Lionel 2016 Vol 2 SOUTHERN PACIFIC DAYLIGHT 21" PASSENGER 4-CAR SET (6-83102) - opinions?

breezinup posted:

Matt Makens posted:

The Lionel colors are more likely to be wrong than 3rd Rail/GGD. 

Many thought the Sunset/3rd Rail Daylight did not accurately reflect the actual engine's colors, that they were too dull, and were a flat color.

Except, that would be EXACTLY the way the "real" GS Class Daylight locomotives would have been painted, i.e. lacquer or enamel paint.

The Sunset model is the top picture; the real deal is the lower photo. The real engine has more vibrant paint colors (especially the orange), and clearly has a gloss finish.

Yes, of course the restored SP 4449 is much, MUCH more glossy (vibrant?) that what an original 1940/1950s era Daylight would be, since it is painted with Dupont Imron (epoxy) paint. That said, the "new" Dupont paint is still an EXACT match to the original SP paint color master chips (which still reside in the California State Railroad Museum), although more shinny looking.  

Quite different from the Sunset model.

Poor example & comparison due to differences in photography and lighting (outdoors in bright sun vs. indoors with artificial lighting).

The Lionel models are much more accurate.

That may be your opinion but, I beg to differ, as I have compared various models of SP Daylights (HO, O, and G) to the colors on the real SP 4449, and the most accurate models have been Sunset/3rd Rail and MTH, in O Scale.

 

Big Jim posted:

breezinup posted:

The Lionel models are much more accurate.

 

Where is your proof?

Sunset/3rd Rail on the top, Lionel in the middle, actual engine at the bottom. 

breezinup posted:

Big Jim posted:

breezinup posted:

The Lionel models are much more accurate.

 

Where is your proof?

Sunset/3rd Rail on the top, Lionel in the middle, actual engine at the bottom. 

That's not "proof" in my opinion! 

I think Hot Water's points are all valid. But it does seem clear to me (just my opinion) that Lionel's colors are closer to the Daylight colors seen today on the 4449 and its cars. Of course, I don't know if the color is different, or by how much, from the way it may have been "in the old days." In any case, it comes down to preference, I suppose. I just prefer the vibrant colors seen on the Daylight train that we see in operation today. 

PeterA posted:

A year ago I sold my set of Third Rail cars as their colors were so far off, I hoped Lionel would do a better job of matching their GS-4.  Now they are here and the colors are not perfect but a much closer match - particularly given the time between production of the loco and the cars.  The reds are just a tiny bit different.

Back to this starting point, I think the closest possible paint match for the Lionel GS-4 Daylights is going to be Lionel No. 29115 (4-car set) and No. 25416 (2-car set) cataloged in 2005. There was a sound diner as well. These are 18" aluminum passenger cars, and match the first scale GS-2 (2005) and scale GS-4 (No. 11127, from 2008) Lionel made. I have the 11127 and these cars, and they are a perfect match. Reportedly, these cars are also a very close match as well for the later Lionel GS-4 Daylight engines that came out a few years ago.

Incidentally, the Lionel "Shasta" Daylight cars are considerably off colorwise, and only match the Alco PAs they were cataloged with.

breezinup posted:

 

I'll take the 3rd Rail.

What I haven't paid any attention to before is that the smokebox on the 4449 is not sheathed. This is an excellent view of that.

What do the SP experts think about the corregated roofs? I have never seen one on a Daylight but maybe others have. It was my understanding that at least the 1937 cars were all Pullman Standard and and had smooth roofs.

Anyone with a pic that match Lionel's cars?

I think these are just ESE Budd cars painted Daylight colors. They certainly have the ESE silver diaphrams unlike the better matching ones that came on the 18" cars.

Pete

Good question Pete.  I just opened my cars up and they are heavier than I thought they would be.  Overall I was pleased with the quality of construction.  The name plate did buckle on a couple but easy to fix.  I had a set of Lionel 18" SP cars and they had smooth rooftops.  I did a search and I could not find any pics of corrugated roofs.  Everything I found looks like this..

'

Even if SP ran a few Daylight cars with corrugated roofs, a simple Google search would indicate that the majority would have had smooth rooftops.  Why then would Lionel chose to make a set with the corrugated roof?  This is what drives me nuts about Lionel.  They bring to market 21" scale passenger cars and scale NW2s that have Kadee mount pads and are "nice" but just NOT accurate.  I am confused about who Lionel is marketing these cars for.  I install Kadees and I like a fair degree of fidelity to the prototype.  I am not hard core in terms of fidelity but I like it to look closely like the real thing.  Why does Lionel do all that work to create scale pieces and not get it right?  Lionel is that football team that can drive the field and get into the red zone, but never get into the endzone.  I don't want to settle for field goals but I just can't justify/afford the $300 a car prices of GGD.  

