Lionel 180 - Watt Power House delivery schedule - what other options

15 volt should work fine for Legacy  &  Lion Chief  Plus !!!  Just make sure it has Instant Volage Protection Circuit Breaker !!!!  To protect your Legacy  Engine Boards !!!'

Is there any other circuit protection is available other then the TMCC DIRECT LOCKON 6-34120?

I just saw the update on the shipping schedule today as well.  Saying I'm disappointed is an understatement.  I have designed my layout around 4 of these.  Currently I have 2 CW-80's and am pretty underpowered.  

The most frustrating part is that they seem to continually "slide" the date.  If there is anyone from Lionel reading this, my advice is to find a realistic goal that can actually be met.  Please.  It really doesn't matter if that date is tomorrow, Sept. 2017, or Dec. 2020.

Sorry for the rant...Now on to finding other options...

John Graser posted:

Is there any other circuit protection is available other then the TMCC DIRECT LOCKON 6-34120?

There are other options, but the PSX-AC is as least as good possibly slightly better than the PS-180s (which are very highly rated). Never have seen or used a TMCC direct Lockon, but I use the PSX-AC's with my 2 PH-180s. The PSX-ACs also have voltage spike protection and quite a few other options that you can use for different things like alarms, LEDs for on, off, tripped, etc. and also has jumpers for different amperage trip settings. If you choose to use the options some extra parts will be needed like the LEDs, Sonalert alarm, etc., but the board has the capabilities built in. (You probably can't tell that I kinda like these things, can you?)

The shipping date change is also very disappointing to me. I wanted 2 more PH-180s, which I guess I will now be waiting on for at 9 more months at minimum. And AFAIK, there is no other brick available matching the performance of a PH-180 in voltage, power or their breakers. It is really a great power source, maybe the best depending on your application, IMO. It's a shame they can't keep a steady supply of these available.

I can wait as the two I have will tide me along so not a terrible thing for me. For someone needing them now I imagine about the only thing available would be the used market, ebay, auctions, for OGR sale forum here, etc. Maybe a post on the Wanted to buy forum would be a good start. Might be someone changing scales, getting out of the hobby or something like that.

Customer service is a thing of the past.

Is it time for me to start selling mine at a huge profit?

If Lionel can't make them over younder, maybe Lionel should find someone to make them in the USA

Brent

Why do these delays occur on such integral parts to their ecosystem?   When I wanted to go into command, it took 2.5 years for my 990 to show up. 

Someone needs to tell me how this ship isn't taking on water...

Most likely there is a component that is not available to build them and they did not do a last time buy to continue making them.  Now there will be a redesign and it will need to go through UL approvals again.  It's a transformer so it shouldn't be to complicated to do this.  Most likely this is what happened with Legacy a few years ago.

NCE makes an 18 volt AC 10 amp transformer for DCC systems. I bet that would work. You could add the PSX-AC circuit protection. This would be a more expensive solution with a larger footprint, but it might actually be a better system. Just a thought if you are in a bind. 

Or, GRJ and I could start selling our PH 180s for $300 each.  I probably over bought last year when I found some...

If you are into construction, the CW-80 has a good transformer in it and is reported to be capable of at least 8 amps at 18 vac. It would be tempting to junk some of the old ones with the common(ed) A and B terminals and add a PSX-AC to a chassis maybe holding a couple of them.

I cancelled my order for the Lionel GW-180.  Pretty absurd that they can't even tell me what month to expect it.  So, I waited, and waited, and waited.  Kept checking the web for deals and viola!  Legacy Station sold me a brand new MTH Z-4000 for $367 last week (free shipping too)!!!!!!!  Brand spanking new.  Lionel wanted $270 for the GW-180 that doesn't even come close to the Z-4000.  I don't even think you can find a used Z-4000 for that price.  And that's not a typo.  It was only $367.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, be patient and get the Z!  

A cottage industry perhaps?

How about it John - use your surplus to design and get approval for a similar but better product and put a new one out there!

Beat 'Big L' at their own game....

cjack posted:

If you are into construction, the CW-80 has a good transformer in it and is reported to be capable of at least 8 amps at 18 vac. It would be tempting to junk some of the old ones with the common(ed) A and B terminals and add a PSX-AC to a chassis maybe holding a couple of them.

If the CW-80 was rated at 8 amps, wouldn't it be a 144 Watt power supply? I believe it is rated at 80 watts, correct? How does this work? I think the PH 180 is actually rated at 180 watts, which would equate to a 10 amp rating at 18 VAC. Is there something I am missing?

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

I cancelled my order for the Lionel GW-180.  Pretty absurd that they can't even tell me what month to expect it.  So, I waited, and waited, and waited.  Kept checking the web for deals and viola!  Legacy Station sold me a brand new MTH Z-4000 for $367 last week (free shipping too)!!!!!!!  Brand spanking new.  Lionel wanted $270 for the GW-180 that doesn't even come close to the Z-4000.  I don't even think you can find a used Z-4000 for that price.  And that's not a typo.  It was only $367.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, be patient and get the Z!  

