Lionel 11711 Santa Fe F3's from 1991

Take a look at the Indian head on the side of the 18115 "B".  Are the feathers pointing toward the rear roof exhaust fans or away from the fans?

 

 This one is WRONG.

 

 

 

 

This one is correct.

The first reason you brought up is the primary reason, hence why more 18115's exist more than 18103's.

Thats true Thomas, but I remember it had something to do with the logo and the "water" on one of them

The feathers face correctly on the 18115 b-unit.

 

It was the 18129 b-unit that had the feathers facing the wrong way.

Lionel re-issued the 18136 b-unit to correct for this mistake.

These b-units are for the 18130/18134/18136 Santa Fe "2343" series.

 

Top to bottom 18128, 18134, 18129, 18136 

This set had nothing to do with the 11711/18103/18115 Santa Fe series.

 

The 18115 was sort of a generic Santa Fe b-unit as it has no number printed on the shell, and can be used with any of the Santa Fe a-units with silver trucks.

 

Thanks Benny! Now its all coming back to me, it was about the 2343's because those were the first issues with the yellow stripe going up the nose, and I remember the complaints about the feathers. For some reason I thought it had to do with the early 90's issues.

If I recall, 18103 was a Christmas Stocking Stuffer.  I was told by my LHS that only 1/5th of these add-on units were made relative to the total number of ABA sets.  Hence why the 18115 was produced (due to the number of complaints about not being able to get one, and the aftermarket price).  I was also told they added the "Water" marking to make it more difficult for folks to "counterfit" 18103's.  Back-in-the-day, the 8103's were going for $500.  This was probably at the peak of the market.  I even seem to recall my LHS telling me a number of folks were using the entire set for "speculation" purposes.  My how things have changed (for the better, IMHO.)  Now I've seen the 8103 B units for $75 or less.  

 

 

 Hello SantaFeJim.....

 

 Did the Santa Fe yellow bonnets have yellow feathers and the blue bonnets have blue feathers on the sides of the "B" units ?  My Williams blue bonnet F-3 "B" has the red feathers but is that correct ?  I thought the blue and yellow bonnets should have the blue and yellow feathers and the red feathers for the warbonnet (red) ?

 

Tiffany

Tiffany,

NO, the Indian colors did not change for the "Yellow Bonnets" or the "Blue Bonnets".

This is exactly my recollection as well. I remember finding a very small dealer with several 18103s - I was able to get one for msrp after their market price had gone to about $400. Some also thought the 18103 had extra value not only because it was scarce, but because of the "factory defect" of the wrong facing warbonnet logo. 

 

Ironically, after Lionel made the second add-on B unit, it did nothing to cure the problem of so few 18103s being produced. All it did was to add the requirement for yet another B unit in order for collectors to have a "complete" set, which now required the A-B-B-B-A. 

 

 

Hello SantaFeJim....

 

Thank you,smile

Tiffany

We as toy train enthusiasts have essentially "moved on" from those MPC/LTI days when Lionel and its dealer network played games with SKU's that were under-produced.  In addition to F3 B-units, you can add vista dome (usually regular size -- not full-length) passenger cars and diner cars (i.e., SP Daylight and N&W Powhattan Arrow) that were also part of the dealer Christmas Stocking Stuffer packs that often garnered premium price-tags.

 

VADarthDad's recollection is accurate indeed, in that those 18103's were going for $500 VERY shortly after they hit the street.  A classic case of supply-and-demand -- although somewhat artificially manipulated.  Back in the day, dealers often held on to their stock for a few weeks (i.e., claiming they were sold-out on phone inquiries)... knowing very well that folks would start getting anxious after hearing too many "sorry, they're gone" responses.  Then a few weeks later those dealers would magically "get another shipment from Lionel" (LOL!), but the price would be -- yep, you guessed it -- $500.  

 

Not the most consumer-friendly of times, for sure.  And the fact that now most enthusiasts can't even give that stuff away from that era (much less attempt to get any premium dollars for them)... should be a lesson to us all that if things seem/smell/feel amiss, they often are. 

 

The collector mentality may still have its following of sorts today, but I think most of us have grown wise to the antics that are often too common-place when items are tagged as RARE.  I can't even remember when I last saw a dealer ad in the magazines that had a price listed as "CALL".  And back in those days, that was a VERY common practice since the prices on those "highly sought-after collectibles" were so volatile.  Today, I'd wager the number of folks who would might pick up the phone to call a dealer if they saw that in an ad would be far and few between.  A few dealers tried that with Lionel's VL Big Boy... and look what happened... they still have them for sale.   

 

David