I am not sure what I will do with mine, sell for a loss, live with them or contact Lionel about a refund.  I want to root for Lionel to get it right, because it benefits our hobby to have Lionel as a choice and frankly I can't afford a fleet of GGD cars.

breezinup posted:

 In any case, it comes down to preference, I suppose. I just prefer. ..

That sums it up for me! 

Norton posted:

What do the SP experts think about the corregated roofs?

The Daylight cars did NOT have corrugated roofs.

I have never seen one on a Daylight but maybe others have.

Neither have I.

It was my understanding that at least the 1937 cars were all Pullman Standard and and had smooth roofs.

Correct, and there is LOTS of documentation confirming that pretty much ALL the Daylight train sets and smooth roofs.

Anyone with a pic that match Lionel's cars?

I doubt such photos exist.

I think these are just ESE Budd cars painted Daylight colors. They certainly have the ESE silver diaphrams unlike the better matching ones that came on the 18" cars.

Certainly sounds logical. On another note, did Lionel produce/offer ANY of the famous SP Daylight articulated chair cars? How about the three section articulated diner?

Pete

Hot Water posted:

Certainly sounds logical. On another note, did Lionel produce/offer ANY of the famous SP Daylight articulated chair cars? How about the three section articulated diner?

 

I would love to see those! The only articulated passenger cars I think Lionel has done were made of tinplate like the Hiawatha and the Rail Chief.

My new Southern Pacific Lines Diner couplers are bowing upward and the cars bind against each other in reverse on O-72 track. (See photos)

It was bad enough to have the Southern Pacific Lines Strip coming off my cars, now the couplers are bowing upward and uncoupling themselves without opening after just one hour.  (See photo)

The cars with the full Diaphragm are binding against each other when I reverse the train.  The new design for the coupler system allows the cars to pull apart going forward, but in reverse mine are colliding with each other on my O-72 curves. (See photo)  The binding is so severe that the diaphragm is bending.  It is also tilting the car up to one side. 

Lionel's new design brought the cars together more, but a the cost of derailing the cars as they bind in reverse.  My cars have only one hour of run time and the couplers are pitching upward already.  This is a concern for the cars like the NYC Empire State Express, Amtrak and Southern Pacific Lines.  Hopefully the new UP and Pennsylvania cars with small traditional diaphragms will clear each other in reverse, but the couplers may still begin tilting upward.

I also included two photos of the name strip coming off my new cars.

John that is a common issue with long cars close coupled and trying to shove them. The only solution is dont try to shove them. The slack being strecthed out allows forward operation. Bunching the slack up will always cause the cars to bind. Its a give and take for more realistic looking cars.

Thank you for the photos.  Corrugations on the roof are the least of your inaccuracies.  They are pseudo-Budd cars, but I submit that the 1950s baggage car extrusions were far more accurate as far as Budd cars go.  These are not scale models.

LaidOffSick,  Thank you for the note.  I would prefer cars that run both directions like my C&O, NYC ESE, and Wabash cars from the first run of the 21" passenger cars.  

I don't know why the couplers are pitching upward, but it has caused the coach to uncouple from the train twice. My SP GS4 hit the rear of the train at a good clip and derailed the Observation. The long tongue of the K-matic coupler system is not stiff enough to keep the coupler level. My layout is minimum-72 curves to accommodate my  Vison Line Big Boys. The layout has a double S curve along the river that gives the K-matic couplers a workout.  On occasion, a car will rock as the K-matic systems swings back and forth and catches.

I guess I would prefer the old trucks and couplers. They worked, although they did spark on occasion.

I found at least three Budd cars that were painted Daylight in the late 1970s/early 1980s.  They include the diner at CSRM, now in UP Armour Yellow, a 40 seat club lounge (#291), and #9009, now apparently in private hands.

Source http://www.rypn.org/forums/vie....php?f=1&t=36660

That still does not make these scale models, but at least you know a few Daylight cars had corrugations on the roof.  This never happened when SP was running these trains.

Still waiting to hear any suggestions for salvaging my new 6-83102, 83107 and 83110 Southern Pacific Lines passenger cars.

