Lionel 224 Steamer - 1 year only?

Let's see the rear of the 224 cab, the rollers & sliding shoes on the tender, the tender drawbar, and the drawbar connection... these are all unique to the postwar 1945 224 as well.

In Lionel's war time production for the military there would have been extensive use of black phosphate finishes. On the other hand, nickel may have still been in short supply. This may be the reason for the black handrails. 

I would recommend the additional photos Rob ask for. In looking closely at the photos you provided the tender trucks do not appear to be the flying wing style. They may have been changed as the flying wing trucks were troublesome.  But this suggests a closer look may be wise. 

Nice example Sam. The engine, if correct, was part of the only set offered in 1945.

When you get a chance take a pic of the bottom of the engine and tender.

http://postwarlionel.com/compl...our-car-freight-set/

Pete

Pete is right....

That engine in that condition is hard to find. If you haven't run it yet, it's a very nice runner and the ol whistle tender bring back those post war years. My set is on display in my train room....

Here are the photos requested fellas. I appreciate your input

that 224 appears to be a 46 model.....rounded rear cab didn't appear till 46...although the blackened hand rails may suggest 45, its possible either lionel used up available blackened hand rail stock, or perhaps it was repaired by someone like Madison hardware early in its life?? still ...super clean cool piece

As previously noted, the shortage of metals like nickel in the post-war era was certainly a factor in Lionel's choice of coatings.  Further more, these PW shortages were also induced by government imposed rationing, still holding sway on who received such materials.  Lionel would not have been on an exclusive list of priority products needed by the public, such as cars,appliances,etc.  Spotty supply continued into the Korean war, when processes such as chrome plating were modified to reduce the amount of materials involved.  In certain cases, a flash plating of chrome was finish coated with clear lacquer, a practice that ended right around 1953.

Bruce

 

This is an interesting collection of parts. Its possible the engine is an early '46 that received blackened handrails. I think its factory due to the blackened stanchions. 

If this was an early '46 tender it should have flying shoe trucks with whirly wheels the same as the '45 tenders. Later in '46 the whirly wheels were replaced with thick axles. Likely the trucks were replaced when the flying shoes broke which was pretty common and the reason Lionel redesigned the trucks.

Pete

Interesting observations all, thanks. As I said, I have no good knowledge of its true history. Was part of a collection obtained from the daughter of someone I don't know.  Will let you all know how it runs when I get some track set up for a test. Am in my new home since mid June now but have had priorities that have prevented me from putting any time into the trains yet.

Its a very nice pair you have . Those particular 6 wheel baldwin wheel motors ran smooth like a singer sewing machine.

Later when they went to the spoke wheels it has been said the machining standard loosened up. I did have a few of those and they did not run as smooth and not as quiet in operation.

The rounded cab floor definitely places the engine from 1946. Left over 1945 black hand railings got dropped into 1946, not only for the 224 but even early 1666's, especially as the railings fit them equally well. The 1945 & 1946 224s came with tenders stamped 2466W, not a 2466WX as is pictured. The 2466WX was introduced in 1946, and the slide-shoe couplers (not flying shoe) on this tender are consistent for later production that year. Black hand railings do show up in 1946 tenders but only rarely and from the ones I've seen only with tenders with flying shoe couplers, which would be consistent with early production. This is a beautiful pair and would look great pulling a nice consist. It is an excellent score. As mentioned, the 224 is a superb runner. I suspicion the tender is a collection of parts assembled to resemble a 1945 2466W. A lot of 1945 production had numerous unique details making it hard to replicate, especially if the assembler isn't aware of them all.

Dan

Dashster posted:

...1945 production had numerous unique details making it hard to replicate, especially if the assembler isn't aware of them all.

The draw bar hole in the floor of the 2466W is often overlooked.

This is what the underside of a 224 made in 1945 looks like. Others have noted many of the unique features. One thing not mentioned is on the flying shoe trucks is the black fiber supports. Later trucks had a brown fiber support. 

Dashster posted:

The rounded cab floor definitely places the engine from 1946. Left over 1945 black hand railings got dropped into 1946, not only for the 224 but even early 1666's, especially as the railings fit them equally well. The 1945 & 1946 224s came with tenders stamped 2466W, not a 2466WX as is pictured. The 2466WX was introduced in 1946, and the slide-shoe couplers (not flying shoe) on this tender are consistent for later production that year. Black hand railings do show up in 1946 tenders but only rarely and from the ones I've seen only with tenders with flying shoe couplers, which would be consistent with early production. This is a beautiful pair and would look great pulling a nice consist. It is an excellent score. As mentioned, the 224 is a superb runner. I suspicion the tender is a collection of parts assembled to resemble a 1945 2466W. A lot of 1945 production had numerous unique details making it hard to replicate, especially if the assembler isn't aware of them all.

Dan

Great info.....  Thanks Dan.....

I see the front pilot wheels have been replaced with a Fast angle wheelset from a freight truck.

I kept looking at the front view thinking it was too tall and too close to the cowcatcher. I never spotted the angle or excess axle.

