Lionel and 2 rail

Tunnel Vision? 

I've often wondered this myself. In a way I am glad that they don't because if they did offer 2 rail steamers with Railsounds/DCC that would really put a dent in my wallet.

 

When I convert an Atlas or MTH car to 2 rail, 99% of the time I prefer to use Atlas and MTH trucks respectively. What makes no sense to me is why Lionel doesn't at least sell 2 rail trucks separately for bolt on application to their cars? That's how MTH does it and I don't think it hurts either MTH or Atlas to offer separate sale 2 rail trucks.

 

It could be that Lionel just doesn't want to market to anyone who might be considered a model railroader but only to collectors. Collectors buy more and will buy whatever hits their fancy while a model railroader is more likely to stick with the one or two roads that they are trying to model. [No disrespect intended to either group] I feel this may be part of the reason. Another part of the reason could be is I have heard stories about how back in the day 2 railers were notorious for asking a manufacturer to make an item and then if it wasn't exactly the way they wanted it they wouldn't buy it and of course the manufacturer is stuck with something that no one wants. Perhaps a third possible answer is that some 2 railers (NOT ME) here the word Lionel and immediately think semi-scale toy trains. These guys wouldn't even give Lionel a second thought. I on the other hand love the scale stuff that Lionel has done. I have some of their boxcars and I really like them. I would have more of them if they were easier to convert to 2 rail.

And there you have it.  Don't believe it, ask anyone at Lionel.  It's no secret.

 

And I have several of their items that are the best scale stuff I've seen.  Even just 2-railing their roller bearing trucks and leaving off the lobster claw couplers would be nice.

They dug their niche and only want to lie down in it to be left alone.....

I was going to sell off my Lionel Standard O freight cars.  Then for the heck of it, I tried the new redesigned (narrower) Atlas 2-rail trucks on a Lionel steel reefer.  I was very surprised to see that it sat better (lower) than did the Atlas steel reefer on Atlas trucks.  As a result, I'm now annoyed with how high the Atlas reefer sits.

 

As I acquire more 2 rail Atlas trucks, I plan to try them out on other type Lionel cars.  For the most part the "Blt by" can be dealt with easily enough and it's a lot cheaper than buying and selling to replace the freight cars.  I've always thought the Lionel Standard O freight cars (reefer, box, hopper, flat, tank) were decent, with Kadee pads and removal of the "Blt by", they would be much better.

I personally think its no big deal that Lionel does not make 2 rail cars, as it is really easy to convert them with a minimal amount of work,    I generally use Intermountain trucks with IM wheelsets, but I have also used the Lionel Trucks with NWSL wheel sets, and even MTH 2 rail trucks.  The latter bolt right in.  Yes you have to drill for the Kadee coupler pads, but their newer tooling even includes provisions for that!  As a bonus I can usually sell the Lionel truck and coupler and almost break even on the deal.  I would guess that if Lionel actually made these available in 2 rail, they would charge more, because of the extra inventory, supply and tracking costs.  

 

Here are some Lionel cars I have converted

 

X-31 (I had to paint these, as Lionel delivered them in a criminally unprototypical chocolate brown)

 

Reefer

PS-1 Box car

 

40' Flat Car

 

PS-4 Flat car

 

PS-4 Piggy Back Flat car

 

I personally just love some of the Lionel scale rolling stock. John said it best- EASY AND THEY LOOK MARVELOUS!

2 rail would be nice!!

I should consider doing 3D printed drop in bolster/coupler mounts for these cars so we can mount our Yoder brass trucks. Truly the Lionel trucks look spectacular just the way they are.

Let me how many of what style bolster you want.....  I have 1-2 other styles as well.  Probably have 20-40 pair of the middle style ready to go now.

 

I also have Atlas-style bolsters in the design phase for Marker; these will be drop in for mounting Atlas trucks.

 

I never thought of including the coupler shim in the design.

 

Thanks,

Mario

I actually prefer some of the Lionel diesels as candidates for 2 rail conversion. The Alco S2 switcher, the scale F3s, the scale FM Trainmasters, the H16-44, the GP30s, and Sharks are all nice models to convert or have converted. And the truck wheelbases look to be the right size too. I've been looking at the FA-2s as well. 

Those are fantastic Martin.

I will drop you a line.


       

John and Eric,

 

Love those flat cars and their respective loads.

 

Ron H

You know where & how to find me.  You do get the joy of drilling & tapping these yourself, but it only takes a few seconds to do.  Installation is my usual mix of Goo and CA.

1 - among non-3-railers (of any scale) the bigotry against the name "Lionel" is monumental. As I recall, when Lionel brought out their beautiful PRR T-1 4-4-4-4

there was a 2-rail version offered. Can you imagine how many were sold? I mentioned

the loco to a PRR-modeler in 2-rail O back then, and he looked at me as if I were speaking Mandarin. They cannot learn.

