lionel 4-4-2 resurrection - Running again - see latest update!

That's frustrating, to say the least...

What symptoms was your 8304 showing? Mine tends to run fine for about 15-20 minutes, then it will gradually slow down and stop. It will then run, in a somewhat jerky fashion, if given a push. Let it sit for a few hours, and it starts all over again. This happens even while pulling only the 3 passenger cars that came with the set...

Ya know Mike that's even more frustrating.  It wasn't a really bad runner, I just wanted to make it better.  The e-unit would lock up sometimes, and like I said, it was just kinda jerky.  I did find that the commutator was kinda dirty, but by then I was determined to modernize the thing.  I thought I had it all sorted out and was prepared to post about my victory in bringing it back to life when the board smoked.  Such a frustrating exercise.

time to regroup, and hit it again tomorrow! these set backs suck, but you'll figure it out. I picked up an 8304 in The Broadway set this summer, and the 8304 runs great, even the Mighty Sound of Steam works!

for now..is there anyway to bypass the reverse board and just run it forward?

Since you have a DC motor in it now, you can use a very cheap reverse board that's probably smaller than the Dallee board and should fit.

 

I still have the Dallee board but because it built on both sides it still won't fit.  I'm going to try a replace in kind lionel board if I can get one. 

 

Also, I think I know what might have happened.  I was concerned about the connections on the back of the isolation switched touching the shell.  Not having any liquid electrical tape on hand, I tried to slip some shrink wrap tube over the direction lock out switch and heat it with a cigarette lighter.  I think I might have over heated the switch which the caused the failure on the board.  This is all speculation without a board schematic but the circuit that are failed are right next to where the direction switch is attached.  I just don't want to fry another board!

The original problem is probably the brush springs. After running awhile, they get hot and loose some tension and the motor keeps running slower and slower. Cool off and the cycle repeats. A new pair of brush springs should perk up that 8304.

Was there a reason you did not want to put the board in the tender and run a 4 wire harness for this?  Starter steam are pretty hard to upgrade to electronics and keep it all in the engine.  That was a valiant attempt.  G

Honestly this seemed so simple.  It was just a transplant.  All the major fasteners lined up, nothing to rewire.  Heck doing it this way I wasn't even planning on warming up the soldering iron until I ran into the one capacitor that wouldn't fit.  I've run wires to the tender before but this just seemed simpler.  And besides, the whole donor engine was $50.  If I could just figure out how for sure how I fried the board it still wouldn't so bad.  Since I'm still stuck is a hotel 7 hours from home, today's project will be to modify the old tender shell to fit over the new frame. 

 

I never liked the sounds of steam anyway, so this way I'll at least have an air whistle.

Update - at least I go the tender swapped! 

 

Of course the way the shell mounted was completely different - so plenty of internal trimming needed to be done along with adding something for the screws to grab through the new chassis.  (Yes I could have switched the broken sound-of-steam to the air whistle on the old chassis but that would meant trying get the old speaker stand off and also breaking the wires to air whistle.  Since I don't have a way to swap out riveted trucks right now, this was just the easiest way to go.)

 

So here are a few more pics.  The air whistle may be quite and antiquated but at least I can claim some victory for the weekend.

 

If I understand correctly, you've decided to eventually install the reverse unit into the tender.  Adding one more wire into the tether, from the center rail pickup on the tender truck to the motor will not only improve overall continuity but help the engine negotiate certain switches without stalling.

 

Bruce

I always liked the MPC-era 4-4-2s, and actually did a swap like this... I put the guts from a 1984-vintage 8402 into a 1980 vintage 8008 (which was part of a DC-only set, with a boiler shell identical to your 8304.)  I used all of the valve gear, etc. from the original 8008 because it was nicer looking.

 

I don't remember tapping any holes.  But on BOTH the 8008 and 8402, I remember some black cloth tape over the ends of the motor and electronic E-unit, to stop any exposed leads from shorting to the shell.

 

The chassis I'm familiar with is mounted the same way, but the motor has a white nylon end bearing surface.  I've never seen one of these starter loco motors with a yellow nylon end plate, or those tiny orange caps (which obviously make it more difficult to fit.)  Do these make it run faster because it's NASCAR?  What's the purpose of the capacitors??

 

In any event I would grind the inside of your 8304 shell a little to create some extra clearance, and then put heavy-duty electrical tape over anything that might potentially short to the shell.  If you need to buy another reverse board, they should be available from Lionel for less than $20, and snap right into the plastic carrier which sits between the frames.  Good luck!  -Ted

Bruce - actually I plan to continue to do this the way I started.  With a replacement board there is no reason not to keep the board in the engine.

 

Ted - I'm not sure what's up with the capacitor except maybe a smoother start.  You make a good point about insulating the inside of the shell, it couldn't hurt.  Instead of regular tape I think I'll look for some liquid electrical tape to brush on the inside of the shell.  I don't want to grind any more than I already have, I'm started to get worried about coming through.

