Lionel 6-82768 C&O Allegheny #1604 returned from Lionel and doesn't run properly. What is wrong?

Here is the Second Video with the Odyssey Speed Control OFF.  The sound is different, like old Rail Sounds.

I am showing the Odyssey because the speed step "22" is consistent, like the engine was programmed to do this.  A loose Flywheel might affect the engine, but would it be consistent and precise?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Here is a Third Video of the 6-83768 C&O Allegheny #1604.  The video shows the full range of speed steps from 0 to 125 with the Odyssey Speed Control ON.

Does anyone have an idea why this engine serviced by Lionel is doing this?

My next engine will be the AC-12 Southern Pacific #4294 that came back from Lionel Service missing the front Pilot and coupler assembly.  It was on the engine when I sent it to Lionel.  I bought a replacement that arrived bent, so I bought the last AC-12 Pilot Lionel Parts had.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

It came back with a note that said "This is the best I could do." 

That is unacceptable and insulting. Lionel owes you a locomotive. 

I'd send it back with a note to shove it where the sun don't shine. They would have forever lost my business right then and there. 

When a locomotive under warranty falls into the "best that I could do " category it is time for a refund or replacement.

First off I think if I were you, I would change train companies.  I have yet to see you post a positive experience with Lionel.  While I don't doubt you have had issues, your experience with Lionel tells me that you are either a glutton for punishment or enjoy throwing away money.  My experience has been mostly positive across all companies.  Maybe I'm just lucky.

That being said, on my UP Big Boy, when they changed my RCMC board, I had to add a capacitor across the motor to eliminate noise issues that was causing erratic running starting at speedstep 22 through about speedstep 45.  Might be worth looking into.  It was a 4.7uf 50V bi-polar capacitor.

See this thread.

I suspect that's one that I'd have to see in person.  It is telling that the chuffs do not slow down with the speed, which suggests the flywheel is not slipping. However, given that the motor is apparently running faster and the locomotive is slowing down, that suggests to me something else is slipping.

Marty might be on to something, perhaps a 1uf 50V non-polarized cap across the motor would be an interesting thing to try, and it's a cheap and easy test.

MartyE,  You are right. I am a glutton for punishment.  I simply cannot believe that a company can produce so many engines with issues and stay in business.

I had always wanted to own a train store in retirement, and I purchased many ($200K) Lionel and Atlas O 3-rail engines as due diligence and the desire to see and run those engines which my local train store would not bring into his store. 

I talked with many of Lionel's top 20 dealers who advised me NOT to open a store.  (I realistically didn't have enough money.)  The idea of paying $15,000 monthly overhead for rent utilities. staff, advertising, etc. before the first sale brings in income was too high a mountain to climb.

I would not have the stomach to look customers in the eye when their new $1500 steam engine did not work.  Handing back their money would also be a miserable sales experience. This must be why many dealers only have test tracks, run a new engine back and forth, and never really are putting it to the test of extended operation.  Most of my articulated engines had pinched wire shorts and needed service. 

My new 1931260 Union Pacific Challenger #3985 is currently at Lionel Service because the Steam Generator Smoke stopped working and the engine shell is extremely HOT to the touch.  (as HOT as a clothes iron)  They are also adding the articulated sounds and Out-of-sync Drivers.  My Western Allegheny is also at Lionel at this time for a burned out CAB Light.  I am hoping they do a good job on these engines because I plan to share my experience on OGR Forum. 

I still don't know why my Lionel AC-12 Southern Pacific Cab Forward was returned to me missing the black painted Pilot (cow catcher) and scale coupler.  I bought a replacement that arrived bent, so I bought the very last AC-12 Pilot Assembly Lionel had.  It was better, but needs to be painted.  I hope I can match the shade of black.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

 I am a glutton for punishment.

Yep, you nailed it.

If the traction tires are checked it looks like the main controls board was damaged with the short do you know if the replaced it if not that's your problem 

MartyE posted:

......

That being said, on my UP Big Boy, when they changed my RCMC board, I had to add a capacitor across the motor to eliminate noise issues that was causing erratic running starting at speedstep 22 through about speedstep 45.  Might be worth looking into.  It was a 4.7uf 50V bi-polar capacitor.

See this thread.

Ran into the same problem when Mike R. had to replace my RCMC in my Big Boy; I added the capacitor and that resolved the speed issue; Sinclair ran into the same thing when he replaced his RCMC in his Big Boy; my E6 came from the factory with the capacitor installed.

