I do not own any Lionchief products and was just wondering, "Do these products coexist or are they separate control systems?" Does the Lionchief product talk to the Legacy/TMCC boxes to move switches, turn blocks on and off, etc.?
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Lionchief or LC+ does NOT talk to Legacy to do any switches, blocks, etc. Legacy does NOT control LC or LC+. Using their discrete systems they can co-exist.
The latest Legacy locomotives do have Bluetooth control so you may use your LC Universal remote (the orange one) or the LC Bluetooth App to run them. The Legacy remote will also run those Legacy engines.
MartyE posted:Lionchief or LC+ does NOT talk to Legacy to do any switches, blocks, etc. Legacy does NOT control LC or LC+. Using their discrete systems they can co-exist.
The latest Legacy locomotives do have Bluetooth control so you may use your LC Universal remote (the orange one) or the LC Bluetooth App to run them. The Legacy remote will also run those Legacy engines.
Are you saying the new Legacy engines with Bluetooth can be operated by the LC orange universal remote ? I was not aware of that - does that mean the remote is equipped with Bluetooth control ?
Richie C. posted:Are you saying the new Legacy engines with Bluetooth can be operated by the LC orange universal remote ? I was not aware of that - does that mean the remote is equipped with Bluetooth control ?
Yes the UR has Bluetooth. That is how you update the universal remote. I assume they use that to control the Bluetooth Legacy engines but don't know that 100% but it seems logical.
What is the UR (Universal Remote?)
From the Lionel Store Website regarding the new engine
Features:
- LEGACY Control System equipped - able to run in LEGACY Control mode, in TrainMaster Command Control mode or in Conventional mode with a standard transformer
- Bluetooth equipped - operate with the Universal Remote or LionChief App!
Is there a P/N for this device?
What makes this a "Universal Remote"? It only seems to control Locomotives. And only Three to boot.
So I go out and spend $1900 for this Niagara Locomotive and I also am buying "Bluetooth" communication that I will never use. Does not Lionel need to purchase a Bluetooth License for each Locomotive? Why is Lionel adding a function that is useless to us that have heavily invested in their Legacy Control System? $300 for the command base and remote and on average $100 per Legacy Box? Man, I don't understand this marketing logic.
Loose-Caboose posted:What makes this a "Universal Remote"? It only seems to control Locomotives. And only Three to boot.
in lionels mind that is what makes it universal....
"Why is Lionel adding a function that is useless to us that have heavily invested in their Legacy Control System? $300 for the command base and remote and on average $100 per Legacy Box? Man, I don't understand this marketing logic."
I'm guessing the Bluetooth license costs all of about $1.00 per loco. It's not primarily designed for those already using the Legacy system. Lionel is working on a possible technical solution for having Legacy talking to Lionchief/Bluetooth.
Lionchief started out as something simply to keep costs down for starter sets and provide a remote and limited command control for these customers. It became so popular that Lionchief+ was introduced to have conventional compatibility. LC+ was so popular that a need for a system that could operate all new locos (Bluetooth) was introduced this year. It's the evolution of technology.
And it drastically cuts the cost of command control for new people in the hobby. You don't need to buy anything, no wi-fi box, no command base, no anything to have basic command control, which is unique in the hobby of model railroading at present. When you buy a Lionchief set or loco, or a LC+ loco, you get a remote with each loco, and they are relatively inexpensive, and complement your Legacy system. It's a feature, not a bug 
. Your investment in Legacy, which can control trains, lashups, switches, program routes, etc. isn't in any way compromised.
Landsteiner posted:You don't need to buy anything, no wi-fi box, no command base, no anything to have basic command control, which is unique in the hobby of model railroading at present.
Bingo. I've been involved in this hobby less than a year. My only regret is buying MTH engines when I got started. I'm 100% Lionel from now on because they have Bluetooth. I own a couple LC+ and now have a couple Legacy engines on order because they have Bluetooth. Hopefully, it will never be necessary to invest in Legacy or DCS for those of us starting out.