 

2 - when Lionel brought out their modern HO line some years back - state-of-the-art at the time; I saw them; Challenger and a Veranda Turbine - few would buy them. The curse of "Lionel" on the box. I actually saw, on one of the OGR Forums at the time, an apparently serious question that went like: "What kind of track would Lionel HO run on?". He seemed

to think that it had to have a middle rail because of the name. (Reminded me of trying

to explain the VW Rabbit in the 1970's - "VW" was a brand, not an engine location!)

 

3 - the problem is not Lionel, it's the 2-railers. 

The question may be "why hasn't LIONEL moved into the 2RS market, YET?"

 

I've been away from the hobby for 10+ years and I'm shocked at the movement toward O scale size and detail in LIONEL's products.  With the modern auto rack and other large, scale-size equipment LIONEL is offering, why not add scale trucks since they're offering the Kadee pockets.  That would add substantial incremental income for nominal cost.

 

 

Do one thing, and do it right.

They're doing their thing and evolving, and doing it right. Multi packs of freight cars, scale details and fantastic sounds. Like D500 said above, to me it sounds like "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Lionel is not fooling around with two rail for a reason.

Thanks,
Mario

Not their market. They are smart enough to know their niche and stick to it.

D500,

i am a 2 railer and I have several Lionel locomotives that have been converted to 2 rail.  A number of other 2 railers I know also have Lionel locomotives and rolling stock (as evidenced by some of the previous comments and photos on this forum topic) that have been converted to 2 rail. I think all of us would have preferred to not go to the trouble or expense to convert the locomotives or cars.

 

I am not sure why you say we 2 railers are the problem.

 

If Lionel made 2 rail product I believe many of us would purchase it if it fit our modeling preferences.

why all the hatred to 2 railers???

D500 we cannot learn really. my first trainset was bought for me 7 months before i was born a LIONEL 675. when i bought a 773 in 1966 and saw that it was bigger than a Pennsy turbine it made me question the size. in 1976 i bought a us hobbies prr k4 and liked the appearance of the size and better detail o yeah no 3rd rail massive couplers and over sized flanges. i learned! then i went back to 3rail when i saw mth & lionel scale locos and cars, but returned to 2 rail because of the 3rd rail. I learned i like scale. maybe you 3 rail scale guys can't learn that there are other things out there.

centralfan1976 do one thing right they are by putting kd pads under there cars and building full scale cars. even you want scale appearance with your coupler adapters so why not man up and ditch the 3rd rail.

now before i am hung and quartered i really don't care if anyone wants 3 rail over 2 rail i just posted to show you 3 railers how it feels to have someone slap you around for what you like. i have lionel k-line cars that i converted to 2 rail. i supported sunset by buying several passenger sets and locomotives. that also helps get the quantity up so you 3 rail scale guys can get what you want. so why be so negative to 2 railers its our hobby and thats what we want.

I can't afford to ditch the third rail! Ha! I can neither afford the track nor the trains.

That's the only thing I miss about HO was no middle rail. So I either have to live with it or minimalize it. I really like what Ron H has done with an N scale middle rail, but I'm years away from that.

So I'm just gonna stay a little boy and play with my Lionel trains.

Thanks,
Mario

nobody said you were a little boy playing with your Lionel trains.  what i said why the hatred to 2 railers? and you can't afford the 2 rail mth dreyfus 2 rail and 3 rail same price diesels are 20.00 more. atlas cars 5.00 more diesels same price. and atlas track 18.75 for 40" 2 rail vs 26.50 for 40" 3 rail.and you can do a reverse loop in 2 rail for about 30.00.

 but the real bottom line i don't care if you or anyone else wants to be in three rail but why the hatred towards anyone in 2 rail. this is your hobby you do it for fun i do it for fun . i like the way 2 rail looks better than the way 3 rail looks. my opinion i'm not trying to convert you or anyone else to my way of thinking.

Well I'm 2 rail and I dont have a problem with Lionel, I have a UP GP30 and she's a beauty, I choose Lionel's Sharknose diesel because I think Lionel got it right, and the trucks have the right axle spacing. There's quite a few Lionel pieces I wouldn't mind getting. 

I like coming to the three rail scale section because you guys do a great job of modelling, what ever your leanings in rails, I say enjoy!!        Stephen      (cTr...Choose the Right)

I have to admit you're right, and I shouldn't have said what I did.

I also shouldn't have said I couldn't afford it, but that I couldn't afford it now...

I went crazy buying O gauge trains, then I found scale-sized offerings with all the details and went crazy with those.  Now I see that two rail is more available than I thought, and I'm spent.

Couple that with the "loss" of stock Lionel offerings and I'm going to stay with 3 rail scale.

I enjoy fixing pilots and adding Kadees to engines and cars. Just like horsepower, as you get closer to prototype modeling, the reward for cash trade off becomes thin. And fixed pilots and Kadees, with weathering give me the most horsepower for my dollars. As I had mentioned, using an N scale center rail is genius, and really could shrink that blatantly obvious elephant in the corner to a mouse.

Thanks,
Mario

PD- I really am a little boy trapped in a middle aged man's body.