John Rowlen posted:

This must be why many dealers only have test tracks, run a new engine back and forth, and never really are putting it to the test of extended operation.  Most of my articulated engines had pinched wire shorts and needed service.

It's not very realistic for a dealer to provide extended testing for every locomotive, the margins on selling them simply don't allow that kind of testing.  Besides, at these price points, you do have expectations that the product will function as intended.

Surefire posted:

John Rowlen posted:

It came back with a note that said "This is the best I could do." 

That is unacceptable and insulting. Lionel owes you a locomotive. 

I'd send it back with a note to shove it where the sun don't shine. They would have forever lost my business right then and there. 

After editing out the crude comments (always counter-productive, anyway), this is indeed what you should do. Not that every problem deserves "a new loco", but considering the comments in the results and the note, I'd say Lionel might want to consider a refund/swap of some sort.

I agree with everyone else on trying a cap again my VL Big Boy somehow fried the RCMC (only one that I’ve ever seen fry) they replaced it under warranty and had this issue. I wasn’t smart enough to dig deep enough as the cap is something I would’ve done but it went BACK to Lionel and has worked great ever since 

I was hoping Lionel would step up and take this engine back in for service.  I am not after a new engine. Just mine if it will run properly.  I had to send the Allegheny #1608 back to Lionel when it arrived damaged from Legacy Station.  I then canceled my #1601.

I am not sure a replacement engine from Lionel is a good thing.  Dean at Lionel Service sent me a new C&O Mallet #1522 for my Vision Line GG1 #4913 that Lionel could not repair after three attempts. The C&O Mallet #1522 arrived with a front detail part broken from the engine and white paint smeared on the walkway.  The whistle sound did not work in AUX 1 Sequence Control. The whistle just blew smoke, no sound.

The technician who worked on the  Allegheny #1604 is no longer working at Lionel. I have given Lionel a little business over the past five years.  I was hoping I mattered as a customer to Lionel.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I hate to say it, but it looks like Lionel is giving you the business!

John Rowlen posted:

MartyE,  You are right. I am a glutton for punishment.  I simply cannot believe that a company can produce so many engines with issues and stay in business.

 

This is due to people continue to buy these Chinese made engines with issues right from the beginning  and Lionel knows that, they know you are going to want that engine come **** or high water. These manufactures are under pressure to slap 'em together and get 'em out as quick as possible. So, in hence you get one almost right. Every year the bar raises higher and higher with more features than ever before, just more things to go wrong. I'm beginning to think these trains are getting too technically advanced these days, subtracts from the enjoyment of the hobby.

I voted with my wallet, I stopped buying that stuff years ago. I'm back to enjoying the hobby.

Gunrunner John, 

I ran the Allegheny in TMCC and 100 Step. Nothing changed.  I put new traction tires on the rear drivers and nothing changed.  I will be boxing the engine tomorrow.  It is always fun fastening the engine into the box with the screws and pedestals.

Looks like USPS gets one more chance to damage the engine. I will look up your contact information.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Hmmm....Lionels new slogan: "This is the best we could do".

John, did you try the cap across the motor?  I'm a little surprised that Lionel actually said "This is the best we could do".  Even if that were true, it's not something that most customers want to hear, I'd expect them to be a bit more diplomatic.  The odd thing is, a bunch of people have these, and this is the first time I've heard about them having the odd speed control issue.

With all the problems Lionel is having and I have read about I wonder how many engines I have new in the box that won't run right if at all. I have one preorder and it most likely will be my last. As others have said time to switch train companies. I have even thought about switching to HO. 

 A great longtime friend whom operated a Lionel certified service facility quit business back in the spring.

He said Lionel had been difficult to deal with during their move. He mentioned parts were not being sent out on time or not at all making it very frustrating to service Lionel items.

If this was sent by Lionel to a certified facility ,maybe part availability was an issue with your loco not being serviced correctly ? 

Hopefully Lionel will get things running more smoothly in time. 

Gunrunner John,

I took time two nights ago to attempt to open the engine.  The one screw at the fireman rear is torn up but out and the other came out.  The screw damage is thanks to the Lionel Service Technician.

It appears that several detail pipes are in need of bending out of the way after unscrewing them from the floor.  The engine chassis does not unscrew and lift out like my ATSF Northern. 

My front drive unit would not lift out.  The big downward force spring for the front drivers is hooked into the front floor and will not come loose. I saw no way to remove the rear drivers with the motor.  It is not a simple operation, at least for me.

I have never installed a cap on a motor.

