ~2% or so). This is expected manufacturing quality that is shared across multiple industries, not just model trains. These are also the ones you see posted about in the forums. 

The good thing is when problems like this arise, whether it be missing traction tires or fallen off wheels, Lionel will remedy the issue. Out of say 20 higher end engines I've purchases over the past couple years, I've had minor issues with maybe only 1. This includes Legacy and LC products. Others have more frequent issues with their purchases. Seems to be a luck of the draw type situation. But when a manufacturer is standing by to help fix those problems, then the qc issues to me are less of a concern.

Thanks.

"But when a manufacturer is standing by to help fix those problems" Well, How nice! How about they spend a little more time standing by the Chinese workers checking how these things together.  I know there will always be some issues. But, it is the constant recurring Cr^p that bothers me. Some of it is the design of the product. IMHO.

"I own 4 LC/+ engines.  Each one has worked perfectly with no flaws in functionality or cosmetically.  "

Ditto for me.  That said, I expect most consumer products to have a 5-10% problem rate, based upon surveys in Consumer Reports.  Some of these are user error, of course, given the male tendency never to read directions . 

GGG, I understand that there is a shortage of techs out there, and that may affect where and when a problem could be fixed.  From a post a while back I got the impression that actually repairing an LC engine may not be worth the trouble for anyone as opposed to replacing it.  I would also guess that the tech, while similar on a basic level, is significantly different than other systems as to require new and different training to diagnose and repair these engines.  Added to that having road number specific boards may hamper the ability to make repairs in house, and pretty much make it impossible for an authorized service center to do the typical board level repairs.  only component level repairs would be a feasible route, and my impression is that there are very few component level repairs that even trained techs perform.  

All this still is sort of a side note, however, as weather or not you can get the locomotive fixed, or it has to be returned or replaced, it still counts as a bad locomotive as far as quality control goes.  

I agree that I won't get a proper polling here, but I actually expect to get a higher than average number of bad products reported.  the folks on this forum may only be a small percentage of the lionChief buying public, or perhaps permillage would be a better figure, but I do think the folks here also buy more trains per person than much of the rest of the public and are likely to see more problems than your average joe.  I think I can extrapolate a fair idea of if there are abundant issues, or just the occasional, fluke, bad engine.  

Shawn, do you have some examples of the recurring cr@p with Lionchief/+ engines?  

Everyone else, thank you so far.  

P.S. George, I really do appreciate your comments on things.  You keep me honest and correct my mistakes more often than I think you should have to.  Keep it up!

P.P.S.  I edited the original topic with a bit more on what I'm actually looking for here.  Basically quality control would include product that does not do what it is supposed to or is cosmetically damaged. It doesn't include the user's preference for some features or dis-like of others... only issues with things not working as they were designed to work or being physically broken. 

I should add that I've purchased and donated about 6-8 LC sets. I've tested all of them and they worked. I'm not certain I'd hear if they were defective in the end-user's hands, but no news is usually good news .  When I read the Amazon reviews of the Thomas set  I do wonder how many people have actually read the instructions.  So many of the reviews are beastly negative that those reviews cannot represent an statistically valid sample, as opposed to primarily those with problems, whether of Lionel's, UPS's or their own making.

But my experience so far is 0 out of the box defects out of about 10-12 purchases if you include both LC and LC+.

JohnGaltLine posted:

GGG, I understand that there is a shortage of techs out there, and that may affect where and when a problem could be fixed.  From a post a while back I got the impression that actually repairing an LC engine may not be worth the trouble for anyone as opposed to replacing it.  I would also guess that the tech, while similar on a basic level, is significantly different than other systems as to require new and different training to diagnose and repair these engines.  Added to that having road number specific boards may hamper the ability to make repairs in house, and pretty much make it impossible for an authorized service center to do the typical board level repairs.  only component level repairs would be a feasible route, and my impression is that there are very few component level repairs that even trained techs perform.  

All this still is sort of a side note, however, as weather or not you can get the locomotive fixed, or it has to be returned or replaced, it still counts as a bad locomotive as far as quality control goes.  

I agree that I won't get a proper polling here, but I actually expect to get a higher than average number of bad products reported.  the folks on this forum may only be a small percentage of the lionChief buying public, or perhaps permillage would be a better figure, but I do think the folks here also buy more trains per person than much of the rest of the public and are likely to see more problems than your average joe.  I think I can extrapolate a fair idea of if there are abundant issues, or just the occasional, fluke, bad engine.  

Shawn, do you have some examples of the recurring cr@p with Lionchief/+ engines?  

Everyone else, thank you so far.  

P.S. George, I really do appreciate your comments on things.  You keep me honest and correct my mistakes more often than I think you should have to.  Keep it up!