I once had a Lionel 1666E that also had the black handrails and it was an acknowledged variation from the same period as your 224. I should have kept it.....

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA

Great comments, all! This is definitely a 1946 production with the rounded cab platform, but I would not give too much credence to the black railing. The photos are not definitive, but from some photos it appears that the boiler was painted more recently than the cab area of the cast body. This appears most dramatically in the first and third photos. There are several paint scrapings and imperfections at the cab but the boiler is pristine, an unlikely combination, perhaps explained by a desire to retain the original 224 stamping. Chuck is spot on about the pilot truck, and as Dashster pointed out, the tender would have been a 2466W, not a 2466WX.

None of this detracts from the fact that the 224 is a beautiful runner, and this is a particularly beautiful 224. Good luck with it, Sam!

Norton posted:

Nice example Sam. The engine, if correct, was part of the only set offered in 1945.

When you get a chance take a pic of the bottom of the engine and tender.

http://postwarlionel.com/compl...our-car-freight-set/

Pete

Hi Pete....

I have that set but I notices something... The tank car on my set is a Sunoco gas, oils #2755. On the web site listing it lists a 2555 tank car, but looking at the picture it is a 2755. If you search that site a 2755 does not show up. Mine is definitely a Lionel product but is it unique to this set ?

Bruce...

Bruce, I saw that too. Pretty sure the website is wrong. The cars in the 1945 set have the pre war numbers though the lettering is reversed on the tank car. The pre war 2755 has the decals on the opposite side left to right. Also the automobile car is numbered 2758 in this set even though the box is numbered 2458.  

Lionel used the advertised numbers the following year. 

Pete

Hello to all and I have a 224 with black hand rails and square cab floor but on the trailing truck there is an brass adjustable screw what appears to  keep the truck and the draw bar for the tender at the correct height, I have never seen this on any others, I would really like to know the story behind it. Harrison White

A picture would be helpful, that said, I don't think I have seen anything like what you describe on any of my 224's or 224E's.  There is supposed to be a skirt under the rear of the cab fo rthat purpose, so yours may have been modified after the skirt was broken off...

Hello and I will take some pictures of it shortly. Thanks Harrison White

Here is the picture of the trailing truck

Hello all and if you look at the picture the block that the screw goes through is made into the casting and not added on. Thoughts

Interesting detail. I have a fleet of 224 engines and never seen/noticed that detail. Maybe I should check closer. If the trailing truck originally came on the engine, it would have been 1946 as lot of production items, in this case black hand railings and square-backed engines, were left over from 1945 and dropped into 1946. The short drawbar would never fit into a 1945 tender. But that nut/screw looking combination is definitely odd. Like many outliers, unless the exact history is known, it may never be known whether they were part of a Lionel experiment or altered by a do-it-yourselfer for a specific purpose. Without being able to examine it closely, here are some questions/thoughts that might shed some light. I can’t tell if there is a screw head on the bottom or another method to rotate the screw-like protrusion to vary it’s heighth, because that would seem to be its purpose.  If the screw is fixed in place, it just might have been the easiest way to attach it to the trailing truck. Check the contact rollers of the engine. Are they original? And how much wear do they have? I’d expect comparable pitting/wear on the bottom of the trailing truck where the screw would make contact. Most likely, it would be shaped in an arc where the point of contact changes as the engine rounds a corner. In unison, I’d carefully the examine the paint on the engine and trailing truck for signs of being repainted, like scrapes in paint that have been painted over. If the addition was done by a hobbyist, a fresh coat of paint may hide the evidence on the trailing truck. Because trailing truck swivels in an arc and the back of this engine is straight, I’m at least somewhat skeptical that it would be useful in keeping the distance between the wheels and the frame during a turn. But that protrusion might be useful when the engine goes straight through switches and crossovers of different manufactures where the wheels might bounce up from different surfaces. And, it might be useful for tender drawbars that have a hole in them to attach to. I think there are several prewar tenders that attached in that fashion. Another here's another detail that might give away where the engine fits into the timeline. Almost all 224s are held together with a screw through the smokestack that utilizes a Phillips head. The very last part of production in 1946 often had a slotted screw instead. I have to admit, I can think of several reasons why this might be added by an operator, and no reason why Lionel might experiment with it, especially with a proven design during the last year of production. . . . but that is hardly definitive.  I hope this helps.

Dan

Somewhat off topic-

I have a 1946 726 that has black handrails and nickle stanchions. The 2426 tender does not, but it was collected separetly.

I suspect someone drilled a hole installed a screw with a square nut there. Keep in mind there is already a factory provided spring for the purpose of keeping the truck down and the drawbar up.  You can see that in your picture as well.

As far as handrails (old post) I have a prewar 1664 that uses the same boiler casting as a 1666 that has blackened handrails, so the black handrail is left over prewar parts stock. The rear trailing truck screw is owner applied, not factory.

Good Evening gentlemen and all of you are correct, I backed out the brass screw and that painted nut fell off and sure enough you can plainly see it has been drilled, but fortunately I do have the correct one to install on it. I want to thank all for the input to clear up all of the questions I had and I thank you again for the wealth of information. Harrison White