1. I don't have the cap

2. Where do I soldier it?

3. How do I get the motor chassis out of the engine shell?

Again, I have not worked on steam engines before, especially large articulated engines.  The ATSF Northern was a leap of faith.  I am fatigued from trying to repair this Allegheny engine.

William Shakespeare said, "Fatigue can make cowards of us all."  I am tired and not willing enough to damage  this beautiful engine. 

Mom suggests I call 1-800-GOT JUNK.  Mom wants me to drive the engine to Lionel.  I had to explain that they are in North Carolina and we are in northern Ohio.  Being a caregiver for my 92 year old mom takes a lot of time.  Model Railroading allowed me to be close to watch her and have a mental escape from the constant care demands.  Now I need a mental escape from Lionel Trains.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

MACK B4,

This Lionel 6-92768 Allegheny #1604 went directly to the horse's mouth, or some part of the horse, in New Concord, North Carolina. 

Parts have been difficult for me to get too.  It took a year to get the 21" passenger kinematic coupler plates from Lionel.  Nicholas Smith Trains finally got them for me from damaged units going back to Lionel for credit.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Well, it sucks to be in that situation.  I am confused as to the difficulty, the top of the boiler shell should come off without taking anything else off, typically it's four screws.  There will doubtless be several connectors that have to be disconnected, but you shouldn't have to take any of the running gear off.

This is obviously pretty hard to diagnose in ASCII.

Then break out the EBCDIC.

Seriously, I am having major doubts about the J3a I have on pre-order.  I really don't want to have to send it to Lionel for any warranty work.

Gunrunner John,  I will look again.  I found what looks like two screws at the mid-rear of the engine, and a screw in the left rear steam chest (The right had no screw).  There are detail pipes to move out of the way that are attached to the engine shell.

I will look at the front of the engine, but that is floating above the front drivers and should not be fastened. Perhaps the technician stuck the downward pressure front drivers spring into the shell by mistake, and that is keeping the shell from lifting. It is obvious by now the technician did not know this engine well enough to service it. … Not that I understand it at all.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

GREGM,

Don't let my thread about the Allegheny worry you.  Lionel can't possibly have more issues.

I have contacted Lionel about the Drive Shaft/Dog Bone on the 6-11333 ATSF Northern being just long enough to work, then break as it wears the T-pins at the U-Joint.  Hopefully Lionel will open all of the incoming engines and inspect them all.  They may need to get more Gold Stickers.

Oh, I forgot, you don't want Lionel to open your engine.  We will have to wait and see.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I use to be the world's Biggest Optimist, and then I started collecting Lionel Legacy Trains. 

Now I hold my breath every time a engine arrives: brand new, newly serviced, serviced for the second time, or serviced for the third time.

Going to bring the Allegheny back up to see if I can get to the motor.  Nothing to lose, except my sense of humor.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

If I had any one additional continued hi-tech "problem child" of an engine I'd sell the item on Ebay and get whatever I could for it.  Allow the buyer inherit my headaches. From then, I'd go back and purchase a train without those pesky electronics, problem solved. Life is too short to be always dealing with  defective model trains.

John Rowlen,

With all due respect - with all the problems you have had with Lionel & their products two things come to mind:  1.) see a physiatrist  about your fixation with Lionel - OR - 2.) start pursuing  MTH products (not they are perfect), but there seems to better quality control & service @ MTH.  You are suppose to be enjoying this hobby rather than pursuing what appears to be "endless frustration"!

Lenny the Lion,

Selling a dead dog on Ebay may be expedient, but it is not fair to the new owner.  I never sell junk.  It would lower my self-esteem.

My flea ridden Allegheny will continue to haunt Lionel until it runs. This my version of "Stand Your Ground".  I will be a constant reminder that Lionel needs to solve their quality Control Problems and learn to Handle Customer Service more effectively.

Lionel needs to add more qualified technicians and open their facility to PAID repair work.  The influx of paid repairs can put a larger staff available to handle the sudden demand as a "product with issues" arrives from China.  The knowledge that Lionel will be available to fix my engines in the future after the one year warranty is critical in order to justify the purchase.  Why spend $2,000.00 for one year?  Why spend any amount of money if there are no extra parts for a repair?

Lionel has lost too many service centers for a variety of reasons: irate customers barging into a train store and scarring away a buyer about to make a purchase is one of them. Many times the person who needs the repair did not buy the engine from the service center store.  I discussed these issues with Dean and Mike five plus years ago.  I predicted quality issues would worsen.  … And as the song goes, "You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet."

