Lionel 2016 Vol 2 SOUTHERN PACIFIC DAYLIGHT 21" PASSENGER 4-CAR SET (6-83102) - opinions?

John Rowlen posted:

I have been instructed by Lionel to return my seven Southern Pacific Lines 6-83102, 83107 and 83110 to the dealer from whom I purchased them.  I get to pay the $30.00 shipping back to the dealer, but I get my $900.00 money back from the Dealer.

My, isn't THAT nice! Lionel will not take the mistakes back, so the dealer now gets stuck with those cars?

Now I have to figure out what my new Lionel Southern Pacific Lines GS4 #4449 will pull.  It can pull my new log Disconnects since I returned my Western Maryland Shay #6 to another dealer too. (Missing bushing and grinding gears.)  Thank God I am an optimist and have been a Lionel train operator for 63 years, stating at age 4.

I special ordered mine from my LHS.  I know he is barely staying open.  I am not sure if I can return them.  I will find out this weekend.  All of the sudden GGD's cost per passenger car looks a lot better to me.  I do not see the value in 120 bucks per car if it never leaves the box.  $285 as crazy as that price is, at least you know you will get an accurate car and worst case you can return it to Scott Mann.  Of course you still have to drop another 20 bucks/car to replace the dang lights.  I really must be too picky.  But the SP roofs annoy me and the stupid LEDs in Scott's cars annoy me just as much!  I shouldn't make playing with toy trains so frickin' difficult.  

I was really rooting for Lionel to make a bigger splash in the scale market.  I considered myself a pretty loyal Lionel customer.  I have all Legacy engines but I do have some GGD cars and some Atlas stuff.  I wanted Lionel to succeed in order to keep our hobby alive and of course so I could buy more fun trains to play with.  The kadee mount pads on new engines and rolling stock and hybrid Mikado really excited me.  The mistake on the SP roof is a bummer, but mistakes happen. But the refusal to accept the return and hang it on the dealer and ultimately the customer is hard to forgive.  I am done pre-ordering anything from Lionel.  I think it is time for me to take an extended break from buying Lionel's products.  In reality I have more engines than I can possibly play with anyway.  What I don't have is the will to patronize a company that tells its customers "not our problem...good luck with that."

And another one bites the dust

I believe that a small number of people within the 3-rail hobby purchase most of the trains.  The members of this forum are representative of this passionate set of collectors and operators.  Most of us have more trains than we can run, store or display but we continue to buy more trains from the latest catalog.  A significant portion of this group is moving from the toy train hobby to the scale hobby.  This 3RS segment is beginning to demand correct colors and details on cars as well as engines.

However, with cars, the manufacturers are continuing to make generic models that they paint for many different railroads.  I believe that the manufacturers would do better (make more money) to produce accurate freight and passenger cars for this segment.  For example, Daylight cars should have the correct smooth roof and colors.  The HO and N scale hobby segment gets accurate cars, why not the 3RS segment?

One of my frustrations when buying a NH set is having to purchase a dome car.  The NH never had any domes.  I would rather have an accurate parlor car in the set instead of a dome since the NH was one of the largest operators of parlor cars.  

I would also like to see scale cars come with Kadee or Kadee compatible couplers.  Manufacturers could offer a transition car or trucks to make it easier to operate cars with other equipment.  I have observed that most passenger car sets are operated as unit trains and are almost never mixed with other equipment.  Therefore, if all the cars in a set came with Kadee compatible couplers it wouldn't matter to most operators.  Perhaps the baggage car in a scale set could have a traditional 3-rail coupler at one end and a Kadee compatible at the other.

Clearly, there is also a quality problem with some products.  A $1,000+ engine or a $100+ plus car should be just about perfect when the customer gets it.  I see the HO guys at my club open and operate their trains without problems right from the box.  We need the same attention to quality in the 3-rail market segment.

NH Joe

FYI the daylight set came with adapters for KD couplers and instructions as to which ones to buy. It reduces the turn radius from 54 to 72. For those who haven't the layout space it's nice to have the option.

GManning35 posted:

FYI the daylight set came with adapters for KD couplers and instructions as to which ones to buy. It reduces the turn radius from 54 to 72. For those who haven't the layout space it's nice to have the option.