 

Thanks Guys

I am not familiar with the newer Dallee board, but it may be an all DC circuit like the newer stuff.

 

I a confused on what you did, did you go to a straight DC motor frame to replace an AC side frame motor?  If so, you could have used a Lionel original 103 or now 107 reverse unit.  They slide in between the frames in a holder that mounts to the frame.

 

Hard to tell on that Dallee, but that may be the motor FETs that blew, or they may just be logic chips.

 

I would make sure the switch solder joints did not contact shell.  Also the motor looks like part of it is grounded to chassis, that may be ok when the power to the track was DC, but it should not be grounded to chassis when using a reverse unit powered by AC.

 

Again just ideas from what I am seeing.  Hope that helps.  G

For my money, I think you would have been better off to send the original motor from the #8304 to Chuck Sartor & he would have had it running well for you again. I hope you can get the results you wanted.

 

jhz563

The failed part is the motor driver FET.  This would be caused by a brush touching the chassis, or a load (excessive current on a bad motor) on the FET.  I may have a spare board in the shop, so email me and I will help you off line.

 

When you get a new board - try just hooking power and the motor up first, then see if it runs.  Add the headlamp, and then the smoke unit.  **important** the smoke unit element must not be tied to the chassis or common on both leads.  Full isolation is required and the element must be 18ohms.  Otherwise the smoke system electronics will burn up as well.

 

 

Back in 1980, Lionel made a Chessie System 4-4-2 (same  type as 8142, 8304 etc) with a DC can motor. Not sure how they changed the existing 4-4-2 loco to use the DC can motor.  Think this was the only 4-4-2 loco with this style to use the DC can motor, as the next year the UP 4-4-2 went back to the AC motor.

Chuck, that's something I hadn't thought of. I'll try a new set of brush springs and see what happens.  I have an 8142 that had the opposite problem- the brush springs had too much tension and were causing the brushes to drag on the commutator, making it run very sluggishly. I bent them back a bit and it ran better... Until it pitched its traction tire. Gotta pick some up.

As for the original issue, I may pick up a newer can-motored 4-4-2 in PRR lettering for "everyday" running with the Broadway cars, and keep the 8304 original.  I have the 8617 NKP version and it's a strong runner.

Mike,

  just a word of caution, the brush spring in my 8304 and others are soldered in, making them a bit of a challenge to change.  It's not impossible, but it is difficult to hang onto the spring and get it soldered in at the same time.

 

John Z

I took my 8304 apart a few days ago and I see what you mean about the springs being soldered in.  I also pulled the brush plate and cleaned everything, and gave the springs a little inward bend while I was at it.  I've run the engine pulling 6 MPC cars and a caboose for 30-45 minutes every evening since, and so far it's running fine (knock on wood).

 

Any updates on yours?

I've got a new board coming from the best possible source.  However I'm currently working 10 to 14 hrs / day including Saturday.  If it shows up by Saturday I'll work on it Sunday.

 

glad to hear yours is working well!

Yea Yea Yea!! I finally got back to my on going little project to modernize my lionel 8304 steamer.  After getting ahead of myself previously and accidentally shorting out the donor control board. 

 

With some serious help of Jon Z from ERR - thanks again Jon - I got a new board that was a close but not quite perfect fit and figured out how to make it work.  Now, with copious amounts of hot glue and electrical insulation I finally have a working engine, complete with forward, neutral, reverse operation, a smoke unit that isn't clapped out, and an air whistle in place of the sounds of steam tender.  It needs a little more breaking in time but overall work and looks great!

 

Nice to go into the new year with this one completed.

 

 

Nice!

 

Congratulations on your success!

 

kool project!  I've been collecting a few of these 4-4-2 loco's, since they're nice little engines.  Was able to upgrade one to TMCC using ERR boards.  I put the board in the empty tender (no sounds), and ran their connector cable to the motor.  runs great for an engine I found at a flee market for $15!  glad to see yours running again!  

Really satisfying when a project like this comes together. Nice job.

Glad you were able to make it work!!

jhz, I'm curious... does the new NASCAR-donated motor "stick" or "cog" when you turn the wheels by hand?  Great job following through and finishing the project!  (I wish I had a greater success rate in that area myself!)

Thanks for sharing!  -Ted

---

Yes it does stick just a little bit. It doesn't seem to affect it when running but it is not as smooth as the older frame when you turn it by hand. 

 

glad your project worked out. I'm really liking my 8304. Even the Mighty Sound of Steam works.

Just a post to keep this thread alive. 

 

After running my transplanted engine for a while I am totally unhappy with it!

