lionchief plus 2.0 failing to sell? people losing interest in semi scale?

Well, when the price differential between LC+ 2.0 and Legacy starts to close significantly, maybe folks are biting the bullet and buying the Legacy stuff.

I think that Lionel is still figuring out what exactly the LC2.0 line is supposed to be.

While there have been some obvious duds, like the ones you mentioned above, there have certainly been some home runs. The first that comes to mind is the LC2.0 is the 0-6-0Ts (I would not be surprised if they were re-cataloged soon by Lionel). Likewise, the Berkshires, RS3, and GP7s all seemed to have been received well.

I think traditional sized O gauge is slowly fading away.  I think a lot of people that were into traditional postwar sized trains are becoming Realistic Fantasy Lovers. OGR Ed Boyle @Ed Boyle in the Collector's gallery used that new term for O gauge operators that like scale sized realistic looking trains but are not put off by non-prototypical road names and fantasy road names on scale sized cars and locomotives.

You have a lot of options for scale sized trains that operate on O-36 track.  I noticed that once I started using scale sized locomotives and freight cars that postwar stuff just looked small and weird. I sold off 90% of the traditional sized trains I that had and now I only purchase scale sized trains. But as a Realistic Fantasy Lover, I am okay with scale trains with non-prototypical road names as well as scale sized fantasy trains.

I would be curious to know the source of these sales figures.  That is information only Lionel has.

As far as what gets cataloged v what is made, this is just the new O gauge sales model:  it doesn’t cost much capital to put out some drawings based on prior tooling and see what the sales interest is.  The expectation may be that a substantial portion of what is in the catalog is not made.

Finally, there is a lot of economic uncertainty out there right now.  When the cost of the weekly groceries goes up 20-30%, and the cost of fuel doubles, this will have an impact on discretionary purchases.

Lionel's introduction of the LionChief series was a recognition that a more current control technology was appropriate. TMCC/Legacy is based on a radio frequency technology first pioneered as a product by Motorola in the late 50's/early '60s. In recognition of the TMCC embedded base, Lionel has introduced the BASE3 product which covers all the user bases.

Lower the price.  Watch how fast it sells.

John

I love semi-scale and smaller curves. Hence the term “toy trains”.  Hopefully much more will be produced. JohnA

I bought a couple of the 0-6-0T engines for a couple hundred, that was what I thought LC+ 2.0 was supposed to be.  Inexpensive but feature laden products.

If traditional sized units are becoming less commonly offered by manufacturers, I'm not quite certain that it's because the popularity of traditional units is going away.  It may be because there are tons and tons of used traditional units for sale, in great condition, at very low prices, and so folks like me just aren't going to pay $60 and up for a brand new car (or several hundred for a brand new loco) just because it is made to scale.

I think that although dyed in the wool scale lovers are numerous in the membership of this board, they do not necessarily reflect the great "unwashed" crowd of O gaugers who are just in it for fun and are happy to run traditional size in the basement with their kids.  And, I would think that maybe 90% of all of the people who have an up and running O gauge layout in the basement have never heard of York and would not (or could not) spend the money to go.

As was pointed out to me by a someone here last month, the majority of the members of this board are upscale serious train folks, willing to spend considerable money on the hobby.

Just something to think about.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock you do have a point. I also think that the glut of 80 years of postwar traditional sized trains does contribute to the low value of traditional trains. In a sense, Lionel’s biggest competitor in the traditional size train market is Lionel!

I don’t know your frame of reference.  The ones they actually bring to market sell-through. The last LC+ 2.0 offerings sold through completely.  GG1 - gone, 0-6-0T -gone, RS-3, almost gone, Berkshires - gone except for Disney.  Baby K4 gone, F-3s sold through almost immediately with the exception of the big set with Santa Fe F-3s.  The policy is if preorders don’t meet the minimum then they don’t make them. Several Acelas never happened.  

I also believe that Ryan makes errors in what gets made and what quantity they produce.

I've said in the past to traditional and "semi-scale" collectors, just go to a meet. There is so much postwar and MPC stuff it will make your head spin. Mannyrock nailed it.

Personally, I'm not going to pay even half or a third of scale prices for new non-scale trains.

I also have zero interest in the fantasy schemes. A locomotive or piece of rolling stock in a road name that didn't originally roster it ... Maybe. But cab forwards in Daylight paint? An Acela in Warbonnet red and silver? No thanks.

Craftech has a point though. I think the sweet spot for prices is lower.

First: Where do we get our info that LC+ is not selling; -- from the guy who regularly hangs out at the train shop who heard it from the brother-in-law of his neighbor's cousin??? Last I knew Lionel is privately held and does not release sales, production, or any other relevant figures. Or is only to the CFO's neighbor's cousin?

Second: While I tend to agree with Mr. Lombardo, except motor fuel has never doubled in price and in fact has been slowly coming down, and according to the gov't. figures just released for June groceries have been going up 11%-12% not 20%-30%. Please let's keep our facts accurate.

Finally, as many have alluded to, I feel that most of LC+ stuff has been re-runs done with old tooling and very little with any new tooling. In the MTH heyday there were always some fresh offerings in the RailKing line.