For the Z4000, you get 2 180 watt outputs and a couple of lower voltage outputs. You also get the nice chassis and meters. However, dollars to power, $367 is a lot to get what you were trying to do with two PH 180's. If you need the handles, meters and accessory outputs, that makes up for it, but not if you were going to hook the PH 180's to a direct lockon or DCS TIU.

If you were going to pay $209 for a GW-180, then I would definitely go with the Z4000 at $367. I woul also take two Z4000s over a ZW-L at around $800.

The MTH Z4000 and ZW-L are not the same.  The price delta for the ZW-L is that it is essentially four ph180s and four powermasters with handles and meters.

Thanks everyone for the suggestion. I'll just get a  some circuit breaker protection for now.  I'll just hold off on any more engines until I can resolve getting a new transformer.

Miken posted:

The MTH Z4000 and ZW-L are not the same.  The price delta for the ZW-L is that it is essentially four ph180s and four powermasters with handles and meters.

 

Yes, but the ZW-L limits the total output to 620 watts, not the 720+ watts you would get by buying two Z4000s or four PH 180's. Choosing the ZW-L depends more on your application, but not from a pure power perspective.

George S posted:

cjack posted:

If you are into construction, the CW-80 has a good transformer in it and is reported to be capable of at least 8 amps at 18 vac. It would be tempting to junk some of the old ones with the common(ed) A and B terminals and add a PSX-AC to a chassis maybe holding a couple of them.

If the CW-80 was rated at 8 amps, wouldn't it be a 144 Watt power supply? I believe it is rated at 80 watts, correct? How does this work? I think the PH 180 is actually rated at 180 watts, which would equate to a 10 amp rating at 18 VAC. Is there something I am missing?

Actually I missed explaining that Dale M did a load test on the CW-80 transformer brick itself and found that he could actually get I think 10 amps out of it, so I said 8 amps just to be safe. It's suggested that the regulating board, etc. is the limiting factor in the CW-80.

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

I cancelled my order for the Lionel GW-180.  Pretty absurd that they can't even tell me what month to expect it.  So, I waited, and waited, and waited.  Kept checking the web for deals and viola!  Legacy Station sold me a brand new MTH Z-4000 for $367 last week (free shipping too)!!!!!!!  Brand spanking new.  Lionel wanted $270 for the GW-180 that doesn't even come close to the Z-4000.  I don't even think you can find a used Z-4000 for that price.  And that's not a typo.  It was only $367.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, be patient and get the Z!  

The Z-4000 is a good transformer and good that MTH sells a few more. One thing you miss is the emergency power shutdown from the handheld but at least all the engines stop as I understand it.

cjack posted:

George S posted:

cjack posted:

If you are into construction, the CW-80 has a good transformer in it and is reported to be capable of at least 8 amps at 18 vac. It would be tempting to junk some of the old ones with the common(ed) A and B terminals and add a PSX-AC to a chassis maybe holding a couple of them.

If the CW-80 was rated at 8 amps, wouldn't it be a 144 Watt power supply? I believe it is rated at 80 watts, correct? How does this work? I think the PH 180 is actually rated at 180 watts, which would equate to a 10 amp rating at 18 VAC. Is there something I am missing?

Actually I missed explaining that Dale M did a load test on the CW-80 transformer brick itself and found that he could actually get I think 10 amps out of it, so I said 8 amps just to be safe. It's suggested that the regulating board, etc. is the limiting factor in the CW-80.

Interesting... Just to be clear, the CW-80 does not have a separate brick like the GW-180 or the MTH z1000. You would need to crack it open and bypass the electronics. I wonder if Dale or anyone compared the internal transformer coil to the one in the PH180 brick?

From a pure cost perspective though, it's hard to beat the PH180 if they are available.  You don't need to do any de-construction either. I picked up two more last year when I heard there was a shortage.

KenG posted:

Most likely there is a component that is not available to build them and they did not do a last time buy to continue making them.  Now there will be a redesign and it will need to go through UL approvals again.  It's a transformer so it shouldn't be to complicated to do this.  Most likely this is what happened with Legacy a few years ago.

The story we got previously from Lionel was that the new PH180 would be a complete redesign, so the thought that an obsolete component is holding up the works would be a significant engineering blunder!

c.sam posted:

A cottage industry perhaps?

How about it John - use your surplus to design and get approval for a similar but better product and put a new one out there!

Beat 'Big L' at their own game....

 And get tangled up in UL and all that other regulatory nonsense?  No thanks!