This is a very intriguing thread, and something I guess I had never thought about.  It's interesting that several have mentioned that Lionel, probably the biggest supplier of O-gauge, has found their niche.  My first reaction was that Lionel O-gauge and 2-rail just don't get thought of together.  But I'd be in favor of anything that Lionel could make money on.  It's all good.

How big or should I say small is the O scale 2 rail market in terms of #'s. Besides S scale , O 2 rail most have a small market share. Didn't Kalmbach or or another company used to post what percents of people particpate in what scales? Sorry I digress and I do not see Lionel going O 2 rail, maybe I'm wrong.  That said Lionel has 2 rail S gauge.

I think they are almost there for rolling stock.  There is a thread that shows how little effort it takes to convert the 86' boxcars to 2-rail by installing kadees (very little effort involved) and swapping out the wheelsets, using the same trucks.

 

The locos are another story, with fixed pilots, full length handrails, and needing to offer different wheelsets and roller pickups.  The locos are too complicated and the 2-rail market is too small for Lionel to bother, especially since MTH is already established there.

I like a lot of Lionel stuff too. I just got this PS-1 boxcar off the bay. I bought it for several reasons 

 

#1)I realily like the road name/paint scheme 

 

#2)Someone else did the work of 2 railing it so that saved me from another project. Also, I wanted to see how he or she did the conversion.

 

#3)Price was fair at $42 which includes shipping.

Martin H the reason the 2 rail market is small is because the misconception that you have to be a machinist and own an airplane hanger or better yet McCormick Place in Chicago to have a switching layout in 2 rail. Plus many 2 railers are their hobbies worst enemies by being rivet counters and blowhard elitist. what i mean by that is one of the best modelers i know is Denny Manwarren whose layout was featured in Model RRer in 1984 he said when its on the layout not up against your nose it needs to look good.  That was an early version of Tony Koester in MR good enough modeling.

the next issue i addressed in an earlier post is cost everyone thinks 2 railers are investment bankers using their clients monies to buy a locomotive or brass cars. the post above 42.00 for a 2 rail car about the same money as a 3 rail car. atlas charges about the same money for a 2 or 3 rail locomotive. if you watch at 2 rail shows, the bay and other venues brass locos are avail at same or lower prices than 3 rail. my son bought a max gray big boy with a custom drive for under 900.00 it needs repainting and he's going to install DCC in it so all said and done he will have less than 1200.00 in it. less than Lionel's masterpiece but not all the "features". if they can figure out how to make  a depleting coal load they should be able to figure how to insulate the drivers and since MTH,WEAVER,3rd RAIL and ATLAS can figure out how to do it i'm sure their builders can do the same.

2 railers need to promote  the 2 rail aspect of their hobby and not hide out in the basement. look at the 2 rail proto 48 display that Jim Cantor's group displayed at Indy and the Cleveland shows if more 2 rail display layouts were out their more people would see that 2 rail is attainable and as affordable as 3 rail(leaving the Kohs and Pacific Limiteds out of the equation). 

finally Sam the promoter of the Cleveland 2 rail show told me attendance was up again this year. 2 rail is not dying it needs to be promoted look at some of the display layout that were posted by Lars and others in Europe those aren't any higher dollar layouts than some of the 3 rail modular layouts.

Perhaps I am confused. Why can't the Lionel freight cars be manufactured to be either 2 or 3?  I certainly know much less than most folks on here but is there any reason that a freight car made for 2 rail also run on 3 rail?  I realize with Passenger cars the internal lighting comes into play.  

 

Honestly i wonder at times why not introduce battery powered locomotives that used remote control and would then run on either 2 or 3 rail as well.  I like to think about this if nothing more than not ever having to clean the track again!  

Yes, I have messed with 2-rail scale for a lot of years, but small prototypes only, with O scale British models on micro-layouts. My relatively recent interest 3-rail is probably because of the improved offerings over the last couple of decades, not to mention a thing for tin litho and some available space. That space however, doesn't have room for curve radii needed for scale operation; I still need those swinging pilots and couplers. 

 

 I scanned the 3-rail scene a bit back when, but didn't like the MPC-like trains and didn't see any appeal in over-priced toys with movie or soft-drink banners plastered all over them. That said, I think Lionel has done a great job in their niche, and any attempt to market 2-rail would be a lost cause because of the name recognition. If they decided to make 2-rail inroads, perhaps it would have to be through a different company. Worldwide, to many, Lionel is the ultimate American toy train brand. The second brand might be able to operate without the famous parent's toy connotations, but would it splinter Lionel's market too much?

 

 

doing 2 rail hasn't seemed to negatively affect MTH .Lionel is making 2 rail adaptable cars with KD mounting on them and i know many 2 railers who purchase them and convert them to 2 rail and no one seems upset that its made by Lionel other than the built by Lionel. i don't think it would be a negative for them as it expands their market as they are still doing 3 rail and adding what goes to the 2 railers not eliminating 3 rail. 

look at the thread on early piggybacks i'm sure Erik doesn't care that these were once 3rail Lionel cars I know I don't!