Lionel 6-14209 Gantry Crane -poor rotation

There is a o ring in the inside of the motor box.  Not to hard to get at, only 2 screws then when the unit comes down there is 3 tabs to open up.  Use a small jewelerys screw driver to get the one furthest away from the other two then it is like a hinge to open up.  The o ring is inside.  Lionel I don't think stocks them anymore ,but if you go to a hardware store like Tru value, and ask for a #22 or #23 O ring they are suppose to work.  The size is approx. 1 and 1/16 inch x 1/16inch, or 1 and 1/8inch x 1/16 inch.  You might as well clean out the old sticky greas and use some red and tacky to re grease the unit.  Not hard to do I just did this to my crane about 2 weeks ago.  Good Luck.

If the problem occurs when in the same switch position on the controller, I would be looking inside that.

Dave

Thanks for you advice Laz and Dave. Aldo actually wrote in trying to help me. This Crane is a brand new unit.  It rotates poorly and draws a lot of voltage in one direction - and - rotates beautifully in the other direction.  AND  It will raise fine but lowers very poorly. This means that both motors are only working well in one direction. (The rotating motor AND the raise and lower motor). That has me wondering what is going on with this thing.  After a few times it will buzz and not work at all in the bad directions. A short time later it will start working again but with the same problems. After reversing the wires from the transformer, the opposite happens. So Dave. The control levers are in different positions at this point.  I did as you suggested. Dis-assembled the unit, got the "door" opened enough to look in. Couldn't get the door off and out of the way. Was afraid to damage something so I stopped at that point.   Saw the belt or O ring.  Seems good. Couldn't get the door opened enough to do much so I chickened out and quit.  Didn't see any grease in there.  Just saw the small pulley from the motor and the larger pulley with the band around it.  At this point I decided to get it back together. Might have to turn it into the experts. Pretty disappointed I couldn't get it any better.

ANG,

  You were there with getting it opened.  After getting the front tab opened the two in the back will sorta hinge and then open up, just pull up near the two tabs while pressing in on the lower part.  After you get it opened, yes you will see the belt and the large pulley in the rear, and the worm gear, that will come up and clean off the gunk that was old stiff grease, and re grease it.  I had the same thing It would go great in one direction and not the other also in the up and down hoisting.  That grease inside turns to a waxy gunk, and gets clogged up.  Not a big job.  Hope this works for you.

aldo65 posted:

 I then switched the wires on the controller and now the poor rotation is the other direction.

I'm trying to understand.  Are you saying it rotates left-to-right and lifts OK but fails right-to-left and lowering.  Then you switch wires and it now rotates right-to-left and lowers OK but fails left-to-right and lifting?

Or is the poor rotation always in the same direction and swapping wires means you lever the switch to the other side to get the previous direction of motion?

Laz, Thanks for your assistance with this crane.  I just joined this Forum to get some help and do appreciate your time. Don't know if I'm going to try again or give it to the experts at Chicagoland Hobby. Might talk to them next week. I felt like I was getting close but couldn't finish getting the cover off. It seems like the large pulley was coming off with the cover and I didn't want to stretch the rubber belt so I quit. Also, There is a thin black wire that goes from one motor to  a rivet in the base. This wire is so short that you are working on the motor/gearbox only 1/2 inch away from the base. This is one reason why I couldn't finish getting the cover off. I wonder if the professionals in the field cut this wire - and then splice it back together when they re-assemble it. That would be better then messing around with the rivet. You can splice the wire with a longer one for future repairs. That would sure make working on the belt and grease a lot easier if you can actually removed the assembly from the crane. Laz, You are pretty good if you managed to do this yourself without any problems. 

ALDO ---- I will tell you Exactly what happens.  To simplify the explanation -  When I say right or left I am referring to the labels on the crane control. Moving the lever to the label that says Right or moving the lever to the label that says Left. I adjust the transformer to 14volts A.C. as the instruction manual states.  I hook the power wire from the transformer to the crane wire with the white stripe.  Negative wire from the transformer to the crane wire that is solid black.

The crane then turns Right perfectly and turns Left very poorly.   Also, It goes Up well and comes Down very poorly.

Then I switch the wires.  Negative from transformer to crane black wire with the white stripe. Power wire from transformer to crane solid black wire.

Then the crane turns Left perfectly  and turns Right very poorly. Also, It does Down well but Up poorly.

After trying it a few times it will not turn or raise/lower at all. It just makes noise and nothing happens. It will work fine one way and actually lock up trying to go the other way.   After a few minutes it will then work again but with the same problems.  Not overheating it or over using it.  This occurs after just a few test runs.