I wonder if that would be a solution to the coupler issues described in detail in previous posts?

I did not need to make any coupler changes/adjustments/repairs in the set of first run ABS cars I got and never contemplated going over to Kadees. But obviously, and I imagine like a lot of other people, I am very concerned about quality issues with the forthcoming UP Excursion Train sets.

These will have a different diaphragm arrangement than the cars issued to date (centered and not full width), at least according to the pre-production photos released to date, but I assume will have same plastic coupler assemblies. The samples show clearly that these cars will not have the ESE-type ribbed/fluted body panels, especially on the roofs. 

So will the UP cars have the corrugated roofs too... my photos show a mix of photos from the early prototypes at York...

Word is on the street that the UP cars are coming in next weekend !!!!

This will either be a day of elation or utter let down...

I remember several years ago another Forumite said regarding a big delay of an item, “think your mad now, wait till they get here”

Ive got Freedom Train cars and UP Excursion cars on order and I am a bit worried about the quality

J Daddy posted:

So will the UP cars have the corrugated roofs too... my photos show a mix of photos from the early prototypes at York...

Word is on the street that the UP cars are coming in next weekend !!!!

This will either be a day of elation or utter let down...

This is the way to start rumors flying - sometimes JD I dunno when you’re joking. 

Any more corrugated/ribbed/fluted roofs would NOT be amusing. Anyway your photos show ACF-type bodies without corrugation and RIVETS on the roofs (or some of them).

I can hardly wait for mine . . .

Hancock52 posted:

J Daddy posted:

So will the UP cars have the corrugated roofs too... my photos show a mix of photos from the early prototypes at York...

Word is on the street that the UP cars are coming in next weekend !!!!

This will either be a day of elation or utter let down...

This is the way to start rumors flying - sometimes JD I dunno when you’re joking. 

Any more corrugated/ribbed/fluted roofs would NOT be amusing. Anyway your photos show ACF-type bodies without corrugation and RIVETS on the roofs (or some of them).

I can hardly wait for mine . . .

No kidding or rumors intended... I am on the edge of my seat as well.... My LHS gave me a call and said get your monies ready. they are state side...

Hopefully we will see them soon ....

Ironically, it took me 7 years to collect the Kline 21 inch City of San Francisco passengers cars... and I just completed it last week by finding the end observation dome car.

So I have a fall back in case things are not right.

As far as Kadees, too bad Lionel does not just throw in a set with each car... sure would make a difference than the droop - poop dumb tack couplers...

J Daddy posted:

... No kidding or rumors intended... I am on the edge of my seat as well.... My LHS gave me a call and said get your monies ready. they are state side...

Hopefully we will see them soon ....

It's been so long, I can't even recall if these 21" cars were catalog'd as formal BTO items or just open-stock items with Lionel's warehouse.

In any event, I hope folks who pre-ordered the UP Excursion set are happy with what's delivered, as they seem to be serious UP enthusiasts who are most-concerned with getting a prototypically correct set of cars.  

David

Mine are all going back tomorrow.   Road name banners loose on 6 of the 7 car set. One car has a toilet bowl bouncing around inside, 1 grab handle missing on 1 car,  2 other grab handles bent and mounting holes elongated on another.  I'm not setting anymore for some assembly required, blemishes, or repairs on arrival from Lionel. Especially with a close to $1K set.

Lionel informed me that these cars will not be repaired.

Dealer tells me I'll be losing my 10% deposit as well.  

John Rowlen posted:

I have been instructed by Lionel to return my seven Southern Pacific Lines 6-83102, 83107 and 83110 to the dealer from whom I purchased them.  I get to pay the $30.00 shipping back to the dealer, but I get my $900.00 money back from the Dealer.

Now I have to figure out what my new Lionel Southern Pacific Lines GS4 #4449 will pull.  It can pull my new log Disconnects since I returned my Western Maryland Shay #6 to another dealer too. (Missing bushing and grinding gears.)  Thank God I am an optimist and have been a Lionel train operator for 63 years, stating at age 4.

I'm in the same boat as mine are going back as well with the 4449 sitting solo.  Time to shop for another passenger car set.  Going to miss the station sounds diner too.

J Daddy posted:

Hancock52 posted:

J Daddy posted:

So will the UP cars have the corrugated roofs too... my photos show a mix of photos from the early prototypes at York...