I have some surplus 135 watt Powerhouses [stored somewhere]. I will enter the cobwebs of the garage for a search if anyone is interested. Keep in mind that although the PH 135 has a workable breaker, it lacks the quality of rapid circuit protection that the PH 180 has.

Back in the early days I wired a pair in parallel linked through a TPC 300 for 270 watts capability at 18 VAC.  If I recall correctly [questionable these days] I had cut the output conductors plugs off and soldered on spade lugs to enable wiring directly to the TPC terminals. 

I'll try asking this question under this thread since it is closely related to the original subject about options involving the PowerHouse 180.

As some may recall, before Lionel issued the CW-80 more than 12 years ago, it first issued a transformer (circa 2001) that used the same cabinet as a controller for an external 80-watt power brick. (Lionel 6-14003, with no catchy name, though the brick was called a PowerHouse 80.)

Now, can I use any of the other PowerHouse bricks with that same controller? Or did Lionel have to beef up the circuitry of that controller for higher-amperage bricks later?

I suspect they improved the circuit, I seriously doubt they made the old 80W unit with capacity for 180 watts!

Based on what was said about the CW 80 internal transformer being capable of 8 to 10 amps, the limiting factor on the CW 80 must be the circuitry or at least the internal breaker.  While the GW 80 looks similar, Lionel moved the transformer out of the unit and employed the PH180 brick. I expect the GW 80 has more robust circuitry to handle 10 amps. 

I would like to read the thread where Dale talked about testing the CW 80, but I could not find it. I did find a reference to someone else who has cracked the CW open to use its transformer and is getting a full 8 amp load on it. I would like to understand more about this. I would think running that transformer into a TPC or DCS TIU would provide the voltage regulation. I would also think it would still be important to provide something like a PSX-AC in between to protect the TPC or TIU.

George

So, I've only been in this hobby for a couple of months now and have noticed something:  is it normal for the big 3 (MTH, Lionel and Atlas) to constantly be out of stock, backordered items etc..????

It seems this happens quite a bit.  Is this a new phenomena or has it always been this way?  I mean power is the one thing that's critical for layouts right?  So wouldn't it behoove these guys to make sure those items were always in stock??

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

So, I've only been in this hobby for a couple of months now and have noticed something:  is it normal for the big 3 (MTH, Lionel and Atlas) to constantly be out of stock, backordered items etc..????

It seems this happens quite a bit.  Is this a new phenomena or has it always been this way?  I mean power is the one thing that's critical for layouts right?  So wouldn't it behoove these guys to make sure those items were always in stock??

When you make your bed in China, this is what happens.  And would be rather laughable if it weren't so frustrating.

Not sure how you can run a company with little to no control over it's manufacturing schedule.  They create demand for their product....then fail to produce the product.  Or deliver it as advertised.  Or in tact and usable. 

And somehow, the reduced labor costs fail to be passed along to the consumer.

What's not to love?

A bit off-topic, but maybe after Christmas, i'll go back and look at historical prices for Lionel, MTH and Atlas rolling stock (back to the 70's maybe).  Then, I'll put together a graph that factors in inflation and shows when manufacturing in China started.  I'd like to see if there has been any real benefit to the consumers (ie us).  I have a feeling  you're correct.  Like everything else, I don't believe there has been any cost reduction for the end users......

I believe that the manufacturer's will eventually have to change thier business model.  Going through dealers is a thing of the past.  I live in the Dallas metroplex which is the 4 largest metroplex in the US (based on population) and there's only two shops within an hours drive that carry any O scale stock.  And they carry very, very limited inventory.

I find it absurd that I have to contact a dealer in person or online to order the items I want.  Sure, you can order from the above mentioned companies direct if you want to pay 10% to 15% more.  At some point, the big guys are going to have to sell direct to the public.  

Sorry guys, just venting a bit here.  But what I've mentioned above are serious barriers to getting new people into the hobby.  The average age of the train hobbyist keeps creeping up and up. 

I don't think they could survive without dealers or distributors. They are an important part of any manufacturers business. I worked 43 years for a large industrial distributor and no manufacturer could take on the work load that we provided as well as keeping costs under control.

Rod Miller

George S posted:

Based on what was said about the CW 80 internal transformer being capable of 8 to 10 amps, the limiting factor on the CW 80 must be the circuitry or at least the internal breaker.  While the GW 80 looks similar, Lionel moved the transformer out of the unit and employed the PH180 brick. I expect the GW 80 has more robust circuitry to handle 10 amps. 

I would like to read the thread where Dale talked about testing the CW 80, but I could not find it. I did find a reference to someone else who has cracked the CW open to use its transformer and is getting a full 8 amp load on it. I would like to understand more about this. I would think running that transformer into a TPC or DCS TIU would provide the voltage regulation. I would also think it would still be important to provide something like a PSX-AC in between to protect the TPC or TIU.

