LionChief Penn 0-8-0 stopped smoking

Hi,

I haven't tried out the smoke for this engine yet. Have you had a problem with the loco going at slow speeds - like hesitating and making a clicking sound? This is the thread to my post on this.

https://ogrforum.com/...-special-set-6-83072

OC Patrick:  No the engine runs fine.  I like the sound and considering it is a starter set, I think it's a great deal.  Based on my experience with two LionChief engines, they are powered by only motor and therefore don't pull a lot of cars.  Both my engines slow down in the corners (31 inch dia.) especially with 4 or 5 older Lionel cars in tow.  And let me add, I have to be 'ginger' with the remote when starting the 0-8-0 up.  I can get it to start very slowly if I am careful with the throttle.

On the 'NO SMOKE' issue.  My guests really like it because it blows smoke rings so I'd like to get it working again.

Cliff

Check down the stack. Does it look smokey but nothing is coming out?  If so check the piston.  It might be stuck. Sometimes adding too much fluid gums up the piston.  Also. The switch is on, right? Sometimes it gets shut off accidentally.

Thanks, we'll add fluid and see how much smoke the thing creates....

Can you give me some guidance on how to clean the smoke piston?

Take the shell off by removing the four screws on the bottom corners of the chassis.

Carefully lift the shell off. Sometimes sticks a little.

Remove one or two screws holding the smoke unit bracket down. Can't remember if it's one screw and a stud, or two screws.  

Slowly lift the smoke unit up making sure not to let the spring pop out. The Piston will come out first and the spring is above it. Remove both of them paying attention to the Piston position.  The cup part all of the Piston points down against the lever. ( if not familiar with it, it almost looks like it should have the cup holding the spring pointing up)

Take a Q tip or small Rag and wipe out the inside of the Piston cylinder. As well as clean the piston.  

Put the spring back in the chamber.

Put the Piston up into the Chamber against the spring.

Reinstall the smoke unit and shell.

Train Nut:  Thank you for the detail information on disassembly of the engine.  I took it apart.  The smoke piston was clean and functions smoothly.  I tested the engine and the smoke heater does not heat up.  I assume it is under control of the computer board and not being turned on.  The heater looks solid and doesn't appear to be broken.  I have a voltage multimeter and could test the voltage to see if current is flowing, but I haven't done that yet.  I reassembled the unit and discovered that the piston hits the bottom of the smoke chamber and causes the engine to hesitate slightly.  I reassembled it several times to see if I made some error.  I never ran the unit without the tender and sound, so I really don't know if it had been binding before.  Now it clicks,  I don't like that and will have to make some modification to prevent it.  I may just buy a new smoke unit if I can find it on the Lionel site.  Do you have any other suggestions?

kiehlclifford

I think I have the same clicking noise - does it stop once in a while when going at slow speeds?

Yes, and when I took the body off and watched it run I could see the smoke unit bouncing when ever the plunger was pushed up and produced the click.  I removed the plunger and the spring and retested the engine and it run very smoothly an all speeds, but especially real slow speed.  At some time I am going to reinstall the smoke unit correctly because I like the smoke, however I may have to file a little off the plunger so it doesn't strike the bottom of the smoke chamber and cause the binding, hesitation, and click.

ok - thanks. Now I know where the clicking and hesitation comes from. I'm a little wary of dis-assembling the thing - is it fairly easy to do? I would like to finally remedy this, since it was gift from someone to my son for his birthday. And the smoke doesn't seem to be a big deal for him, since he has a few other LC steam locos.

If you have a multimeter I would check for continuity across the resistor as well as voltage.. Just carefully put a small flat-head screwdriver in the top of the smoke funnel and pry the plastic funnel piece off. The resistor is on the underside of it. See if you have continuity and voltage.

Yes, look at 'Train Nuts' post above on how to disassemble.  Basically the heavy boiler lifts off the lower running piece.  There are no parts that fall out, or are contained by the two parts when together.  The smoke unit is easy to remove, 2 screws.  I simply removed the plunger and spring and reassembled.  You don't have to cut any wires.  Keep the plunger and spring for the future.

I'll do that - thanks again.

OC Patrick:  If you decide to remove the smoke unit plunger and reinstall, don't forget to turn off the smoke unit.  If you don't do that it will fry the heater.

Train Nut:  Do you know if the smoke unit is connected to the computer board on the LionChief 0-8-0, or is it always connected to track power through the on off smoke switch?

I believe it is hooked up to the circuit board. Because when you stop the locomotive and let it idle with the track voltage still applied, the smoke unit voltage reduces even though the track is still applied.

Thanks, I am trying to determine if I need a new smoke unit or circuit board.  Any ideas?

Basically, a smoke unit on these engines is a resistor and a manual piston. Resistor gets hot,  heats up the fluid in the wadding, and produces smoke. The Piston manually pushes air up through and out. If you're not getting any smoke production at all it's either a bad resistor or something in the circuit board.  As I previously mentioned, you should try the multimeter at the resistor. See if it has voltage and continuity.  Check the connections. Make sure they're securely fastened.  If all checks out good, it's most likely something in the board.

Train Nut:  Thank you for the help.  I will follow your suggestions.

I installed a new smoke unit, but it doesn't work.  I checked for voltage with my multimeter at the circuit board and there is voltage.  The piston moves up and down, but I don't think the resister is hot.  Can I probe both ends of the resister to see if there is voltage there without burning it out?

Also, would that be AC or DC to the resister?