Word is on the street that the UP cars are coming in next weekend !!!!

This will either be a day of elation or utter let down...

This is the way to start rumors flying - sometimes JD I dunno when you’re joking. 

Any more corrugated/ribbed/fluted roofs would NOT be amusing. Anyway your photos show ACF-type bodies without corrugation and RIVETS on the roofs (or some of them).

I can hardly wait for mine . . .

No kidding or rumors intended... I am on the edge of my seat as well.... My LHS gave me a call and said get your monies ready. they are state side...

Holy fear and loathing, Batman! I just contacted my dealer (Nassau) to ask when he is expecting them and indeed, he thinks they'll have them next week. 

Hopefully we will see them soon ....

What a time for me to be on the road. However, I nominate YOU (J Daddy) to post pictures of these when you have them as practically everything on which I have staked my remaining hopes about this set derives from your pre-production photos. 

Ironically, it took me 7 years to collect the Kline 21 inch City of San Francisco passengers cars... and I just completed it last week by finding the end observation dome car.

So I have a fall back in case things are not right.

That's a great consolation for you even if Lionel's made a mess of these cars. When they were cataloged I believed all the hype and thought they'd surpass K-Line's aluminum versions of UP passenger cars. Now, uh, I wish I wasn't a UP fan.

I don't agree that you should lose a deposit on a faulty set of cars.  Just saying....

I was given the same message from Lionel.  I will take my special order SP cars back to my LHS tomorrow.  I hope he will be able to return them to the wholesaler.  I am not sure how this will play out at the moment.  What is clear to me is that once Lionel gets their money from their wholesalers they are absolved of any responsibility to their customers. I am not going to special order anything from Lionel in the future.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

It's been so long, I can't even recall if these 21" cars were catalog'd as formal BTO items or just open-stock items with Lionel's warehouse.

My first thought about this was that I and indeed some dealers appear to have confused “build to order” with “pre-order” (as in discount for ordering early and in most cases paying a deposit, in this instance over two years before the product arrives). The UP Excursion sets were not described as BTO in the 2016 catalog that announced them; however, I did see them described as that on some dealer websites.

But maybe there’s no real difference. Lionel inevitably will know through it’s distributors how many sets the dealer network has ordered/reserved. That achieves the same result as BTO because production can be keyed to the known demand for the product.

There’s really no guessing about the number of pre-orders a product has generated. The unknown quantity is how many orders will be cancelled, left unpaid by reluctant customers or returned by dissatisfied ones. I don’t want to find myself in that last category, hence all the suspense about these sets.

Hancock52 posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

It's been so long, I can't even recall if these 21" cars were catalog'd as formal BTO items or just open-stock items with Lionel's warehouse.

My first thought about this was that I and indeed some dealers appear to have confused “build to order” with “pre-order” (as in discount for ordering early and in most cases paying a deposit, in this instance over two years before the product arrives). The UP Excursion sets were not described as BTO in the 2016 catalog that announced them; however, I did see them described as that on some dealer websites.

But maybe there’s no real difference. Lionel inevitably will know through it’s distributors how many sets the dealer network has ordered/reserved. That achieves the same result as BTO because production can be keyed to the known demand for the product.

There’s really no guessing about the number of pre-orders a product has generated. The unknown quantity is how many orders will be cancelled, left unpaid by reluctant customers or returned by dissatisfied ones. I don’t want to find myself in that last category, hence all the suspense about these sets.

And it kills me because even though not completely prototypically accurate they look great and I love them.  That aside I can’t justify settling for what they cost and waiting for onlong foe them.  Much better should be expected. 

I went thorough enough with legacy engines and not about to do a repeat. 

Such a catch 22 being a Lionel fan...

Yes indeed, being a Lionel fan is a catch 22.