Total Fantasy schemes... sure.

I have to agree about not a chance of me spending a couple of grand on a Daylight Cab Forward or a War Bonnet Acela.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

In the MTH heyday there were always some fresh offerings in the RailKing line.

I agree, I miss the old MTH and all the neat stuff they turned out.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Total Fantasy schemes... sure.

I have to agree about not a chance of me spending a couple of grand on a Daylight Cab Forward or a War Bonnet Acela.

I would love it if Lionel produced a Legacy Phantom!

@rplst8 posted:

I've said in the past to traditional and "semi-scale" collectors, just go to a meet. There is so much postwar and MPC stuff it will make your head spin. Mannyrock nailed it.

Personally, I'm not going to pay even half or a third of scale prices for new non-scale trains.

I also have zero interest in the fantasy schemes. A locomotive or piece of rolling stock in a road name that didn't originally roster it ... Maybe. But cab forwards in Daylight paint? An Acela in Warbonnet red and silver? No thanks.

Craftech has a point though. I think the sweet spot for prices is lower.

I can understand why scale fantasy and non prototypical road names will not appeal to everyone. But I am curious: does a Warbonnet Acela diminish your enjoyment of prototypically correct scale trains if both are offered by Lionel at the same time?

Yet another thoughtful and thought provoking post. 

I am a fan of Stout and have been watching a bidding on their "trains" for the past 3 years or so when I got back into the hobby. Take a look at the hammer prices on the post war trains - July 14th auction. Remember to add 19% and then $30 in shipping. Not sure I would agree people are losing interest in semi-scale. Appears to be pretty strong prices for trains that are pushing 70 years old.

If the question is more toward Lionel's new semi-scale (traditional scale) and scale offerings - that may be an entirely different question. All I have done with Lionel is looked at their new catalogs but never bought new. Admittedly some of their steamers are simply incredible and would be fun to own.

Over the past year and a half I have transitioned from semi-scale to scale 3 rail, selling off much of my used semi-scale Lionel and MTH pieces. I do have a few pieces left which are destined for under the Christmas Tree layouts. I am unlikely to buy any new or used semi-scale (unless by accident). For that matter my scale fleet is nearly complete, so that buying is also tapering off. With 3 MTH engines on order those may very well be the last new engines to be added.

Just an observation regarding MTH equipment,  it gets to be an interesting purchase decision when some of the used PS1 and PS2 premier engines are being sold for "close to new" pricing when replacing electronics are factored in. Given the newer engines typically have far more detail than the earlier types -  why buy used? Of course one may have to wait for a while for a PS3 version to be offered.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Total Fantasy schemes... sure.

I want one!

Last I remember the OP was going to open a train store with his grandfather i think.  So he may have gotten some inside info from lionel.

This is all speculation.

Rusty

To me, LC+ hits my sweet spot and 2.0 is extra expense for functions and detail that aren’t particularly relevant. I have three LC+ engines. Two have Blue Tooth.  The remote uncoupling feature was operationally a Great Leap Forward over LC and the level of detail looks good to my eye. My visitors and I have fun with voice control occasionally but the LC+ Crew Talk is pretty lame.   I rarely run my conventional or PS engines these days.
LC+ seems to be gone from online retailer inventory. I almost never see it on the For Sale Forum or the bay so I’m happy and satisfied to have what I have.
YMMV.

Mark

@aussteve posted:

Last I remember the OP was going to open a train store with his grandfather i think.  So he may have gotten some inside info from lionel.

no i have not gotten info from lionel

my original post is speculation and things like prices and cancellations i have noticed

@Rusty Traque posted:

This is all speculation.

Rusty

yes

things i noticed my self and i kinda pieced together a speculation

I would prefer to see more PW tooled Locomotives resurrected as Lionchief 2.0 with modern can motors.  We have the GG1, Berkshire which oddly appeared once, GPs etc.  There are also some cool MPC era variations of Postwar classics like SD40s, Dash 8, etc.  All are perfect for lower priced traditional offerings.  I have never like the overseas tooled/designed traditional offerings as much.  Like the Berkshire and small Hudson.

@Rusty Traque posted:

This is all speculation.

Rusty

So what, it is fun.

I'm headed to the Greenburg show in Oaks on Saturday which is an event geared to the family and casual hobbyist.  I'm sure I'll still see the same thing I saw regularly prior to the pandemic - numerous dealers selling tradition items at prices most families today cannot afford to pay.   Big dealers such as Charles Ro sell new traditional sized rolling stock from Lionel at anywhere from $35.95 to $61.50 ($122.95 for a two-pack set).  For those prices you can buy new or like new scale items on the secondary markets.   The question I always have is "who the heck would pay those prices for that?  And that's not to mention the overwhelming amount of new, old stock you can get at shows for $20 or less.

-Greg

The problem for me is the price..... there's very little difference in price between LC 2.0 and legacy. Once again Lionel has missed the boat on what should be a more affordable line

@Brian DeFazio posted:

The problem for me is the price..... there's very little difference in price between LC 2.0 and legacy. Once again Lionel has missed the boat on what should be a more affordable line

Bingo. The engines need more detail@ the current prices or be $100-200 cheaper.

