Lionel

It is a GE E60.

Probably made by Williams:

Here is another forum post on your Williams model:

https://ogrforum.com/...-an-old-williams-e60

Thank you. It's made by Lionel.

Plyux posted:

Thank you. It's made by Lionel.

I'm interested as to why you think it is made by Lionel. Have you found a stamping or label that indicates such?

The drive may be cobbled together from Lionel parts, but the body is Williams.  Lionel never made an E60 electric.

Rusty

No question it's Williams I got one in the 70's...it was meant to use Lionel F3 trucks and E-Unit...yours has the 200 series Alco or switcher trucks.... I have the instructions ,can send you a copy....Joe

Joe is spot on.  I too bought one from Charles Ro in the late seventies.  I believe it had F3 type trucks.  It could be had with one or two motors, which were Lionel Pullmor motors.  While the model was attractive, especially in those days of scarce contemporary motive power, the pantographs left something to be desired.  Anyone who knows what I am talking about will agree.  

You have the Lionel 200 series Alco Motors on your Williams Unit.

Early Williams required the buyer to add his own motor, this also included Standard Gauge models. Even the TCA's 25th Anniversary GG-1 was unpowered.

As a footnote, and I am sure that most here know this, but Williams later produced the E60 using their own EMD (as on their E7) trucks; dual can motors and the usual modern setup. Very nice locos, and the EMD trucks at least approximate the looks of the real E60's GE 3-axle trucks. 

The Williams E60 body, though, is "accurate", but is much-compressed, compared with the prototype.

It wouldn't be a huge project to get one and a spare E60 body, lengthen/spice the frame and splice the bodies appropriately and have a reasonably representative scale E60. This is not an original observation.

LESS POWER TRUCKS means that someone just grabbed a spare Lionel ALCo FA frame with power trucks to attach to it.

A more realistic looking power truck source would be the LIONEL O gauge compressed GE U36C frame with trucks. The only problem is the handrails might be riveted on the frame and need to be removed.

Andrew

Since the undecorated Williams Trains E60 locomotive shell was a separately sold item, how will you paint and decal it? 

Andrew

My Willionel PRR E60.

Williams sold the cabs and a sheet metal frame without motors, e units, and lights as a "kit".  The initial instructions suggested using the "guts" from MPC GP's.  Could make either single or double motored engine with ease.  Using trucks from F3 or Alco engines required required extra work to remove pilot parts.

The original kit recommended using the Lionel Geep trucks.  At the time there was an over supply of the Lionel units.  A few E60s were sold by Williams with left over FM trucks and frames from the dupes he made of Lionel FMs.  They are easy to recognize because the FM frames were too wide and the cab sits on top of the bend at the edge of the frame.   And, some of the E60s have the later Lionel six wheel trucks.  Personally I have yet to see one with F3 trucks.  That probably made less sense because the F3s were more valuable.

artyoung posted:

Early Williams required the buyer to add his own motor, this also included Standard Gauge models. Even the TCA's 25th Anniversary GG-1 was unpowered.

The TCA 25th GG1 was not un-powered.  It was definitely under powered.  The second motor could be purchased separately.  The e unit was also a separate sale item.

   I've seen ads for unpowered 25thTCA but the one Gramps had was one motor, no E-unit, no horn. No way Gramps would have modded that with only one motor and no E-unit... there would've been another "as shipped" before than would happen.

Even when not offered, Jerry was at least looking for the right motors, but only at the right price too.  If he thought it was easier for you to decide, that's what would happen; at least that's what I gathered as a young man observing phone calls between the two from the controls 

 He put a lot of effort into testing the carbodies with various power units. I got to put some time on 2 of the prototypes that Gramps had been entrusted to put test hours on.  One had the first in-train rectifier I ever saw... and also the first heatsink I ever burnt a finger on   The heat was way higher but it was a more versatile motor at a better cost; liking series or parallel wiring.  I liked the performance of the open frame better, though I didn't get to test them side by side and heavily loaded, just a half dozen SF passenger cars early on in breaking them in, then after the major testing was done.

 Those shiny brass engines were sooo pretty.  The thank you gift was a permanently coupled ABBA. You needed a partner to take it down and rail it   I recall Gramps saying thank you, then joking he was going to keep them all anyhow because he ditched the ABBA tube, and couldn't find a box to fit it in... 😏

  I like it in black. Like a stretched E-44 that got a stealthy facelift.

  The Amtrak silver always made think Star Trek or "Space: 1999" more than "train". It hardly matters what engine it is; I can't help it 😁

I think I'd slip some putty in the pant. screw slots & dot them with color; but other than that the PC-Worm or NH decals IMO.... N&W.. ala Jawn Henry?.. Not known for electric except the Virginian, but a neat black beast anyhow.

(you should be able to poke the paint off and run the screw slots clean with a screwdriver later... I've done it with chaulky spackle as a filler too.)

I have attached pictures showing the Williams E60 electric with Lionel MPC geep trucks, the Lionel six wheel trucks and the Williams FM frame and trucks.  You will notice the FM frame is bent up on the ends to compensate for the shorter E60 shell.  It is also wider.  In the comparison Amtrak picture you can see the shell sits high on the frame.  There is a broadside showing the sale of running E60s with FM running gear.  Lastly the original adv. to TCA members for the powered GG1.

Jerry Williams told me when I asked him why he didn't sell them with trucks and motors was because the can motors were too tall and couldn't fit in the shell. I have one that Williams sold with a single can motor only in the end without the Pantographs, the other truck is unpowered.

In 1976 when the E60s came out Williams had no motors or trucks.  He had not made the investment into that part of his product line.  That is why the MPC trucks, motors and e units were critical to the success of the E60 sales.  Same holds true for the Metroliner.  The early ones are all sitting on MPC trucks and propelled by MPC motors.