Landsteiner posted:"Why is Lionel adding a function that is useless to us that have heavily invested in their Legacy Control System? $300 for the command base and remote and on average $100 per Legacy Box? Man, I don't understand this marketing logic."
I'm guessing the Bluetooth license costs all of about $1.00 per loco. It's not primarily designed for those already using the Legacy system. Lionel is working on a possible technical solution for having Legacy talking to Lionchief/Bluetooth.
Lionchief started out as something simply to keep costs down for starter sets and provide a remote and limited command control for these customers. It became so popular that Lionchief+ was introduced to have conventional compatibility. LC+ was so popular that a need for a system that could operate all new locos (Bluetooth) was introduced this year. It's the evolution of technology.
And it drastically cuts the cost of command control for new people in the hobby. You don't need to buy anything, no wi-fi box, no command base, no anything to have basic command control, which is unique in the hobby of model railroading at present. When you buy a Lionchief set or loco, or a LC+ loco, you get a remote with each loco, and they are relatively inexpensive, and complement your Legacy system. It's a feature, not a bug
why?
starter sets!
Loose-Caboose posted:What makes this a "Universal Remote"? It only seems to control Locomotives. And only Three to boot.
So I go out and spend $1900 for this Niagara Locomotive and I also am buying "Bluetooth" communication that I will never use. Does not Lionel need to purchase a Bluetooth License for each Locomotive? Why is Lionel adding a function that is useless to us that have heavily invested in their Legacy Control System? $300 for the command base and remote and on average $100 per Legacy Box? Man, I don't understand this marketing logic.
The term "universal" may be a marketing stretch, but it's designed to operate up to three LC/LC+ engines at the same time. LC/LC+ engines each come with their own separate remote on a different frequency so if you wanted to run all three at the same time, you'd have to juggle three remotes. With the orange "universal" remote you can operate all three from the same remote. Very convenient.
I have Legacy on my layout, but also believe Bluetooth is an added bonus to Legacy engines, not a detriment, and the Lionel BT app is free download to your device. If you had a young child or grandchild, think how neat it would be to have them be able to operate that Niagra on a cell phone app they'd pick up in about 5 seconds and have a boatload of fun with.
Richie C. posted:Loose-Caboose posted:What makes this a "Universal Remote"? It only seems to control Locomotives. And only Three to boot.
So I go out and spend $1900 for this Niagara Locomotive and I also am buying "Bluetooth" communication that I will never use. Does not Lionel need to purchase a Bluetooth License for each Locomotive? Why is Lionel adding a function that is useless to us that have heavily invested in their Legacy Control System? $300 for the command base and remote and on average $100 per Legacy Box? Man, I don't understand this marketing logic.
The term "universal" may be a marketing stretch, but it's designed to operate up to three LC/LC+ engines at the same time. LC/LC+ engines each come with their own separate remote on a different frequency so if you wanted to run all three at the same time, you'd have to juggle three remotes. With the orange "universal" remote you can operate all three from the same remote. Very convenient.
I have Legacy on my layout, but also believe Bluetooth is an added bonus to Legacy engines, not a detriment, and the Lionel BT app is free download to your device. If you had a young child or grandchild, think how neat it would be to have them be able to operate that Niagra on a cell phone app they'd pick up in about 5 seconds and have a boatload of fun with.
So activating the sounds, moving switches, etc. are a detriment? They aren't part of the fun? And also I used the term "license" in a prior post. It may be a minimal cost but the on going engineering to maintain the function must be a cost to product and I think you need to maintain certification which is a cost. All this could be applied to the Legacy engineering to further that product. If Lionel had gone down the Bluetooth route to begin with I would have a different take on this issue. But to support two different command functions is splitting engineering costs. BTW , to dispel me from being a curmudgeon old geezer, I am a smartphone fanatic and love technology (lol).
But to support two different command functions is splitting engineering costs.
Agreed. I think they're facing a real challenge. Howard Hitchcock made reference to it in the recent Notch 6 podcast. It sounded like they're trying to come up with something that is backwards compatible with everything.
So activating the sounds, moving switches, etc. are a detriment?