P.P.S.  I edited the original topic with a bit more on what I'm actually looking for here.  Basically quality control would include product that does not do what it is supposed to or is cosmetically damaged. It doesn't include the user's preference for some features or dis-like of others... only issues with things not working as they were designed to work or being physically broken. 

I understand this is a post on lion chief LC/LC +. I was talking about lionel product across the board. This I've experienced first hand.  As far as LC/LC+ my opinion is second party.  Although, the second party is mostly dealers.   I've heard a good number of issues with the remotes. Something, I have experienced with on other non-lc remote set. Some of this stuff needs redesign IMHO. A better stop for the potentiometer...Better thicker plastic.

Landsteiner posted:

"I own 4 LC/+ engines.  Each one has worked perfectly with no flaws in functionality or cosmetically.  "

 

Ditto for me.  That said, I expect most consumer products to have a 5-10% problem rate, based upon surveys in Consumer Reports.  Some of these are user error, of course, given the male tendency never to read directions . 

You expect 5 to 10 percent. Geez. Years ago when I was running QC.. I would get fired for those number. a matter of fact the only place I would expect to see those numbers is in production of large circuit boards.

Something that was caught. As each assembled product was tested. Regardless, of the actual failure rate. What bothers me is the way most things are assembled. Machine screws in plastic on fast track switches. How many time can I replace the ultra bright LED that has a high failure rate without needing super glue to put the switch back together. How about some PEMS....Even the LC remotes. They really do look like some cheaper radio shack project box. Do, I think things have gotten better over the years? Yes! Do, I think it is a accomplishment considering the engines have more technology? Yes!

So, There needs to be more "CLOUT" put into reparability via engineering.

"You expect 5 to 10 percent. Geez. Years ago when I was running QC.. I would get fired for those number. a matter of fact the only place I would expect to see those numbers is in production of large circuit boards."

These are problem rates, not QC failures.  Many if not most are user error, damage during shipping and other things that cannot easily be prevented by engineering or QC.  Things cannot be made totally idiotproof , and building everything to stand up to serious abuse is prohibitively expensive.  Anyone who deals with the public knows that a small but not insignificant percentage of the public is clueless, malicious or otherwise problematic.  That accounts for a fair amount of the complaints that any company making or selling stuff deals with.  Just worth keeping in mind when you read complaints.  That is, always consider the source and whether the complaint is believable as stated, or not.  Most forums have a few people who find fault everywhere, or have an astonishing number of problems with products.  Can it be real? Sure.  But it can also be the "other things."

GGG,

    I do understand your point, however in the past few years I have provided at least 6 LC Trains as Christmas gifts and so far not one of them has had a problem, right out of the box, including my own Hallmark/Lionel Santa Toy Maker Express, which got run pretty hard thru the Christmas season.  In our case we are batting 100%, quality NIB, I realize this is a very small sample, however each train was different and all have been perfect right out of the box, and as you see below powerful enough to pull additional add on Cars.

PCRR/Dave

trainroomgary posted:

Hi John

I am an advanced Toy Train Layout, about 24 x 10 foot shelf layout. I run advance Lionel and MTH Locos, right along side my three LionChief Plus Locos, Hudson NYC  /  RS-3 Rio Grande  /  &  FT • A-B-A Rio Grande.  The only issue I had was with the FT • A-B-A Rio Grande, no spare traction tires. When Lionel has these in stock, they will mail them out. Also tinted glass in the porthole windows, and the catalog shows clear plastic in the portholes for the FT • A-B-A. Being a toy train layout, I can make this tinted portholes work.

I had to replace the Thumb Wheel in my MTH Controller.  Was about a three week process, so everything on the layout that was MTH was down and out. If there is a technical issue with a LionChief Plus loco, only one loco would be affected.

LionChief Plus can also run in conventional mode, with the bell and horn controlled by the transformer, with the rail sounds.  I feel that the Lionel Cab 1 and the MTH / TIU can be a great for improving your problem solving skills.  LionChief Plus, put it on the track, and have fun. any visitor to the train room can be up and running. I do not even show them my MTH / Controller. To much to show a beginner. If they stay a while, I have to run the Lionel Cab 1 & MTH.

At this point the LionChief Plus quality control is excellent.

Hi Gary,

My friend who is a authorized Lionel tech told me he uses Bullfrog Snot instead of replacing traction tires. I watched him apply some when he was going to replace the traction tires. It takes about 24hrs before you can run the engine, but it last much longer than traction tires do.

http://www.bullfrogsnot.com/

LANDSTEINER - You are entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately, I totally disagree.  I still have a boat anchor ZW-C another wonderful design. The fast track switches --- Geez , HO type quality.  Actually, most of the stuff is way overpriced for the level of quality of the product. IMHO Pure over priced junk! I hate to use that phrase. But, it is the only thing that truly fits.