It seems like both motors or gearboxes have issues.  One is for rotation and one is for raising and lowering.  That is why I'm worried about this problem.  What Laz recommends is something that is Positively worth doing. A good tune up on both gearboxes would at least eliminate the old grease or bad belt issue.  According to what I found out, Even though this crane is new it was last cataloged in 2005.  So it is possibly a brand new 10 year old unit.  That could cause a problem with old caked up grease and dried out belts.  Again guys. Thanks for everything. I won't give up on the crane and you 2 don't give up on me. Aldo, thanks again for your offers. I'm trying hard to fix this thing. Joined the Forum. Worked on it late last night. I'll maybe try again if I hear more information from Laz or the rest of the Forum. It's really cold and snowing out right now so I don't mind being inside trying to learn.          Angelo

I

Ang posted:

...

The crane then turns Right perfectly and turns Left very poorly.   Also, It goes Up well and comes Down very poorly.

Then I switch the wires.  Negative from transformer to crane black wire with the white stripe. Power wire from transformer to crane solid black wire.

Then the crane turns Left perfectly  and turns Right very poorly. Also, It does Down well but Up poorly.

Hi ANG,

  My problem was about the same, it happened on a Bethlehem Steel Gantry crane, with the clamshell bucket.  The rotation was slow and didn't work unless you kept going back and forth to sorta break it in.  But that took about 5 minutes of coaxing.  I was told what to do by other forum members and finally took it apart and fixed the problem.  There should be a small screw that will give you some slack to work on the motor units, just unscrew that screw .  Here is a search I did on the Forum that maybe could help you a bit more.  Hope this works for you.  Please let us know how you made out.

https://ogrforum.com/t...and-poor-performance

The Intermodal crane has a control box with diodes and resistors, maybe this one is the same.  The fact that swapping leads changes which mechanical operation has issues, suggests that's the place to look.

It sounds like diodes in the controller are faulty & bleeding AC to the DC can motor.

Yep Rob, and real easy to fix.

You guys are great.  Thanks everyone.  Since switching the feed wires switches the problems I do wonder if it is electrical versus a mechanical issue.  The control box does have a circuit board. I wish it was just wires and switches like the "old" days. At least I would know how to check it then.  I have to figure out how to get the rubber knobs off of the control levers and then I can take a better look at the circuit board.  From the bottom - everything looks good. If I get it apart I will try to add a picture as Stan2004 suggested. GUNRUNNERJOHN is correct about electronic components in the control box. ADCX ROB, if diodes are leaking current the wrong direction that could be the problem.  I'm hesitant to try but I wonder if I can put DC current to this thing??????  Laz1957 I will look into that link later. I'm going to try to get the control box apart and look at the topside of the circuit board.

I'd let us see some pictures of the top and bottom of the board before putting any juice to anything.  Make sure they're high enough resolution and in focus so we can see components.

Everything looks good.  If I operate the crane while circuit board is exposed will a defective component get hot??

There are also diodes or some component on the motors under the crane too.

Ang posted:

... I'm hesitant to try but I wonder if I can put DC current to this thing??????

You can but I'm not sure what additional info it would provide.  The controller box circuit board converts the incoming AC (alternating polarity) to DC (single-polarity) and steers the DC to the motor with the polarity to rotate the DC motor in the desired direction.   If the controller box receives DC (single-polarity) to begin with, it can only deliver that same polarity so each motor could only rotate in one direction.

I understand Stan. Good Explanation.  I took a picture of the component attached to the motors too.

I understand Stan. Good Explanation.  I took a picture of the component attached to the motors too.

I tested the 4 diodes in the control box with an ohmmeter. All 4 of them only have continuity one way. 2 of them have about 2.2 ohms resistance - 1 of them has 1.4 ohms resistance and 1 has 1.9 ohms.  But all 4 only work in one direction.

There are also diodes or some component on the motors under the crane too.  I think this might be a capacitor??

Ang posted:

There are also diodes or some component on the motors under the crane too.  I think this might be a capacitor??

Yes.  Per your earlier photo that's a capacitor.  You can see the letters "BP" on it which means it's a Bi-Polar capacitor so it can accept voltage of either polarity which of course is what happens when reversing the motor direction of a DC motor.

Ang posted:

Everything looks good.  If I operate the crane while circuit board is exposed will a defective component get hot??

Well, no hotter than if the circuit board is unexposed.    

Like you say, it visually looks good and it's such a simple circuit.  This is quite puzzling.  Nothing pops out at me (yet).