I hope I am wrong. I feel like Paul Revere and someone below is yelling, "Turn the **** light out".  The Boy Scouts have a pretty good motto: "Be Prepared".  I am sure they have some thoughts on service too.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

Lionel has lost too many service centers for a variety of reasons: irate customers barging into a train store and scarring away a buyer about to make a purchase is one of them. Many times the person who needs the repair did not buy the engine from the service center store.  I discussed these issues with Dean and Mike five plus years ago.  I predicted quality issues would worsen.  … And as the song goes, "You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet."

The primary reason that Lionel is losing service centers is they no longer run classes to certify new repair techs.  It's been many years since they had training, the attrition in the repair tech ranks has reduced the number of repair shops.  In addition, the new products are a different breed of cat, and it requires a different breed of repair tech, adding to the complication.

John Rowlen posted:

Lenny the Lion,

Selling a dead dog on Ebay may be expedient, but it is not fair to the new owner.  I never sell junk.  It would lower my self-esteem.

 

Actually I presumed all faults were documented in the Ebay description. I have bought basket cases on Ebay with disclosed issues and done quite well with them saving money for a used engine.

cjack posted:

John Rowlen posted:

Lenny the Lion,

Selling a dead dog on Ebay may be expedient, but it is not fair to the new owner.  I never sell junk.  It would lower my self-esteem.

 

Actually I presumed all faults were documented in the Ebay description. I have bought basket cases on Ebay with disclosed issues and done quite well with them saving money for a used engine.

Absolutely. Any defective trains I've sold always came with an accurate description of any thing wrong with the item. I would expect no less with anyone else. It surprising that some hobbyists will gladly accept something less than perfect, they make the best buyers. Some individuals might be happy that it just makes a complete circle around the track or just want to display it on their mantle.

One persons junk might be a treasure to someone else. Who knows? All that I know is that I'm done with it and on to something else. 

One of the difficulties in selling engines with flaws on Ebay is the Ebay Buyer Protection Plan that protects Buyers from engines that are NOT AS LISTED.  Any buyer complaint creates an automatic return issue. This is a good protection for the buyer, but it can create headaches for sellers of used equipment.

I might have an ugly engine, supply photos, write exactly how ugly it is, and still the dissatisfied buyer can claim,  "I thought it would look better."  A buyer return would be created automatically, lowering my seller rating and discount fee rate.  

The wording "Seller does NOT take returns" is meaningless.  If a complaint is made, a return is started.

With any business transaction there is risk: shipping damage, lost packages, buyer's remorse, etc.  But Ebay has been a good site for me to sell lightly used cars and engines that worked perfectly. 

I plan on offering a 30-day warranty on all sales.  Cars arrive either working or damaged,  Engines create a gray area as board issues and smoke units could fail. This said, Ebay is still a good site for thinning my collection.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Gunrunner John, 

If finding qualified technicians is becoming a problem, shouldn't manufacturers be offering classes to create more skilled technicians.  A great opportunity would be at YORK, where many potential class members could be found.  A Basic Tech Training class would allow O-gauge railroaders to discover their skill level and decide if further training is worth the investment of their time.  

Further classes could be conducted for those with the desire to improve their skills.  It all comes back to the Boy Scout motto, "Be Prepared".  Are the manufacturers preparing skilled technicians for the future?  … Or has Model Railroading entered its final days.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

If finding qualified technicians is becoming a problem, shouldn't manufacturers be offering classes to create more skilled technicians.

DUH!!!  No kidding!  FWIW, MTH offers regular classes.

John Rowlen posted:

Further classes could be conducted for those with the desire to improve their skills.  It all comes back to the Boy Scout motto, "Be Prepared".  Are the manufacturers preparing skilled technicians for the future?  … Or has Model Railroading entered its final days.

I can only presume that Lionel isn't that worried about maintenance after the fact.  It seems the prevailing attitude is you can always buy another one.  That attitude has permeated our entire society, we have truly become a throw-away society. 

Throw that Allegheny away, there's more at the store!

"Throw that Allegheny away, there are more at the store."

I know where more are, and the prices keep dropping, and dropping,  but still, who is going to service them?

Who you gonna call?

If we keep throwing away our broken possessions and buying new, we will spend all our money, and be living in the dumpster with our broken trains.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

If we keep throwing away our broken possessions and buying new, we will spend all our money, and be living in the dumpster with our broken trains.

Your Honor, I rest my case!