Lionel 18" Aluminum Passenger Cars Schedule Slipping Again

Takes a lot of patience for sure.  When was the last ETA prior to this latest change?

The most frustrating part of the puzzle is when the slippage gets posted less than a month or two out.  You gotta think SOMEBODY at Lionel Stateside would have known sooner about the cars' production status and whether those cars were gonna ship (or not ship) by their ETA.  But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Then of course, there's the debated question as to whether these will even be made at all.  Lionel recatlg'd 4 aluminum 18" passenger sets after canceling the others, but all the excitement is now centered around the 21" ABS models.  Is ANYBODY gonna buy the 18" UP set knowing a 21" UP set (in ABS) is to be catalog'd in 2016 Vol 1 after being "previewed" in 2015 Vol 2?

Only time will tell.

The irony here is the last aluminum cars -- albeit 15" models -- turned out beautifully (i.e., the recently delivered NYSS Texas Special).  And the NYSS Pennsy's have reportedly just shipped to dealers... which should make Pennsy enthusiasts very happy too.  Of course, both sets were SERIOUSLY delayed.

David

David,

October

JR

Sounds to me like aluminum cars are really easy to produce I ;the manufacturer, just need you the customer to think its complex.. Its soooo easy there is almost no money in it. So other more profitable projects are a priority!!!  Besides  I can run them out sooo fast it would make your head spin and drive price down ,, that's bad for business!

David posted:

"Is ANYBODY gonna buy the 18" UP set knowing a 21" UP set (in ABS) is to be catalog'd in 2016 Vol 1 after being "previewed" in 2015 Vol 2?"

The answer is a resounding YES! There are many more people who can only use 18 inch or shorter cars... way more than can use 21 inch cars.

There are still many more people that frequent my local hobby shop where the 15 inch cars are in demand.

It’s only on this forum (and a few others) that we see the scale minded user (and that is ok too) where if we were to take a pulse of the hobby from this forum we would come to the (incorrect) conclusion that the majority of the hobby is scale oriented... which we all know is not accurate.

15, 18, and 21 it’s all good. Think if them as a tool. If you need a hammer, you pick a hammer, not a screw driver.  At least most people think that way. Obviously some people try to shoe horn scale length cars onto a less then optimal layout.

Charlie

I think that ship has sailed, boys.

Charlie, no argument there... I posted the other day that 21" cars are best for folks who have sufficient real estate.  My personal preference is 18" passenger cars.  But all sizes (and styles) definitely have their place.  

The 21" cars are "new", so there's a natural interest to see Lionel succeed with them.  But the pendulum may sway back and forth a bit until the dust settles.

David

JR, that's my point.  So here we are at the end of September... And Lionel moves the date out one more month.  But how many times has that happened already?

If the cars are now scheduled to ship in November (i.e., from North Carolina to dealers), one would be inclined to think that they're already finished (or very close to it) and set to load into containers shipping out of China in October.  So somebody here in Lionel Stateside should KNOW that is gonna happen.  If not, then the November ship-date to dealers is just a wing-and-a-prayer at best.  

Absent any more authoritative information, all we can do is wait it out.

David

Absolutely correct. Reading the "frequent posters" on the Forum gives a bit of a skewed impression. People who will run 21" cars are a very small minority. The vast majority of operators don't have huge layouts and aren't going to run anything longer than the 15" cars. Personally, I don't know a single operator who can run 21" cars. No doubt Lionel will soon be offering plastic passenger cars in 18" and 15" lengths, now that - regrettably - aluminum is fading from the scene.

What makes you think 15" or 18" (72') passenger cars aren't scale?

Its a fact many railroads never owned 84' (21") cars. Of those that did, most acquired them near or after the steam era ended.

Joe  

Not yet.  Isn't GGD still producing 21" aluminum passenger cars?  Last I heard they are coming forth with some obscure deep south passenger train, probably to be followed by the Sunset Limited in Budd extrusions.  Always available with deep flanges and huge couplers, to be Lionel-compatible?

All is not lost.

Notwithstanding the fact that 6-20000 set are 18 inch cars and the catalog preview set are 21inch cars, the sets are both different. The 6-20000 set is meant to be " The City of Los Angeles train from the mid 1950s , whereas the 21 in cars are meant to be the UP excursion train. The consists are somewhat different both in car types included, car names and decoration. In short, they are two different UP trains and if you are a UP Fan well its very simple! You need them both!

Why are these passenger cars not made out of actual Stainless Steel?

Andrew

I think you are right on all counts. I don't think that Scott Mann has given any hint of going over to ABS cars and long may that remain the case. 

Good question. I assume without knowing that aluminum is much cheaper and (maybe more important) that it will take a painted finish better than stainless steel. I do know that depending on the exact material composition stainless steel will corrode especially if exposed to salt in the air.

However, I think that the ship has sailed so far as Lionel doing any more 21" metal cars is concerned. My guess is that they had cost and manufacturing issues with these and that their financial bottom line is improved by using ABS. Apart from that however I understand that modeling the UP excursion* cars in aluminum is problematic because the ptototypes are ACF built and have riveting (count 'em!) that can't be replicated in extruded aluminum.

I'd really prefer to see the ABS cars with metal panels to replicate the stainless steel but I guess that there would be cost issues there too.

* G.D. autocorrect made this "execution" in my original post!

Minton Cronkhite had some cars done in Monel metal, which is close to stainless. Other than that, I have not heard of anyone trying to make any models in stainless.  The metal itself is not expensive, but extruding it would be way out of the ballpark, cost-wise.  And then the cars would be really heavy.

Plastic is probably the best medium if you like plastic models.  For me, aluminum extrusions are the only way.  They polish up like stainless, are relatively easy to cut windows into, and look pretty good.  My problem is that I own way too many of them.

Charles Ro is showing a 1 month slip to December for the Lionel Pennsylvania 4 pack set, this looks like a grim outcome. This set was originally in the 2013 signature catalog and we are approaching the 3 year delay anniversary. Does anyone know why these sets are even in the latest catalog?

I saw on a post from Nassau showing the 2 car Pennsylvania 18" aluminum set was shipping from Lionel to dealers last week or this coming week. That is a step in the right direction. I hope to see the SP set soon.

Joe

If my 2 car Trail Blazer add on pack are any indication, the flawed aluminum extrusions that supposedly delayed the NYSS cars never prevented the manufacturer from using the extrusions.  Both roofs have defects that no amount of paint would cover.  Maybe it's nit picking but not when MSRP on 2 cars is $400.  Never Again, Lionel!

Bruce

Does Williams by Bachmann still manufacture aluminum passenger cars ?

    Bill T. 

Because you cannot extrude stainless like aluminum. The extrusion dies have a great cost advantage over stamping or roll form dies. 

Really sounds like setting up and running the 18 inch passenger cars is a capacity / timing issue. 

I will wait and be patient and run my K-line cars until then.

I am just confused if they are going to be made at all? 

Looking at the business case, it appears there is a big enough market for both.

I doubt we'll ever see them produced.

Maybe it it would be for the best....

Bruce, that's very unfortunate.  The Texas Special 15-inchers had shipped when I made that post, and all the feedback seemed positive for those.  And the pictures posted here looked stunning.  Sorry to hear about problems with the Pennsy's.

David

Can anyone post pictures of the delivered Pennsylvania 2-pack?