I can't control my switches (yet) with Bluetooth but sounds and smoke are a go!
Loose-Caboose posted:Richie C. posted:Loose-Caboose posted:What makes this a "Universal Remote"? It only seems to control Locomotives. And only Three to boot.
So I go out and spend $1900 for this Niagara Locomotive and I also am buying "Bluetooth" communication that I will never use. Does not Lionel need to purchase a Bluetooth License for each Locomotive? Why is Lionel adding a function that is useless to us that have heavily invested in their Legacy Control System? $300 for the command base and remote and on average $100 per Legacy Box? Man, I don't understand this marketing logic.
The term "universal" may be a marketing stretch, but it's designed to operate up to three LC/LC+ engines at the same time. LC/LC+ engines each come with their own separate remote on a different frequency so if you wanted to run all three at the same time, you'd have to juggle three remotes. With the orange "universal" remote you can operate all three from the same remote. Very convenient.
I have Legacy on my layout, but also believe Bluetooth is an added bonus to Legacy engines, not a detriment, and the Lionel BT app is free download to your device. If you had a young child or grandchild, think how neat it would be to have them be able to operate that Niagra on a cell phone app they'd pick up in about 5 seconds and have a boatload of fun with.
So activating the sounds, moving switches, etc. are a detriment? They aren't part of the fun? And also I used the term "license" in a prior post. It may be a minimal cost but the on going engineering to maintain the function must be a cost to product and I think you need to maintain certification which is a cost. All this could be applied to the Legacy engineering to further that product. If Lionel had gone down the Bluetooth route to begin with I would have a different take on this issue. But to support two different command functions is splitting engineering costs. BTW , to dispel me from being a curmudgeon old geezer, I am a smartphone fanatic and love technology (lol).
Just to be clear, I never, ever said that Legacy sounds, moving switches, etc. were a detriment - I don't know how you came up with that from my comments.
I was simply trying to explain my thoughts on the "universal" remote and responding to your original post in which you implied that BT was a detriment to you in new Legacy engines in the sense that you were having to pay more ($1900) for a locomotive that had a feature (BT) that you would "never use" and that was "useless" to you. In fact, someone else pointed out in response to your post that BT in Legacy engines was a "feature, not a bug."
I love my Legacy system and all that it can do, but I also respect the fact that others may want to go in a different direction and I see nothing wrong with Lionel developing, adding and promoting BT as a way to bring more people, especially a younger demographic, into the hobby and, if it costs me an extra $5 on a $1,900 engine, I'm happy to support it.
In addition, Legacy isn't just about it's operational features - it's also about a higher quality of build and better looking locomotives that were not previously available to BT users of LC/LC+ engines. With BT now added to Legacy engines, BT users can now get the same quality of build, which I'm sure they appreciate.
As far as supporting "two different command functions", my outlook is that Lionel has always been about attempting to make sure that every new technology that comes out does not render previous technologies obsolete and adding BT to Legacy is an outgrowth of that philosophy and, no, I don't think you're a curmudgeon old geezer.
On the other hand, I'm no spring chicken, either.
I love Legacy command, and DCS as well. I have the WIU and can control the MTH locomotives and all my switches with my phone. However, I don't really do so. I actually like the remotes, having the tactile feedback of the buttons, wheels, and especially the cab2's quilling slider, and I am really not pleased with the what sounds to me like a seeming inevitability of a move by MTH and Lionel away from even making the remote handhelds in favor of the use of phones and other devices instead. But, in my opinion, if you are a toy train maker, it seems to be a no brainer to get bluetooth involved in your trains in this day and age.
pennsy484 posted:I actually like the remotes, having the tactile feedback of the buttons, wheels, and especially the cab2's quilling slider, and I am really not pleased with the what sounds to me like a seeming inevitability of a move by MTH and Lionel away from even making the remote handhelds in favor of the use of phones and other devices instead. But, in my opinion, if you are a toy train maker, it seems to be a no brainer to get bluetooth involved in your trains in this day and age.