Do you have another transformer handy?  For lack of a better idea, and not to send you on a snipe hunt, but I'm wondering if a few minutes of experimenting with a different AC source might provide insight.

I do have another transformer Stan.  Wouldn't hurt to try it and see what happens.  I will hook it up to my MTH Z-4000 and then post the results. 

Given that those are five cent diodes, why not just replace the lot?  A 1N4003 will do nicely, that will eliminate the diodes.  Given the symptoms, that's a good first step.

OH MY GOD!!!.  Stan........you are amazing.  Thinking outside the box.   I hooked it up to my Z-4000 and it appears to be working perfectly!   Unbelievable how much time I have in this crane and for some reason it didn't like my MRC. I want to thank EVERYBODY FOR EVERYTHING. The Z-4000 has the digital voltmeter and rotation in either direction, and, raising the magnet up or down didn't change the reading at all.  Activating the magnet AND rotating the crane caused the voltage to  drop from 14.0 to 13.1. Very acceptable. The crane is smooth and quiet now.  Just rotating the crane on the other transformer the crane sounded very scratchy - and dropped me to 12 volts (from 14) and that was without the magnet being activated.  I will re-assemble everything and play with it some more later on.  I have to eat dinner and then go out and shovel snow.  I have a Z-4000 in my main area of the basement and the MRC at my work bench.  Never Ever ran into something like this before. I am so grateful for all the help and extremely pleased I don't have to have it repaired.  I will sleep well tonight.  I will get the crane back together soon and get back to this post to reaffirm this success.  Thank you to everyone that took the time to help me out. Now that I am a member of this forum I can only hope that someday I can repay the favor by helping out some other members.    Best Wishes  --  Angelo          

Actually it was your comment about trying a DC input that got me thinking there might be some kind of asymmetrical behavior in your AC source! 

Needless to say, you might want to take a look at your MRC controller.  Per their website it ought to have enough beef to drive the crane and then some...

I will look into it. I don't think it's a lack of power. This transformer has 2 terminals in the back so I can hook up a speaker. Then you can make steam or diesel sounds through the transformer. The slide switch is for the whistle or horn depending on the position of the black switch on the top right side of the transformer. The picture shows, and I noticed that both of the round controls are on slightly. (Both the volume and the rate adjustment). Also the whistle slide switch is partially activated. Without the speaker hooked up these controls do nothing. However I wonder if these controls being partially on, even without the speaker, causes some type of interference that bothered some circuit in the crane. All those controls should only go through the speaker. Don't think they would have anything to do with the track voltage terminals. Maybe it's just some type of compatibility issue.  Just a thought.  What a strange chain of events. I put the control box back together, looked everything over, and then tried the crane one more time using my Z-4000.  Works Great!  I also have an old Lionel LW. Someday when I have that transformer out I should try the crane with that one.  I'm not putting it back on the MRC. Not even to test out my theory.  I'm going to quit now while everything works.   Thanks again to you and the other members . I appreciate the time you spent on my problem.  Have a good week.               Angelo

I had no idea you were using an MRC pack.  Those MRC packs are notorious for bleeding DC current into the track output in their older age. It has something to do with the whistle/horn circuitry... I have tried to fix it by replacing every diode on the control board but that did not work.

Try testing a postwar whistle tender with your MRC and see if the whistle runs all the time.

I had no idea there were issues with the MRC Transformers.  I keep that one on my bench and use it to test and repair items. The first post you made - you were concerned with the wrong type of current bleeding through the controller. Here it might be the current bleeding through the transformer. Unbelievable.  I have a post war whistle tender. I will get it out of storage and try what you suggested later tonight.  Thanks Rob.          Angelo

Rob,  I put my 2046W from 1952 on the test track with the MRC Transformer.  If I cranked up the voltage the whistle worked . Now,  I did hear a slight hum coming from the tender anytime the track was powered up. At this point I figured you were right on the money.  But - I then put the tender on my track with the Z-4000.  Same results. Whistle did work if I put 15 volts to the track but I had a slight hum coming from the tender on that track too. Don't know if this tells you anything useful but that is the results of your suggestion.          Angelo

Way to go ANGELO.  Glad it works for you.  These GUYZ are Wizards here.

Thanks Laz,  I learned a lot this week-end.  About different transformer reactions to my new accessory and about the O Gauge Forum.  It's a nice "community" of train experts.  I am really impressed by the knowledge that you and the rest of the guys have about the hobby. I bought the Gargraves Gantry Crane Track and will someday try to build the unit that moves the crane back and forth.  I think I'll let my head clear awhile first.  Ha!        Angelo