Ok, So, I see this new Lion chief equipment. The instant perception is high quality...Then, a remote that feels like it is for light bright Christmas lights. Geez!

Everything, I own is lionel. Between, the prices and the quality. I'm buying less and less.

Gary,

   95% of all my engines are run without rubber traction tires, and they run great, even with the add on Cars, the LC Santa Toy Maker express runs just fine, on all the different levels of our layout.   I do not own any of the lighter LC Diesel Engines however.  If I was Lionel, I would get rid of all the rubber traction tires, and engineer all the new LC+ Engines with Magna-Traction.

PCRR/Dave

I'm reading through another post now and saw yet another mention of the control knob snapping off on a remote to be a reported problem.  Is this actually a thing that happens in real life?  

Seriously, the knob it's self was a royal PITA to remove when I was disassembling the remote for my NW2, and an equally a PITA when I first disassembled my polar express remote a year ago to see just what was inside of it.  I don't see the plastic part of the knob failing without putting pliers on it.  This is a sort of softish plastic, that seems more likely to bend than to break, and there is a metal sleeve that actually makes contact with the potentiometer's shaft. 

The other part of the equation is a standard 10k potentiometer.  Now I know these are less common in the last 10-15 years, but for the 50 years before that every control knob on pretty much every sort of electronic device used the same design of off the shelf potentiometer.  The other turning knobs using rotary switches use a very similar mechanical stop as the pots.  Before the 1960's there was a little more variation in the design of pots and rotary switches but the basic idea was the same... as far as the robustness of the 10k pot in use in LC/+ remotes, once again, I cant see damaging it with out doing so intentionally, nor do I recall broken potentiometers being a serious issue in consumer electronics. Dirty ones, sure, but not broken.  

The weakest link in the entire setup is the small notch in the plastic for the centering tab on the pot, I could see, if one loosened the nut that holds the pot in place, and they unsoldered the pot from the board, such that it was otherwise free turning, that one could twist the knob in such a way that would pull the tab free of it's slot.  

My other thought here is that perhaps the thomas remote uses a different part than other LC/+ remotes.  Anyone that could confirm if the Thomas remote uses the same 10k Potentiometer as other LC remotes for the control knob?  Maybe a softer, or more brittle plastic for the knob it's self that is more likely to be damaged?  

I guess I just don't see this as something that would break in normal use, or even under moderate abuse.  I think I would have to use a tool of some kind to put enough force on the knob to cause damage.  

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the knob breaking off... could just need to get off the soap box now.  

JGL

I did notice on my LC+ Hudson that about a year after I got it the sound would at times cut off for a split second here and there around the track.   I took a look and I ended up checking out the wires that connect the speaker on the tender to the the draw bar connector.   There are 3 wires (small short solid wires) from the draw bar, each wrapped separately with an insulator sleeve that together are bundled and wrapped together with a thicker rubber sleeve before exiting individually into the tender and the speaker.  I removed the outer sleeve and I notice each the inner sleeves just seems to connect the wires.  I gently tugged on each one individually and the one to  the left came right out of the sleeve.  I re-soldered the longer wire from the speaker to the short stiff wire from the draw bar connector, used some shrink tubing and it was good as new.   Now the sound never cuts out anymore.  

Technically this is a design flaw not a quality control issue.  Using a simple insulator sleeve to couple or join wires together without a soldered connection is probably a cost saving method built into the design.  It  has a slightly higher likelihood of failure...but again it only happened on 1 of 3 wires in my tender.  I can see that someone who didn't bother to look for this or couldn't guess where the problem was might just send the unit back for repair, but the repair was only a 10 minute fix.    I'm still a big fan of the Lionchief plus product for what it does and what it offers.    

For out of the box perfect, none of mine have been for long. The Scout has the some times issue prone smoke unit design from 1962, who knew post war ear designed parts were still used? I do not see it as worth fixing. I had the rare NW2 that the board died in less than ten hours after I received it. The Hudson had the lose from wheel on the front truck, not a big deal to me, I pushed it in and it had been fine since. All worked fine out of the box, and Lionel was excellent with their customer service, even if they never did find the source of the issue in the NW2. All passed quality control fine. For me the ether bad directions, contradicting directions, in the case of all three incomplete, there I have a problem. A fixed/updated version available on the Lionel product page in PDF form would be fine by me.

ALLIN,

Thanks for your reply.  I was wondering if you could expand on it a little.  I'm afraid I do not know exactly what issue there is with the smoke unit now or from 1962.  Could you explain that? 

