Lionel/American Flyer ALCO Locomotive

I never had an issue with gear noise with either the original (although they could be a pain to adjust ), and the Lionel Flyer wasn't the greatest quality

My Lionel/Flyer Missouri Pacific PA's are the noisiest that I own, it sounds like a coffee grinder.  It can be heard over the RailSounds B-unit.  My Wabash, Union Pacific, C&O and Silver Flash PA's are quieter, but nothing like my American Models New Haven PA's.

Oddly, my Lionel/Flyer 80's era EP-5's are pretty quiet.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

My Lionel/Flyer Missouri Pacific PA's are the noisiest that I own, it sounds like a coffee grinder.  It can be heard over the RailSounds B-unit.  My Wabash, Union Pacific, C&O and Silver Flash PA's are quieter, but nothing like my American Models New Haven PA's.

Oddly, my Lionel/Flyer 80's era EP-5's are pretty quiet.

Rusty

American Models was a big shot in the arm for S Scale.  Better engines and cars, and light years ahead of Miller and Dayton

I agree with Rusty's assessment of his MP units. They are noisy because they use plastic spur gear drive systems. I solved that issue a few years back when Charles Ro had a blow-out price on Legacy chassis New Haven units. I re-purposed the two A unit chassis and mounted my MP shells on them. I now have a set that pulls like crazy, is quieter along with LED headlight and smoke units the original units did not have.

JWKAFL

I have a number of the Flyonel PA sets, and I did not remember them as being noisy as mentioned here. I put the Flyonel MP powered unit and Flyonel SF powered unit on the layout to check them and yes they are noisy. I have run these and the others I have, the NP, The UP, and Silver Flash sets with their sets of cars and though noisy, it is somewhat hidden by the Railsounds B- units I have,  these have all been run for hours at a time and they do run well while being a bit noisy. I guess in this case I am blessed to have some loss of hearing.

Ray

Thanks for all the comments.  I've decided not to buy the PA set based on your comments.  I like the idea of getting PA shells in the road name I want and modifying them to fit the Legacy version.

John.

Your original post lists the years 81-83. During that time period open frame AC motors were used. They do not have the extra set of reduction gears that cause the noise in the later can motor versions. The open frame motors are slightly different then the original Flyer motors but are just as quiet.

Roger, Thanks for that additional information.

John.

I have a couple of questions about early Lionel AF Alcos.
I know the SP Alco was done in 1981 and had a variation of the gilbert motor.

Questions:
1. Was the B&O Alco set also done in 1981 or was it 1982 or 1983? (the literature has multiple dates)
2. Was the Eric Alco’s done in 1982 or 1983?
3. Did the B&O Alco’s all have can motors? (I assume yes, since can motors were implemented in 1982, but was one built in 1981?)

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Rubin

From what I recall, the first run of B&O's had the double wound open Gilbert style motors. The 2nd year run had the new can motor setup.

Rich

@Jerry Rubin posted:

I have a couple of questions about early Lionel AF Alcos.
I know the SP Alco was done in 1981 and had a variation of the gilbert motor.

Questions:
1. Was the B&O Alco set also done in 1981 or was it 1982 or 1983? (the literature has multiple dates)
2. Was the Eric Alco’s done in 1982 or 1983?
3. Did the B&O Alco’s all have can motors? (I assume yes, since can motors were implemented in 1982, but was one built in 1981?)

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Rubin

See my e-mail reply to you.

Best.

Bob

@Jerry Rubin posted:

I have a couple of questions about early Lionel AF Alcos.
I know the SP Alco was done in 1981 and had a variation of the gilbert motor.

Questions:
1. Was the B&O Alco set also done in 1981 or was it 1982 or 1983? (the literature has multiple dates)
2. Was the Eric Alco’s done in 1982 or 1983?
3. Did the B&O Alco’s all have can motors? (I assume yes, since can motors were implemented in 1982, but was one built in 1981?)

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Rubin

Both the B&O freight and SP passenger Alco PA sets were offered in 1981, and were manufactured with a version of the open-frame AC Gilbert style power truck and an electronic reverse unit.  The Erie passenger PA set was introduced in 1982, and the drive system was redesigned to use DC can motors with an electronic reverse unit that allowed the DC motors to operate on AC track power.  In 1983, the B&O freight set was again offered, along with a Boston and Maine GP7 freight set, both powered by DC can motor power trucks.

So, there are versions of the B&O Alco PAs with both the open-frame Gilbert style motors and the later DC can motor power trucks.

The first Erie powered PAs had Lionel open frame motors and poor electronics.  An upgrade kit was issued.  Still not up to modern electronics standards, but better and it was early.  Some L/AF open frame motors had dual wound armatures and/or fields - I forget which ones exactly, but I think the B&O was that way.  They're a bit unique and require electronics that match them.  L/AF electronic reverse units got better as time went on, but even some of the early can motor diesel reverse units have a relatively high failure rate.  Replace it with Dallee 400 when you encounter a failure.  L/AF can motor units in general have a whine sound to them unlike postwar AF.  One 1992 powered A-unit, however, and for whatever reason, will pull the wallpaper off your house -- the NP powered PA unit.  I think it was the 6-48114.  I don't think it was built differently than other L/AF powered PA's of that time period, but mine and others I've encountered were all very strong and fast.  Mine pulled my eleven unit NP L/AF (with the extra cars, the longest "AF" passenger set ever produced ) passenger train with ease.  It was a beast and a pleasure to run.  (The NP B-unit with sounds for that set had lousy sounds.  A later released PRR B-unit with sounds was much better.  Buy one of those and swap chassis.)  

@Sgaugian posted:

The first Erie powered PAs had Lionel open frame motors and poor electronics.  An upgrade kit was issued.  <snip>

Just so folks know, all of the Erie PA's had the new can motor arrangement (See, for example, page 166 of Greenberg's Guide to American Flyer S Gauge, Vol. III Sets, by Joe Deger). And, yes, the power supply board which rectified the AC to DC to run the can motors was very poor. The immediate and imperfect fix was essentially fitting two ballast resistors to the circuitry which was of some operational help but generated a fair amount of heat. The problem persisted into the UP passenger sets and made very apparent once added the PB unit and the add-on passenger cars. The PA freight sets of the period did not suffer to the same extent as-issued sets because 5 freight cars are not tough to pull and a customer might not notice.

Hope this adds some further clarification.

Bob