You are not alone but this is one less piece of hardware that they have to make that can become outdated from the time it's conceived to the time it's produced. I personally am in the dedicated remote camp but can see why they would go the App route. Upgrades, features, and graphical interfaces are a lot easier to accomplish with a software platform using someone else's hardware. Let Apple, Samsung, and others build the hardware.
Richie C. posted:Loose-Caboose posted:Richie C. posted:Loose-Caboose posted:What makes this a "Universal Remote"? It only seems to control Locomotives. And only Three to boot.
So I go out and spend $1900 for this Niagara Locomotive and I also am buying "Bluetooth" communication that I will never use. Does not Lionel need to purchase a Bluetooth License for each Locomotive? Why is Lionel adding a function that is useless to us that have heavily invested in their Legacy Control System? $300 for the command base and remote and on average $100 per Legacy Box? Man, I don't understand this marketing logic.
The term "universal" may be a marketing stretch, but it's designed to operate up to three LC/LC+ engines at the same time. LC/LC+ engines each come with their own separate remote on a different frequency so if you wanted to run all three at the same time, you'd have to juggle three remotes. With the orange "universal" remote you can operate all three from the same remote. Very convenient.
I have Legacy on my layout, but also believe Bluetooth is an added bonus to Legacy engines, not a detriment, and the Lionel BT app is free download to your device. If you had a young child or grandchild, think how neat it would be to have them be able to operate that Niagra on a cell phone app they'd pick up in about 5 seconds and have a boatload of fun with.
So activating the sounds, moving switches, etc. are a detriment? They aren't part of the fun? And also I used the term "license" in a prior post. It may be a minimal cost but the on going engineering to maintain the function must be a cost to product and I think you need to maintain certification which is a cost. All this could be applied to the Legacy engineering to further that product. If Lionel had gone down the Bluetooth route to begin with I would have a different take on this issue. But to support two different command functions is splitting engineering costs. BTW , to dispel me from being a curmudgeon old geezer, I am a smartphone fanatic and love technology (lol).
Just to be clear, I never, ever said that Legacy sounds, moving switches, etc. were a detriment - I don't know how you came up with that from my comments.
I was simply trying to explain my thoughts on the "universal" remote and responding to your original post in which you implied that BT was a detriment to you in new Legacy engines in the sense that you were having to pay more ($1900) for a locomotive that had a feature (BT) that you would "never use" and that was "useless" to you. In fact, someone else pointed out in response to your post that BT in Legacy engines was a "feature, not a bug."
I love my Legacy system and all that it can do, but I also respect the fact that others may want to go in a different direction and I see nothing wrong with Lionel developing, adding and promoting BT as a way to bring more people, especially a younger demographic, into the hobby and, if it costs me an extra $5 on a $1,900 engine, I'm happy to support it.
In addition, Legacy isn't just about it's operational features - it's also about a higher quality of build and better looking locomotives that were not previously available to BT users of LC/LC+ engines. With BT now added to Legacy engines, BT users can now get the same quality of build, which I'm sure they appreciate.
As far as supporting "two different command functions", my outlook is that Lionel has always been about attempting to make sure that every new technology that comes out does not render previous technologies obsolete and adding BT to Legacy is an outgrowth of that philosophy and, no, I don't think you're a curmudgeon old geezer.
Settle down, I am not your enemy. To the contrary, I am a very easy going kind of guy with questions and concerns Sorry if you took my reply to be antogonistic.
I think I'm pretty well settled and didn't take your reply to be antagonistic - just an inaccurate representation of what I said.
Glad there's at least two easy going guys on the Forum.
Hear Hear! Or is it Here Here? This English language is so hard to understand some times!
For the record, I believe I have as much experience running bluetooth as anyone on the forum and it is a joy to use.
MartyE posted:pennsy484 posted:I actually like the remotes, having the tactile feedback of the buttons, wheels, and especially the cab2's quilling slider, and I am really not pleased with the what sounds to me like a seeming inevitability of a move by MTH and Lionel away from even making the remote handhelds in favor of the use of phones and other devices instead. But, in my opinion, if you are a toy train maker, it seems to be a no brainer to get bluetooth involved in your trains in this day and age.