It seems with the NW2 board, you caught a bad one.  

With the directions, could you explain what issues there are?  What is missing, contradicting or wrong in particular?  

Thanks, JGL.

Basically the smoke unit was the cheap puffing one from 1962, has been modified over time. I have read it can catch on fire on extremely rare occasions. Fortunately I have only had the smoke fluid it leaks and sprays burn to no damage to the engine or anything else. I think the issue comes when made of the wrong plastic or I am guessing it used to be made with more metal. It is simple but prone to problems. It was modified during the MPC Era, but still has the same part number despite losing the headlamp.

As for the manuals the problems arise from the maintenance directions they are incomplete. The NW2 leaves out the gears need grease (mine quit making a rather annoying thunking sound once they were, i did not run it once it started), and the Hudson some of the oil locations if I remember right. (it corned better after the whole front truck assembly was oiled, no more leaning at speed) My experience has been the directions for loading smoke fluid are wrong with all three, or contradicted by Lionel LLC documentation. these I find troubling for new owners as they could damage theirs engines from improper use and maintenance after reading the directions.

ALLIN, thanks again.

With the smoke unit I agree that there should be better instructions for filling, as the recommended 4 drops is rather meager, especially to prime the unit.  On the other hand, if you follow those instructions you'll never see fluid leak from the thing.  

With the greasing of parts, I'm afraid I don't have any insight.  My NW2 only has about 30 hours run time at this point( about 20 of that over 2 days while I left it creeping around an oval while working on my LC-TMCC bridge), and doesn't show any signs of needing a re-lube yet.  In fact the only lionel product I own that had any issues with lube was a early 2000's era baby hudson that started derailing on O27 switches.  (This was about 12 or so years ago now, so I'm not absolutely sure, But I think this was after about 30-40 hours of run time) Turned out it needed some grease under the pilot truck, which the tech at my LHS gleefully pointed out.  The engine now has hundreds of hours run time and has not been lubed since the time of that problem.  

I'll have to give the instructions another look through to see what they have to say on lube. 

I would assume in your case we can chalk up a QC problem of 'insufficient or improper factory lube', under the assumption that the problem manifested without significant run time on the engine.  I'll add this one to the list of reported issues.  

JGL

Just purchased my first Lionchief Plus on Jan 31 and thought I would give an update. Loco is the C&NW RS-3

I am a little disappointed, quality-wise.

It did run correctly out of the box, but after a few hours it started to stall repeatedly on a certain spot on a certain grade, and began to lose power going through some switches. Unit would stop and cab light would blink at about 1 second intervals. All track is newly laid Fastrack, didn't think I had a problem but checked track out and found no issues. Problem persisted. After a few days the front electro-coupler became intermittent, and after a few more days the cab lighting failed completely. The power loss kept getting worse.

Decided to take the unit apart and figure it out. Power problem took me a while to find, shame on me! Good old PW design, the truck and motor frame act as the outside rail conductors, and there is a wire lug around a mounting screw on each motor that connects to the control board. Those lugs and their connections were good. Problem was, the motor is secured to the truck with a single machine screw. These screws were VERY loose in both trucks and because the metallic contact between the motor and the truck is the third rail connection, continuity was poor at best and lost at worst. Tightening the screws ( about 4 full turns!) solved the intermittent power problems. I wasn't expecting lose screws on a brand new unit.

The electrocoupler was a soldering/mechanical issue. Coil is wound with what looks like #32 wire, but the end of the coil wire is connected to the cable via a "flying splice" that is taped against the coil. Mine was apparently never soldered correctly, the cable pulled completely out of the tape but the coil wires were intact and reusable. once the tape was removed. I resoldered them and put it back together, but not before I called Lionel, theoretically they are sending me a new coupler.

Cab lights surprised me as well; there are two SMD LEDs wired in PARALLEL and mounted to a tiny circuit board on the roof of the cab. There is no current-limiting resistor on the LED board, it is apparently included in the main control board for the loco. One of the LEDS was shorted, which of course extinguished both of them due to the parallel connection. I have lot of the 12V LED light strips around so I took a couple LEDs off one of them and installed them in the original board. Works now, was a lucky guess that the color would be about right.

We will see what develops, but that seems like more than enough trouble for the first 3 weeks!

Talk of quality control reminds me of an old story. Back during the MPC days Lionel always checked their transformers were up to snuff by dropping them off a table onto a cement floor. If they held up and worked they passed, a literal drop test. One holiday season a batch failed, they chose to miss the holiday season than ship a bad batch of transformers. A missed season is easier to over come than having to have your name hurt by a recall, and angry customers from  bad product.