It is so difficult to buy trains sight unseen or without seeing at least a picture of an accurate pre production model --the lionel catalog MTH 3rd rail and GGD all have stuff that theoretically look great but require you to roll the dice--if you don't preorder you can get shut out on something nice and pay a premium after you have seen it if you can find it--if you do preorder you can get stuck with something not as advertised--honestly I'm really puzzled why they can't get it right these days--things are easy to research manufacturing techniques are sophisticated QC is easy to do correctly if you wanted to--all these manufacturers have done some super nice stuff but too many things have been issued that are far below par---I think they all are doing too much all at once and not really focusing on doing a couple things really well--

It is even easier today than ever before to research the prototype.  Lionel reused the tool for the NYC Empire State Express cars.  All they had to do was state that in the product description.  I would NOT have special ordered these cars and would have saved myself a lot of aggravation.  They either knew that tool was not accurate for the SP cars and did not accurately render images in the catalog (the 4 pack and 2 pack both show smooth roofs) or they did not spend 5 minutes on google search before cataloging these cars. Either way, it is clear that a customer can not special order a Lionel product with any degree of certainty about how it will look.  But you can be certain that Lionel will not stand by their product or support the customer.  They hang that on the dealer and wish the customer good luck.   I get that mistakes happen.  Maybe someone screwed up the catalog/web page images.  But Lionel should own that and they should have sent me an RA for these cars.  Instead I have to go to my dealer and hope he will do the right thing, since Lionel didn't.  That is not right and that is why I am so frustrated with Lionel.

If you buy passenger equipment from GGD/3rd Rail you know you are going to get quality and the production process is photo-documented by Scott, who does QC all along the way. You also pretty much know what you are getting with MTH because they have basically made the same things year in and out in different liveries.

Lionel seems to have tried to innovate with the new 21” cars. That’s to their credit as it would have made available whole trains that were not otherwise on offer. Also they said long ago that the first run would be “generic” whereas the second would be more “prototypical.” I’m not sure why the generic ESE body shells got carried over to the second run SP sets but that must have been a deliberate decision. I don’t think it was a mistake or a catalog fluke. Lionel’s design team is too experienced not to know that SP’s iconic Daylight cars were not based on Budd bodywork. I think instead they decided to produce only body types representing the basic ESE design and the ACF type, the latter being what we'll see in the Excursion sets and AFT. 

I don't know about/have not seen enough of the PRR models to guess what those should look like.

More importantly, the second run seems to have come seriously unstuck (no pun intended) because of assembly and design execution issues at the factory. It’s extraordinarily bad if the factory can’t or won’t provide spare parts; I am not aware of anything similar happening with Lionel in the last decade.

I’m thinking that if there is no warranty service I might open up the sound equipped Excursion cars (diner and power car) before I put power to them in case a wire has got pinched/screwed through at the factory. I had that with my first run Texas Special diner. It did get repaired under warranty by Lionel - but that was still in the days of Mike R. and they had the parts, which were electronic components probably common to other cars.

lionel is trying to do too much too fast with the obvious consequence instead of doing a few things really well--

20centuryhudson posted:

lionel is trying to do too much too fast with the obvious consequence instead of doing a few things really well--

Too much I agree with if they have fundamental issues with the factory but I can't fault Lionel for trying. Too fast? Two years plus from catalog to delivery is not fast. Besides, from prior threads about the shipping schedule for the second run it's been obvious that Lionel has had a series of production issues over these sets. 

20centuryhudson posted:

lionel is trying to do too much too fast with the obvious consequence instead of doing a few things really well--

It's time to cut the catalog offerings in half (or more) and focus on getting the things that are offered built properly.

That of course will never happen.  Lower orders at the factory could cause Lionel to have even less control (is that possible?) of the quality of production.

I know they are not 21" cars like the topic of this thread, but I am seriously worried about what will be wrong with the Broadway Limited set I ordered.

I'm not going to go as far as saying I'm not ordering anything out of the new catalog, I will likely order some (comparatively) low $$ rolling stock items, but I have pretty much resolved I will not be going for any big ticket items.

-Dave

So packing them up and shipping back to dealer.  Going to lose my 10% deposit plus whatever the shipping costs. So I'll be out over $100 easy, probably closer to $150.  I informed them I've done business in the past. The Legacy GS4 was one of those past items and that they'll probably be losing a customer.  The response was "well ok"   It's disheartening to say the least after all the rave reviews I've seen about their customer service on these very forums.  I made them aware of that as well.

The only other option is to call Lionel again and see if they will refund but they told me on the phone these cars will not be repaired.  Ok so then how do you honor a warranty with that said?  Seriously I'm trying to understand that part, no sarcasm intended.