1. Is there a glue recommended to fasten the "Southern Pacific Lines" Strip back on the car that will not adversely interact with the glue the factory already used?

2. Why doesn't Lionel Service have replacement parts for the newly-designed car trucks and couplers?  (Surely Lionel did not expect every passenger car to come from the factory in perfect operating condition given their Mogul, NW2, and Shay experiences.)

3. Why is the "course of repair" to send them back to the dealers for a full-refund?  

4. What happened to the famous Lionel factory Warranty with Call Tags and return shipping at Lionel's expense?

5. Will there be a factory buy-back of the Lionel LEGACY Southern Pacific GS4 engines with steam whistle now that there are no cars to pull?

These are just a few questions for Lionel to answer.  Thank you very much for this wonderful experience.  TalkToUs.  John Rowlen

This really does concern me for the other 21” cars coming our way. I’d hate to see the second set of NYC versions with as many cosmetic and operating issues as the ones shown here...

I have a friend who has the Lionel GS-4 and and a complete matching Daylight car set from several years ago.  I believe that the cars are aluminum but I am not certain.  The cars are beautiful, but, and this is a big but, the trucks on nearly all the cars are falling apart due to what appears to be zinc rot.  The side frames disintegrate as the train goes around his layout.  The GS-4 is fine.  

My friend has contacted Lionel about replacements trucks but none are available.  He is considering contacting Sunset / 3rd Rail about purchasing trucks to match the Lionel cars.  The story will be continued.

NH Joe

What will the future of toy trains hold for us?  We can only judge by the current production reaching the United States.

Promises to myself:

1. No more deposits on BTO.

2. Count the number of engine features as potential repairs and costly failures.

3. Don't believe the hype from website cheerleaders.

4. Buy used on OGR Forum or Ebay from people who have operated the item.  Ebay Concierge for my volume of purchases has iron-clad protection and service. 

Here are some color photos for comparison.

This is a brass Williams GS-4 followed by a MTH box car at Coupler Curve.

This is a K-Line 21 inch business car on the end of the same train.

This is the brass Williams GS-4 once again at Norris Falls.

This is a brass 3rd Rail Mountain followed by a MTH box car and MTH dome car at Lizard Peak.

John Rowlen posted:

What will the future of toy trains hold for us?  We can only judge by the current production reaching the United States.

Promises to myself:

1. No more deposits on BTO.

2. Count the number of engine features as potential repairs and costly failures.

3. Don't believe the hype from website cheerleaders.

4. Buy used on OGR Forum or Ebay from people who have operated the item.  Ebay Concierge for my volume of purchases has iron-clad protection and service. 

Wise thinking.

Just had another thought about this whole "Daylight cars mess"; how is the latest Lionel Legacy GS-4 lettered? Is it the "Southern Pacific Lines" small lettering (from pre 1946), high up on the tender sides, or is it the large, "billboard" SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering (from late 1946 through the end of steam)? Since the passenger cars under discussion are apparently lettered in the "Southern Pacific Lines" scheme, one would hope that the locomotive models are lettered the same. Also, none of the SP Daylight locomotives nor passenger equipment carried the "Southern Pacific Lines" letter by the end of 1947. 

Now that I think about it think I'm going to send mine back for a full refund(there are other things I can spend $800 plus dollars on). I will call Lionel in the morning. The ribbed roof on the cars and several other factors are really disturbing. If you go look at the catalog pictures they were presented smooth. Not sure what they modeled the road numbers after because when I look them up the real cars look absolutely different. Also the quality has to improve significantly on the simple stuff. I think all of us should send them back as they really not prototypical for these cars and the quality is terrible. This was really a manufacturing debacle as the wrong shells were used. I really do think they used the ESE leftovers and attempted to make them in to SP daylight without giving a thought! Thanks to all the res ponders here on the forum its pretty clear this was not a stellar job even for non rivet counters. Maybe Lionel should do a redo and send all who purchased the corrected set. Happy Railroading!! Cheers Don 

The GS-4 offered most recently was offered with both the early Southern Pacific Lines lettering as well as the latest Southern Pacific Lettering. I chose not to buy the cars since I chose the later lettering scheme for my locomotive. I have a set of MTH cars from about 15 years ago. The color match is close but they are smooth sided so not the best choice but they were here already. 

Hot Water posted:

Just had another thought about this whole "Daylight cars mess"; how is the latest Lionel Legacy GS-4 lettered? Is it the "Southern Pacific Lines" small lettering (from pre 1946), high up on the tender sides, or is it the large, "billboard" SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering (from late 1946 through the end of steam)? . 