 

The newer lionel drive system has excessive slop in it that causes the engine to intermittently run rough or nearly hop!  On further examination I found the drive gear and wheels/axles have so much slop you can nearly disengaged the drive gear teeth from the teeth on the wheel! 

 

I am now back to doing what I wanted to do in the first place, putting a new motor in the old frame.  I am actually going to use the motor out of the donor engine, along with the wiring and smoke unit.  After that the donor drive frame is going the trash - I wouldn't wish that piece of junk on anybody!  Ted, i now see exactly what you mean.

Hm.  Those MPC-era 4-4-2s are hard-luck cases.  Only one out of the six I have is really a good runner.  The stock motor seems to run hot, they slow down, and then the e-unit gets balky.  Also, they're geared for speed: very clumsy for switching and low-speed maneuvers.  It's like that 4-wheel aluminum chassis was never meant to carry the weight of a 2037 shell.  It's shame too, because these are good looking locos, a nice size for sharp curves, and quite affordable.

 

Let me offer another suggestion:  If you can obtain a motor from a postwar 249 (1958 plastic-bodied scout with the red stripe) and manage to transplant the driving wheels from your original engine, you might get a satisfactory outcome.  Of course you'll need a wheel puller to do this job, and it would be easier with a press (like the Hobby Horse) and wheel cups.  I've also heard that MPC-era wheels are difficult to pull, and fit more tightly on the axle than postwar sintered iron wheels.

 

Final option: sell the 4-4-2 and get a postwar 2037.  You'll lose the sound of steam, but you end up with a similarly-styled loco that looks and runs better.  Keep us posted.  -Ted

If you get tired of messing with it, you could throw it in a box and send it to me.

 I can repair it back to factory fresh.

 Chuck

I appreciate the sentiment, but no - after all the time I have into it, this is now war!

That's exactly what G&G Model Shop in Houston did to revive my 8304 back in the day.

I sent this note to Ted, transformers have a lot do do with the running. Modern electronic transformers ( like the CW80 ) don't like older AC motors. They cause the motors to run hot and growl because of the chopped sine wave. If your not already, try a earlier MPC or postwar transformer.

did you save any of the original boards in tender for the sounds that came with the 8304 . i have this exact same engine, but my sound chuffing board has quit as it has been sitting for almost 30 years. I've since got in to bigger steam engines and was going to fix my sound board unless i can find one out of a  engine like yours!My engine runs great but the original e unit was either forward or reverse ,but long ago i took out the original "E" unit and put in the old Lionel forward neutral reverse drum type and that's what been in the engine ever since.maybe the board has 4 or 5 transistors and a couple of filters to make a kind of hissing chuffing sound. i might fix the board,unless i find one out of a engine , then I'll probably sell the engine ounce it's fixed correctly.

Good luck with yours. let me know if you still saved the board that was originally in the tender! the only reason i have not fixed the board i got hooked on MTH engine love there sound effects and are much more realistic than the old 8304 lionel!

 

Alan

I have working SOS boards if JHZ doesn't have his anymore.

 Chuck

I have the board but was not really careful in removing it.  I find sound of steam chuff sounds insanely annoying and have no intention of resurrecting those noises.

 

The original problem was that the engine ran poorly and only had a two position reverse unit that also operated poorly.  I wanted and still want to get some fairly modern performance out of an older beast and I will. 

 

Also the engine will never be sold as my father enjoyed seeing it run and he is no longer on this earth to enjoy it or anything else. I will either make this work with a transplanted motor or will end up mounting the shell on a LC+ frame if it will fit.

So once again my venerable 8304 is on the rails!!

 

After the initial transplant of the current nascar offering 4-4-2 workings into the 8304 I was very unhappy not with how the engine worked electronically, but how it ran mechanically.  It turns out that while the frame hasn't changed much in 40 yrs, the gearing has.  The gearing in the new offering is thinner and had much more side to side play than the original.  In fact so much slop is present in the gearing on the model I received that the gears can nearly become disengaged, causing the engine to run rough around corners.  Some times it seems to even run rough when on tangent track. 

 

Well having already piled a bunch of labor into this beast this performance simply wouldn't do.  Assuming the role of Dr. Frankenstein once again I dissembled both engine frames and yanked the can motor and electronics of the donor frame and reinstalled them on the original frame using all the original gears.  Sloppy fit problem resolved itself and once again I now have an off switch for the smoke unit and a direction lock and most importantly, no annoying e-unit buzz.

 

So please feel free to watch the attached short video of an 8304 with new motor, new brains and original drive mechanism. 

 

Note - I did consider waiting for the new lionchief scout set to come out and using the interior from the scout with my 8304 shell.  However having watched a video of one in action it was bopping up and down like the toonerville trolley.  So for the time being this is how the engine will stay.  fyi- the frame from the old motor is still in place but I had to cut off the field wires in order to have enough room to snake the smoke unit and headlamp wires through the chassis - no going back now!!