@Brian DeFazio posted:

The problem for me is the price..... there's very little difference in price between LC 2.0 and legacy. Once again Lionel has missed the boat on what should be a more affordable line

Spot on. MTH Imperial & Scale were ideal for this market, good detail and affordable prices. The recent big boy's from the LC2 & Imperial lines were similar offerings but had a significant price gap.

The only people who know any of this info for sure are working for Lionel.
It seems to me that, at least for the first couple years, the line did okay. The berkshires, 0-6-0T, and big boy all seemed to sell well. In case it isn't selling well, I have 1 big guess: price.
The price difference between LC+ 2.0 and Legacy is, in most situations, not all that big. From the latest catalog, a GP20 is $500. You can purchase a legacy diesel for that price from most dealers. In addition, for the prices that are being charged, one would expect better detail. MTH Railking is cheaper, and in many situations, has superior detail.
Again, this is pure speculation. For all I know LC+ 2.0 could be hogging space on shelves, or it could be flying off them.

For a perspective on LionChief, consider this. Incandescent light bulbs provide light, but what are you currently using to light up your house?

@The Pullman posted:

The only people who know any of this info for sure are working for Lionel.
It seems to me that, at least for the first couple years, the line did okay. The berkshires, 0-6-0T, and big boy all seemed to sell well. In case it isn't selling well, I have 1 big guess: price.
The price difference between LC+ 2.0 and Legacy is, in most situations, not all that big. From the latest catalog, a GP20 is $500. You can purchase a legacy diesel for that price from most dealers. In addition, for the prices that are being charged, one would expect better detail. MTH Railking is cheaper, and in many situations, has superior detail.
Again, this is pure speculation. For all I know LC+ 2.0 could be hogging space on shelves, or it could be flying off them.

The Pullman,

    You must be consistent when comparing prices, list to list, discounted to discounted. Locomotive size is important too comparing a LC+2.0 Big Boy to a Legacy Mogul is misleading. I am total scale buyer so I do not intend on buying any of the LC+2.0 Locomotives but after seeing the small K4, 0-6-0T I’d say they were a success for Lionel (also by reading posts of praises on the forum)

JohnB

@Madockawando posted:

I can understand why scale fantasy and non prototypical road names will not appeal to everyone. But I am curious: does a Warbonnet Acela diminish your enjoyment of prototypically correct scale trains if both are offered by Lionel at the same time?

No, it doesn't affect my enjoyment at all. I was actually going to make a suggestion that Lionel focus solely on scale offerings but offer more fantasy schemes. Since the traditional and "realistic fantasy lovers" do not care about what is prototypically correct, and will buy pretty much anything Lionel offers, flashy eye catching paint schemes are probably the way to go. This would allow them to do larger runs of scale items and hopefully increase their ROI on new injection molds and dies.

@Ray Lombardo posted:

I would be curious to know the source of these sales figures.  That is information only Lionel has.

As far as what gets cataloged v what is made, this is just the new O gauge sales model:  it doesn’t cost much capital to put out some drawings based on prior tooling and see what the sales interest is.  The expectation may be that a substantial portion of what is in the catalog is not made.

Finally, there is a lot of economic uncertainty out there right now.  When the cost of the weekly groceries goes up 20-30%, and the cost of fuel doubles, this will have an impact on discretionary purchases.

Yep, totally agree. Where's the data?

The reality? Nobody knows for sure because they don't tell. Most, and I stress most, is just guessing.

EDIT: Also agree on the comments about some of the more popular LC+ 2.0 offerings. Those 0-6-0's flew off the virtual shelves. I'd also submit that the earlier NW2's were wildly popular. They were LC+ (prior to the inception of LC+ 2.0).

@rplst8 posted:

No, it doesn't affect my enjoyment at all. I was actually going to make a suggestion that Lionel focus solely on scale offerings but offer more fantasy schemes. Since the traditional and "realistic fantasy lovers" do not care about what is prototypically correct, and will buy pretty much anything Lionel offers, flashy eye catching paint schemes are probably the way to go. This would allow them to do larger runs of scale items and hopefully increase their ROI on new injection molds and dies.

Agree 100%.

Of the items the OP listed, how many did he pre-order?  That's the problem.  Not enough pre-orders.  I'm thinking the current economy has a lot to do with some of these items not being made as well. This is by no means pointed at Codi but in general if no one is ordering things don't get made. 

I also agree with what others have said, we don't have the data so we don't know and are all speculating.

@Greg Houser posted:

I'm headed to the Greenburg show in Oaks on Saturday which is an event geared to the family and casual hobbyist.  I'm sure I'll still see the same thing I saw regularly prior to the pandemic - numerous dealers selling tradition items at prices most families today cannot afford to pay.

Don't forget to drop by the NPOG club layout and say hi!

@BOB WALKER posted:

For a perspective on LionChief, consider this. Incandescent light bulbs provide light, but what are you currently using to light up your house?

Uhh... no.  The LC+ 2.0 that I see is all LED lighting.