In its latest run Lionel offered the Daylight GS-4 with both types of lettering.

T4TT posted:

 

Why then would Lionel chose to make a set with the corrugated roof?  This is what drives me nuts about Lionel.  .....Why does Lionel do all that work to create scale pieces and not get it right? 

Well, it's pretty much understood that this is the way it is (and has always been) when manufacturers don't make road-specific passenger cars. All of this has been known and discussed for a long time. Cars are relatively generic so they can be used for a number of road names offered by the manufacturer, to meet required cost savings. Lionel is like that, as is MTH, as is Williams, as is Atlas O, as was K-line, and as was Weaver. I don't recall the Lionel catalog saying there would be road-specific details. Road specific passenger cars are available for those who need them, from Sunset/3rd Rail, provided the purchaser is willing to pay about 300% more than the cost of a Lionel product.

It's nice that Lionel is now making engines with road-specific details. However, that hasn't extended to passenger cars (or freight cars) by any of the major manufacturers. The manufacturing costs of such would be through the roof, corrugated or otherwise.

New Haven Joe posted:

 

his is a K-Line 21 inch business car on the end of the same train.

This is the brass Williams GS-4 once again at Norris Falls.

 

Where did you get this? I thought they only made this car in 18"?

Texas Eagle 77 posted:

New Haven Joe posted:

 

his is a K-Line 21 inch business car on the end of the same train.

This is the brass Williams GS-4 once again at Norris Falls.

 

Where did you get this? I thought they only made this car in 18"?

I got it at a train show several years ago.   It is a 21 inch car.  NH Joe

Another picture for the Southern Pacific Lines passenger cars.

Right-side Rear Observation Window is poking out of the car body.  It appears the installer trimmed the interior plastic that would have kept the window in place.  The window sticks out and cannot be pushed back into place.

If this installer worked on other cars, there could be other right-side rear windows sticking out of the side of Observation Cars.    (It is the final insult: The car is sticking its tngue" out at me.)

The only way to reinstall the window is to take it out and put it in square to the body. Basic geometry. The diagonal is longer than any of the sides.

Pete

Pete,  That would work if the retaining flange was on the window. This piece is part of a three window strip that must curve into the end of the car. The other two windows are forcing this end window through the opening because there is no restraining lip on the end edges of the window glass. 

( I love substitute teaching in Geometry. It was helpful in designing and building my new O-72 minimum curve layout: "Valley of Bridges".)

John Rowlen posted:

Pete,  That would work if the retaining flange was on the window. This piece is part of a three window strip that must curve into the end of the car. The other two windows are forcing this end window through the opening because there is no restraining lip on the end edges of the window glass. 

( I love substitute teaching in Geometry. It was helpful in designing and building my new O-72 minimum curve layout: "Valley of Bridges".)

OK but, I thought you were going to "send them back", so why waste your time on these pieces of crap?

After waiting so long for the passenger cars and purchasing the SP GS4 steam engine #4449 (which also needed immediate service from Lionel) , it is hard to give up.  If I give up on these, I might as well start giving up on the hobby, sell everything. Put the money in the bank.  I just sent my new 6-84239 Western Maryland Shay back to the dealer because of a missing bushing and grinding gears.   I am in a state of disbelief.  How can Lionel stay in business with all the items that need service?  I would think the technicians would get tired on taking the beating.  I know I am tired.  With 34 items back to Lionel in the past two years, I am near the end. 

My father and I enjoyed this hobby for many years, and it is filled with many happy hours working on the layouts we built.  He is gone, but the memories live on.

John Rowlen posted:

After waiting so long for the passenger cars and purchasing the SP GS4 steam engine #4449 (which also needed immediate service from Lionel) , it is hard to give up.  If I give up on these, I might as well start giving up on the hobby, sell everything. Put the money in the bank.  I just sent my new 6-84239 Western Maryland Shay back to the dealer because of a missing bushing and grinding gears.   I am in a state of disbelief.  How can Lionel stay in business with all the items that need service?  I would think the technicians would get tired on taking the beating.  I know I am tired.  With 34 items back to Lionel in the past two years, I am near the end. 

My father and I enjoyed this hobby for many years, and it is filled with many happy hours working on the layouts we built.  He is gone, but the memories live on.