These cars were the last things I ordered new from Lionel and have stuck to used items since then with much better success. I am happy where my collection and number of trains and rolling stock is and looks like it will be that way for a long time.  I'm not insane so I will stop ordering thousands of dollars in products that arrive in not new appearance or operation.

I don't mean for this to come off as a negative rant but I got back into the hobby maybe 3yrs ago and have all Legacy and PS3 locomotives, close to 30 split about half and half between the two manufacturers.  I have had 4 Legacy locomotives in for warranty repair within a 2 week period as well as an Allegheny that had to go in 3 times after never being on the track for more than 10 minutes at a time. Others have came back operating the same as when they left and I went ahead and did my own repairs with better success.  so this is where all this frustration is coming from.  I take excellent care of my trains and handle them properly.  I have plenty of good things to say about some of them as well but the percentage of issues versus the amount that I own is quite upsetting.

That aside, everyone have a good weekend and hopefully you all have plenty of train time.

Sparky74 posted:

So packing them up and shipping back to dealer.  Going to lose my 10% deposit plus whatever the shipping costs. So I'll be out over $100 easy, probably closer to $150.  

 

Certainly not your fault these cars are defective.

With so many highly reputable dealers that require no deposit or commitment.

Why in the world would you order from one that does?

Even if Lionel made everything perfect ,I would still not put a deposit down.

I did not order the 21” SP cars  but did order the UP Excursion cars  fingers crossed for better quality  

guess it’s good I didn’t sell my MTH Smooth 18” Cars or my first issue Legacy GS4 would have definitely had nothing to pull.

and i was so encouraged as i just received the new Lionel Catalog in the mail!!  

Mark Bee posted:

I did not order the 21” SP cars  but did order the UP Excursion cars  fingers crossed for better quality  

 

guess it’s good I didn’t sell my MTH Smooth 18” Cars or my first issue Legacy GS4 would have definitely had nothing to pull.

Love the night lighting

GS class Northerns pulled everything but the Sunset - the only Budd cars the SP ever had.  They pulled a lot of olive green coaches, Pullmans, baggage cars and Railway Express cars.  A completely green train was more common than the Daylight cars at the end of steam.

Sorry you guys did not get accurate models.  Lionel has mostly been known for toys - maybe this is a move toward that customer base?

Working Saturdays for a long time for a local hobby shop it has become clear to me a couple of things.  The majority of issues with Lionel products is in top of the range items.  The vast majority of people buy train sets and lionchief engines and happily set up small layouts, run them on the floor, or around the tree.  For a brand new line of products, I am astounded by how few issues the Lionchief trains have had. 

Remember that we as high-end 3RS operators are the very, very small minority of the O gauge hobby, let alone the model train hobby as a whole.  The fact that Lionel even bothers to make high-end "scale" equipment when they could just make profit selling the mass market toy stuff is a plus for us.

Still, the issues with these new high-dollar items is inexcusable.  My HO scale friends can buy a scale sound and DCC equipped steam engine from Broadway Limited or Athearn for $300-$400 and expect near-100% prototypical accuracy and no QC issues at all, save for a grab iron or two falling off during shipment.  Meanwhile, my GS-4 MSRP'd at $1,700 and has some prototypical errors.  I keep wondering, why in the world do I stick with this stuff?  I guess I just like big, hefty O-gauge trains lol...

As for the Daylight...I have loved my GS-4 so far.  With the exception of the cab roof hatch on backwards (which was easily flipped around), it has been everything I would have hoped it would be.  Although, I do kind of wonder what I'm getting for $1,700 that an HO scale guy isn't getting for $400.  My cars also have the nameplate peeling away on about half of the cars, and a sticky coupler or two.  But they are a beautiful set and the faces of everyone who sees them on my layout makes it all worth it to me.  I really care less about the "inaccurate" whistle on the GS-4 or the corrugated roofs on the cars.  I love the sound of the whistle and the cars look great.  If I was worried about things like that, I wouldn't be playing with tinplate couplers and three over-sized rails.  But the QC really needs to up their game by about 500 times to merit the prices of these things.