You are not alone but this is one less piece of hardware that they have to make that can become outdated from the time it's conceived to the time it's produced. I personally am in the dedicated remote camp but can see why they would go the App route.
That makes three of us.
I believe Bluetooth is the future. Every kid I know has a PED (personal electronic device). It would be nice if there was an upgrade for existing engines or a plugin module for the Legacy base.
Chris
Chris Underwood posted:I believe Bluetooth is the future. Every kid I know has a PED (personal electronic device). It would be nice if there was an upgrade for existing engines or a plugin module for the Legacy base.
Chris
Until they add all the functionality that I have with Legacy then Bluetooth won't do it for me. I'd give up too many features and abilities by going Bluetooth. BT for me is a nice way to control an engine when I am in a non Legacy environment but when you are using Legacy there so much more in control that I won't give up for full time running.
BT is OK if you show up somewhere and want to run a BT equipped train and don't have a remote. However, I agree with Marty, with modern Legacy locomotives you lose a ton of functionality with the BT control. It basically turns it into an LC locomotive, not what I paid all that money for when I bought my fancy Legacy steam!
Just a guess, but since Bluetooth firmware can be updated easily, feature creep will occur and more and more Legacy functions will find their way into the Lionel app over time. In 5-10 years it may be prohibitively expensive or otherwise difficult to manufacture the cab-2 remote or a successor, and in that case one might expect a move toward Bluetooth or something similar for everything in their line. For those who want a physical remote, the universal remote could be similarly upgraded in capabilities.
Landsteiner posted:Just a guess, but since Bluetooth firmware can be updated easily, feature creep will occur and more and more Legacy functions will find their way into the Lionel app over time. In 5-10 years it may be prohibitively expensive or otherwise difficult to manufacture the cab-2 remote or a successor, and in that case one might expect a move toward Bluetooth or something similar for everything in their line. For those who want a physical remote, the universal remote could be similarly upgraded in capabilities.
I agree about producing a Cab2. The hardware won't be worth doing but with that said, the WiFi App would have to be updated to provide a better interface to Legacy. The Universal Remote doesn't have enough buttons to cover all the things a Legacy remote can do. The only real path for Cab2less Legacy is an updated Wifi App. I'm not sure Bluetooth can replace Legacy with any amount of updates but as MTH has proven, a WiFi app can or at least really close.
I suspect that assumes facts not in evidence unless the whole RCMC design is modified.
However, today is today, and today the BT capability is not a suitable replacement for the full Legacy CAB2. I may not be here in 10 years, I want to run my trains with all their features today. 
gunrunnerjohn posted:I may not be here in 10 years, I want to run my trains with all their features today.
Well let's hope that's not the case John. I for one hope you will be around for many years to come!
Planning for all contingencies Marty.
Not to sound like a Luddite here, but the recording (CDs) industry seems to be going back to more LPs these days and the CDs are becoming scarce. As far as physical recordings go these days anyway. Maybe the physical remotes will make a comeback someday?
And Yes, I too hope GRJ is around for a long, long time too! He just helped me out of another bind.
rtr12 posted:Not to sound like a Luddite here, but the recording (CDs) industry seems to be going back to more LPs these days and the CDs are becoming scarce. As far as physical recordings go these days anyway. Maybe the physical remotes will make a comeback someday?
I wouldn't hold my breathe.
The masses prefer downloading or streaming their music. These options far outweigh any CD or LP sales.
Correct me if I am wrong but BT doesn't replace Legacy or LC it just provides another interface so you can use the BT app. I have an investment in Legacy engines and use my cab remote but it is to complicated for youngsters who just want to control the train and blow the whistle. These kids are attached to their PED so I am just looking for a way to draw them in.
Having a BT module that can be added to older Legacy, LC or even conventional won't keep me from buying new engines that I wouldn't have bought otherwise.
Chris
Yes you are correct that BT is just a wireless trans
Chris Underwood posted:Correct me if I am wrong but BT doesn't replace Legacy or LC it just provides another interface so you can use the BT app. I have an investment in Legacy engines and use my cab remote but it is to complicated for youngsters who just want to control the train and blow the whistle. These kids are attached to their PED so I am just looking for a way to draw them in.