With no power in the engine, , set your multimeter to the resistance scale (ohms) (the   Ω labelled one) and put the leads across the resister (start with a lowest range and work up). If it shows 0 on the lowest range, then it means the resister is burned out. If you see a reading (on the lowest range might be infinite or off the scale if an analog meter), move up the ohms scale until you see a reading, a resistance heat element should have a fairly high ohms rating, likely in the thousands of ohm range. If that reads, then it might be the circuit board doing it. 

Bigkid:  Thanks you for the procedure.  The resister reads infinity on my analog meter, so I guess it's the circuit board.  To bad, because I liked the smoke and am not willing to invest any more money in the engine.

Cliff

Uhh... NO.  If the resistor reads infinity on your meter, it's the resistor that's toast.  The smoke resistor in the LC locomotives is not thousands of ohms, it's an 18 ohm resistor. 

It's a $4 part on the Lionel site, however there's a $10 shipping charge.  If you don't mind a substitution, you can have it a lot cheaper.  This resistor is 50 cents, and all you do is stick it in a vice and crush the ceramic case and out pops a suitable resistor.

   Stackpole CB5JB18R0-ND

Another way to go is to pick up this type and use a dremel wirewheel to knock the ceramic coating off.

   Vishay PAC300001809FAC000 

Either method will yield an 18 ohm resistor suitable for replacing your open resistor.  The good news is, Digikey has shipping of around $3 for small orders and no handling charge.  For less than $5 total, you can have a couple of spare resistors as well.

gunrunnerjohn:  Thank you for your help.  I have a analog multimeter with a reading across the resister of '0'.  Not infinity.  I miss read the meter.  So what do you think?  It's a fairly new engine and I like it, but if it's the circuit board, I am not going to replace it.

First off, what range do you have the ohmmeter set to?  18 ohms on the 100k scale will look like 0 ohms.  It may be difficult to accurately measure a low resistance depending on exactly what meter you have.

FYI, if the engine is less than a year old, it should still be under warranty.

The multimeter is a cheap one, GB instruments GMT-312.  I set it at 1 ohm and read the meter.  It read 1 across the resister.  Any thoughts?

If this is your meter, the only range is the 1K range.  If it's reading 1 ohm, you are reading a short circuit.  The resistor should be reading near the 20 ohm mark on the green scale.

GunrunnerJohn:  That is the meter.  It reads all the way to the right.  At 0 across the resister in the OHM mode.  I put the probes on each end of the resister.  Am I doing that correctly?

Disconnect the smoke unit and see if it still reads zero.  Also, you might try measuring some resistor and seeing if the meter is actually working correctly.  If the resistance is really zero, that's a problem.

I did read another resister and it read 0.  What do you think of this plan.  I will disconnect the smoke unit from the circuit board and connect it to track power.  I would set the track power at the off position and slowly raise the voltage and see it the resister gets hot.  If it doesn't, I received a bad smoke unit.  Do you think that will work?

Nope, the resistor only gets power when the locomotive is moving.

Yup, lion chief engines do not turn on the smoke unit till it is in motion to protect the element. I have an engine with a similar problem, the 2-4-2 scout, but uses a modified low end smoke unit Lionel has used since about 1967, it appears that the smoke chamber some how shorts out the smoke unit with mine as it warms up. does not make much sense to me. Maybe that is what has happned here, the smoke unit is shorted so no smoke?

I was able to test the smoke element by disconnecting it from the circuit board and applying low voltage and it smoked.  So I guess it's the circuit board.

Does Lionel sell the board and at what price.  The engine is 6 months old, but I have taken it apart.  Would Lionel still cover it on warranty?

...so I removed the plunger and spring - fairly easy to do. The loco works great, no clicking or hesitation and goes well even at slow speeds.

But I'm really perplexed - the plunger/piston/spring assembly does not appear to provide much friction or resistance which would literally stop the loco at slow speeds. Does anyone know if there is an adjustment or solution in the event I would want to utilize the smoke feature? Thanks.

I did not find any way to adjust the lift on the piston.  I think there are two possible solutions.  One is to bend the lift rod down a little.  I tried this and achieved some improvement.  The lift rod metal and doesn't bent easily.  Plus, the mechanism is fragile, so you can't really get a good grip on it.  The second possible solution is to sand off about 1/32 of an inch off the piston top.

 Just to restate the problem.  The piston hits the bottom of the smoke unit when it is in the top position and creates the click and the hesitation.  Therefore, we are trying to prevent it from hitting.  I tried to shim up the smoke unit, but the engine boiler fits tightly over the smoke unit and will not seat in it's proper position with the shim in place.

So I called my local hobby shop which is an authorized Lionel station to check about bringing my engine in for warranty service.  He informed me that since I bought the engine on Amazon that voided the warranty and I should have bought it from an authorized dealer.  Well as a starter set the cost is more than the unit is worth, so no go, no smoke.

Many dealers shun repairs on items not purchased from their stores for obvious reasons.

Many items sold on amazon a really come from other vendors. I'd look closer at your receipt to make sure your warranty is or isn't valid.

You could also email Lionel and see if they would offer you an RA for warranty repair.

kiehlclifford posted:

So I called my local hobby shop which is an authorized Lionel station to check about bringing my engine in for warranty service.  He informed me that since I bought the engine on Amazon that voided the warranty and I should have bought it from an authorized dealer.  Well as a starter set the cost is more than the unit is worth, so no go, no smoke.

I find that extremely hard to believe as Amazon has been one of the prime outlets for the sale of Lionel's licensed items.

Give them a call in Concord.