One of the many, many reasons that I have NOT purchased many Lionel locomotives (and even fewer freight cars) over the years. Personally, I prefer Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot and MTH products.

Yes, the "Drum Head" has a light bulb housing with a bulb that lights, but the "Drum Head" was painted with opaque paint so NO IMAGE shows through the "Drum Head" Lens.  Light escapes around the "Dumb Head" Frame edges.

My Lionel TMCC GS2 is an almost perfect match to my GGD Daylight cars. I also have the 3rd Rail GS4 and it is a beautiful model despite some jerk gluing the engineer side tender ladder on with a fricked gallon of super glue. I’m hoping I can get all the glue bookers off and get the paint touched up. There are worse things in the world that can happen. Just think, your biggest problem is with your expensive fricken toy train. There are a lot of people this world who don’t know where their next meal will come from or weather they can feed their children so consider yourself blessed, your life is awesome by comparison

  I find it amazing that the majority of the posts are about colors, ribs and other scale issues. I understand how much enjoyment there is in exact scale and maybe I missed something but aren’t most of us still using the way over scale couplers and huge wheel flanges not to mention 3rails? I believe the real love we all started with was running and watching our trains make their way around our layout. Most people can’t begin to see and notice the little details from a few feet away especially in motion.

 To me the real issue after a 100 plus years of making trains is the reliability of things like couplers, lights, trucks, windows gearing wheels, center pick ups and being able to at least match the colors of a whole set of your own products. This should be a given. These trains are not being made one at a time in a garage by a person who does this part time, it’s a big business with what appears to be more demand than available product. The pricing is ridiculous and the way the dealers and customers are being treated is even more ridiculous. Many of us with great anticipation open our new boxes hoping this time everything will work and if not hoping it will be easy to fix what ever problem happens to be there. Just about everything we buy needs work and that’s wrong. The idea that we shouldn’t expect everything to stay together and work as it was intended because we aren’t paying that much is an opinion from very few who must have a ton of money to burn and not from the majority of us who know that paying over $2000 for a set that needs work is outrageous. 

  I’ve been dealing with China mfg. for many years in other hobby products and know these are way overpriced. Look how cheap a die cast metal toy car is. OK so it not as complicated so how about a jet engine for a model airplane that cost the same is my new train and the engineering for the electronics and overall mechanics far exceeds what we are getting.  I’m sorry but Lionel and MTH both need to get there act together. Who out there recently got there new Hystler logging train set and bought some extra cars for it? How did you feel when you opened the boxes for the cars to find several of the screws had fallen out. How did you like that the add on set of log cars are A completely different color than the ones that came in the train set. Or when you found out you can’t tighten all the loose screws without making the couplers bind. By the way non functional couplers at that price. OK MTH lovers how many just got their Premier Canadian Christmas cars for the loco that showed up 3days before Christmas? All that stuff was promised in November. By the way this was the first MTH product that only had one minor fix, an led fell out of one of the side marker lights on the passenger car so good work MTH, just wish I had them in time for the holidays.

  Bottom line I don’t think Lionel or MTH will Pay any attention if we’re upset about ribs or smooth, 1946 or some other years numbering lettering or any other scale details. Not even about BTO and time frames but we should make it quite clear that every box we spend our money on should have a product in it that dependably does what we are lead to believe it should do. We used to be able to walk into our LHS and look over the things before we bought them but the way the companies treated the shops they killed most of them and are doing great damage to the Hobby. 

  Unfortunately I want these so much I’m going to do everything I can to fix them and Lionel probably counts on many of us thinking the same way along with the large number that just collects and never runs. So we will continue to get stepped on and now in a way I’ve become part of the problem.

I agree with you Gmann, these things ain’t cheap and we are getting over priced crap for our hard earned money. Some things I do say aren’t a big deal but when you add up all of the issues Johns set has they’re junk in my book. We deserve better for our money bu5 we probably won’t get it.

Has anyone attempted to return the SP passenger cars to Lionel for a refund?

I have been instructed by Lionel to return my seven Southern Pacific Lines 6-83102, 83107 and 83110 to the dealer from whom I purchased them.  I get to pay the $30.00 shipping back to the dealer, but I get my $900.00 money back from the Dealer.

Now I have to figure out what my new Lionel Southern Pacific Lines GS4 #4449 will pull.  It can pull my new log Disconnects since I returned my Western Maryland Shay #6 to another dealer too. (Missing bushing and grinding gears.)  Thank God I am an optimist and have been a Lionel train operator for 63 years, stating at age 4.