My verdict: If you are interested in getting true prototypical accuracy, go do HO or N.  They've mastered the art far better than we could ever dream of doing in O, and they cost a ton less and tend to be more reliable.  If you just want to have fun and reliable trains, buy the lower-to-mid range toy-like stuff.  It's fun and less expensive.  If you want to keep on keeping on with the high-end O gauge "can't choose between toy-like and prototypical" like I am (for the time being), well, happy railroading to you...

...but seriously, Lionel needs to fix both their customer service and QC.

I just received my SECOND set of Lionel 6-83102 Southern Pacific Lines 21" passenger cars. They were inspected by the dealer before shipping.  I was particularly looking at the Observation since my first 4-car set had bad window glass.  Joey M. at Nicholas Smith Trains inspected the cars for me, so I know they were shipped in good shape and double-boxed.

The Observation arrived with a dangling rear truck that I believe is not the dealer or shippers fault.  The "C" clip that holds the rear truck on the car appears to be too small to grasp the post. The clip barely passed mid-point on the shaft.  Bumps in shipping or twists in handling the truck could easily pop off the "C"-clip.  (Please see photos and tell me what you think.)

Dean says they have not seen these cars yet at Lionel Service.  Here are pictures to prepare service.  Bigger "C"-clips should be available in the United States.  

While the Observation was open, I started painting the table clothes and sink.  I ordered $150 in paint from Alta Rail yesterday.  My local hobby shop, Parma Hobby, closed in August, 2016. So far I have painted 1,800 Preiser Seated people in O gauge for my passenger cars. (24x75 packs = 1800)   (I have also detailed 180 Walthers HO passenger cars, some I sold on Ebay.)

More pictures of "C"-clips:  Are the "C"-clips big enough?  One fell off the rear truck post of my second Lionel 6-83102  Southern Pacific Lines Observation.  I added more pictures because I could not get all to post earlier.

This is really sad, after over two years of waiting and Lionel still didn't get them right. No more preorders for me, and I may cancel my CSX set coming in. What a shame, Lionel seems to be driving customers straight out of this hobby. 

Lionel did not drive me out of the hobby, but they did drive me away from purchasing their products.  Scott Mann has to see these passenger cars and the manner in which Lionel is handling it as a gift that keeps on giving!  I know he will get my money now as result.

John Rowlen posted:

I just received my SECOND set of Lionel 6-83102 Southern Pacific Lines 21" passenger cars. They were inspected by the dealer before shipping.  I was particularly looking at the Observation since my first 4-car set had bad window glass.  Joey M. at Nicholas Smith Trains inspected the cars for me, so I know they were shipped in good shape and double-boxed.

The Observation arrived with a dangling rear truck that I believe is not the dealer or shippers fault.  The "C" clip that holds the rear truck on the car appears to be too small to grasp the post. The clip barely passed mid-point on the shaft.  Bumps in shipping or twists in handling the truck could easily pop off the "C"-clip.  (Please see photos and tell me what you think.)

Dean says they have not seen these cars yet at Lionel Service.  Here are pictures to prepare service.  Bigger "C"-clips should be available in the United States. 

Been following your posts as I am one of those waiting for the UP Excursion sets, as to which all should be revealed relatively soon.

You're obviously a very dedicated modeler but I must say I was surprised to see you have got another SP set. I assume that this is in substitution/exchange for the first one?

That C-clip looks standard size to me compared with other Lionel passenger car truck assemblies I have seen attached to the frame this way. They are difficult to take off and (especially) put back on because they can spring away from the slotted post they are meant to fit on. Nonetheless I have done it several times, the trick being to ensure that the ends of the clip are aligned with the slots and then using small pliers (needlenose) to squeeze the clip into position. I am not really sure that the clip you picture is the wrong size but I think instead it may not have been attached correctly at the factory.

Frankly I would regard this as a repair I could do myself annoying though it is to have to do so. If the clip really is too small I have found similar items in hardware shops that stock the usual variety of fasteners. 

Incidentally on another thread there is some interesting information that may explain why Lionel is not able to service this run of passenger cars: see https://ogrforum.com/...ar-from-the-dealers, third post from the end being the most informative.

Hancock52 posted:

Incidentally on another thread there is some interesting information that may explain why Lionel is not able to service this run of passenger cars: see https://ogrforum.com/...ar-from-the-dealers, third post from the end being the most informative.

Link broken.  Here is a good one.  I mistakenly thought it was deleted a minute ago.

-Dave