George

I'm looking for it. Here Dale talks about the early CW-80 where he mentions the heftiness of the transformer part, but nothing about what I think I remember about the tests of it.

http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=34

romiller49 posted:

I don't think they could survive without dealers or distributors. They are an important part of any manufacturers business. I worked 43 years for a large industrial distributor and no manufacturer could take on the work load that we provided as well as keeping costs under control.

Rod Miller

Just my two cents:  Dealers are needed.  Distributors are probably disposable....in the model train hobby in 2016.

romiller49 posted:

I don't think they could survive without dealers or distributors. They are an important part of any manufacturers business. I worked 43 years for a large industrial distributor and no manufacturer could take on the work load that we provided as well as keeping costs under control.

Rod Miller

I completely disagree.  Tesla sees the obvious flaws with utilizing a dealer network and is bypassing it (and doing quite well to boot) as is Menards.  The dealer/distributor model worked in the 20th century (pre-internet) but won't work moving forward into the 21st century.   Technology has evolved leaps and bounds in the last 10 years.  Those industries/companies that fight it instead of embrace it will have a tough time in the very near future.  It seems to me that the manufacturers have become complacent regarding their customer base.  That's why they haven't changed anything about their business model in decades.  The US population has skyrocketed in the last couple decades but the average age of the O scale customer has risen.  Hmmm, why is that?

So I wanted to ask, how does having a middle-man (sometimes 2 middlemen) reduce costs?  Lionel/MTH/Atlas could just sell direct via the internet and completely cut middlemen out of the picture and out of the price.    

Because ultimately, if you have an issue with your product, you don't go back to the dealer do you?  You go back to the manufacturer.  So, they support you on the back-end, but not the front.....  Doesn't make any sense to me. 

I noticed many products say in the instructions not to go back to the dealer but to contact the manufacturer instead.

I think there are a couple of 180's just came up on the auction site. might want to look there. I think eastside trains had some too.

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

romiller49 posted:

I don't think they could survive without dealers or distributors. They are an important part of any manufacturers business. I worked 43 years for a large industrial distributor and no manufacturer could take on the work load that we provided as well as keeping costs under control.

Rod Miller

I completely disagree.  Tesla sees the obvious flaws with utilizing a dealer network and is bypassing it (and doing quite well to boot) as is Menards.  The dealer/distributor model worked in the 20th century (pre-internet) but won't work moving forward into the 21st century.   Technology has evolved leaps and bounds in the last 10 years.  Those industries/companies that fight it instead of embrace it will have a tough time in the very near future.  It seems to me that the manufacturers have become complacent regarding their customer base.  That's why they haven't changed anything about their business model in decades.  The US population has skyrocketed in the last couple decades but the average age of the O scale customer has risen.  Hmmm, why is that?

So I wanted to ask, how does having a middle-man (sometimes 2 middlemen) reduce costs?  Lionel/MTH/Atlas could just sell direct via the internet and completely cut middlemen out of the picture and out of the price.    

Because ultimately, if you have an issue with your product, you don't go back to the dealer do you?  You go back to the manufacturer.  So, they support you on the back-end, but not the front.....  Doesn't make any sense to me. 

Do you want to pay full MSRP because that's what they are going to charge you. In that case, the manufacturers will go out of business and you will have no trains to buy.

catnap posted:

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

romiller49 posted:

I don't think they could survive without dealers or distributors. They are an important part of any manufacturers business. I worked 43 years for a large industrial distributor and no manufacturer could take on the work load that we provided as well as keeping costs under control.

Rod Miller

I completely disagree.  Tesla sees the obvious flaws with utilizing a dealer network and is bypassing it (and doing quite well to boot) as is Menards.  The dealer/distributor model worked in the 20th century (pre-internet) but won't work moving forward into the 21st century.   Technology has evolved leaps and bounds in the last 10 years.  Those industries/companies that fight it instead of embrace it will have a tough time in the very near future.  It seems to me that the manufacturers have become complacent regarding their customer base.  That's why they haven't changed anything about their business model in decades.  The US population has skyrocketed in the last couple decades but the average age of the O scale customer has risen.  Hmmm, why is that?

So I wanted to ask, how does having a middle-man (sometimes 2 middlemen) reduce costs?  Lionel/MTH/Atlas could just sell direct via the internet and completely cut middlemen out of the picture and out of the price.    

Because ultimately, if you have an issue with your product, you don't go back to the dealer do you?  You go back to the manufacturer.  So, they support you on the back-end, but not the front.....  Doesn't make any sense to me. 

Do you want to pay full MSRP because that's what they are going to charge you. In that case, the manufacturers will go out of business and you will have no trains to buy.

And what would full MSRP be if they took out the middle markups? If you have to have a false sense of getting a discount, then I'm sure the manufacturer will accommodate.