Having a BT module that can be added to older Legacy, LC or even conventional won't keep me from buying new engines that I wouldn't have bought otherwise.
Chris
Yes, you are correct. Bluetooth is a wireless transport protocol only and reliable per spec. to thirty feet. If your layout is greater than this specification, and you are on the far side from the device your talking to, "Good Luck" To actual do anything with BT you need an "App" on each side acquiring and performing an activity based on the data received via the protocol.
The Legacy "System" on the other hand encompasses the apps both in the remote and on the Locomotive, control boxes, etc and the transport protocol
Chris Underwood posted:Correct me if I am wrong but BT doesn't replace Legacy or LC it just provides another interface so you can use the BT app.
Correct, the BT module is just an add-on to the existing RCMC I believe.
I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion on what system and feature package they like. Bluetooth is a direct to loco RC system just like LionChief and can be controlled from a smart device, which may or may not have appeal for some of us. The technical advantage that both possess is that they avoid the track signal interface issues that have been the subject of so much discussion. I have been running and demonstrating bluetooth for over two years without a single problem of any kind.
H1000 posted:rtr12 posted:Not to sound like a Luddite here, but the recording (CDs) industry seems to be going back to more LPs these days and the CDs are becoming scarce. As far as physical recordings go these days anyway. Maybe the physical remotes will make a comeback someday?
I wouldn't hold my breathe.
The masses prefer downloading or streaming their music. These options far outweigh any CD or LP sales.
Hmmm...turntables were obsolete only a few years ago too, now they are again readily available. But, I am going to continue breathing while they work on the remotes. I listen to mp3, flac and streaming music as well, but I also have a component stereo system (with turntable) that I use for more serious listening. Unfortunately my turntable is broken right now (need to get on the stick and get it fixed).
My son (35 YO) was impressed with the fact that the Lionel Starter Set I got the grandson for Christmas had Bluetooth - "A gamechanger!" he said - when he saw the BT logo on the box.
I don't know IF BT IS a "gamechanger"- but it IS a way to reach a new audience who did not grow up with trains, and sees trains today as an annoyance or just a time to catch up on text messages while stuck at a crossing. Reaching a new demographic might be the key to survival of our hobby. And, if "Thomas", Polar Express, Mickey Mouse, and/or Bluetooth, or even the "Area 51" or "futuristic" what-if trains do that- great!!
While the Remote w/ LionChief and LC+ is limited (few buttons) - with the Bluetooth and a phone I can change sound levels, and turn on/off features. Even an old guy like me (who would buy a rotary-dial cell phone if I could) uses BT with my trains for these things. I see BT as a way to actually add functionality to a less-expensive non-Legacy engine.
I think that BT fits right in for the LC/LC+ line. I don't even have an issue with it being included on new Legacy stuff. I start to draw the line when they remove features that I currently have with the Legacy remote, why would I buy Legacy stuff if it was going to be run like LC stuff? I also don't like the touch screen for all the control, that is harder to manipulate than having real keys and knobs. I can easily run trains with one hand with the CAB1-L, but it's a whole lot harder with the smartphone.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I think that BT fits right in for the LC/LC+ line. I don't even have an issue with it being included on new Legacy stuff. I start to draw the line when they remove features that I currently have with the Legacy remote, why would I buy Legacy stuff if it was going to be run like LC stuff?
With one hand, and without needing to look at the remote. I want to watch the train while controlling if I can. I can't do that with the phone.
I think it's a no brainer for them to go this route for various reasons mentioned by others abovr, but I am not looking forward to it replacing the Legacy and dcs handhelds.
pennsy484 posted:With one hand, and without needing to look at the remote. I want to watch the train while controlling if I can. I can't do that with the phone.
I think it's a no brainer for them to go this route for various reasons mentioned by others abovr, but I am not looking forward to it replacing the Legacy and dcs handhelds.
I agree 100% but I know it's coming.
