Lionel & Sanda Kan?

Because Sanda Kan allowed them to. Lionel simply decided on its own to go elsewhere.

Except for MTH they all need a 3rd party train manufacture to stay in business. Price, quality, and production schedule are probably considered to determine which manufacture in China is contracted.

At least Sanda does trains, a lot of the other builders, it is trains this week, cordless drills the next, plasma TVs the following...

... all those you have mentioned are businesses. Just follow the money!
____________________________________________________________________________________
Ask Adam Smith: "It's good to own the means of production."

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Originally posted by DPC:

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Originally posted by Allan Miller:
Because Sanda Kan allowed them to. Lionel simply decided on its own to go elsewhere.

I like the use of that word "Allowed"

It's not that much different here. Most small and mid-size businesses don't own the property they operate out of, they typically lease it. And when you lease buildings or mfg plants from property management consortiums, they are in effect "allowing" you to establish your operations there. That arrangement is as common as houseflies.

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Originally posted by DPC: I like the use of that word "Allowed" That's why the quality coming out of China is nothing less than crap .Because the Chinese think they have you by the family jewels.I guess that's aslo why I've heard horror stories from company's that try to recover their tooling from Sanda Kan once they decide not to do business from them anymore ... David

I find it endlessly amusing how the myths of the hobby business continue. Lets see a raise of hands: How many know who really owned Sanda Kan before the company was bought by Kader? That's right: it was an investment banking (hedge fund) subsidiary of none other than ... J.P.Morgan. Same model as Lionel's relationship to Guggenheim Partners. Morgan dumped Sanda Kan during the Stock Market panic of 2009. Kader bought Kan (50% of world wide toy train production) for little more than $6 million (as reported by OGR Mag). And what was Lionel & MTH busy doing at that time? Does anybody believe that Kader bought Kan to make that Vision Guy's dreams come true? at cheap Morgan factory owned prices?

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... Once again it's nice to know who's really running this country David

Yup ... It's the same crew that was running the country during the late 1960's (Vietnam Era), or the cabal that organized OPEC during the early 1970's ...

But enough of the history of monopoly capitalism. This is after all a toy train forum.

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Because Sanda Kan allowed them to. Lionel simply decided on its own to go elsewhere.

Considering what happened to Lionel Q/C since the separation, not hard to figure out who ended up on the short side of the stick?
Joe

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Originally posted by JC642:

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Because Sanda Kan allowed them to. Lionel simply decided on its own to go elsewhere.

Considering what happened to Lionel Q/C since the separation, not hard to figure out who ended up on the short side of the stick?
Joe

I think you'll find that Lionel had their problems before the separation from S/K and even from the Mount Clemens days. It's just now, there's more "stuff" crammed into Lionel's products now.

S/K has their problems too, ask On30'ers about broken gears on Bachmann's Shays, Climaxes and railtrucks.

Rusty

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Originally posted by Rusty Traque:

I think you'll find that Lionel had their problems before the separation from S/K and even from the Mount Clemens days. It's just now, there's more "stuff" crammed into Lionel's products now.

Rusty

Yup, I certainly remember a lot of problems with Lionel quality control during the 80's and early 90's, despite the trains being much simpler.

Lionel should have bought Sanda Kan when it was for sale.  They would have total control.  And could be a vendor to others and all could work together for items like common technologies.  The same chips in a Lionel would not compete against the same in an AristoCraft G train.

Lionel should have bought Sanda Kan when it was for sale.

 

Since Kader Industries is many, many times larger than Lionel and is already a Hong Kong company I doubt that Lionel could have matched their offer.

35%, I don't think I've ever read of that high a number of bad Williams out of the box before. The ones I have bought over the years have all been good.

Me either Jim, and I've got plenty. Seems some people attract the bad ones. Out of hundreds I've bought, one bad MTH (PS2), one Lionel Railsounds board exploded.

Not bad. As stated elsewhere, my only real problem is shipping damage.

I do not claim to know the toy business, but I do know what is good business and bad business:

 

1) As a Manufacturer you should own your dies and not lease them to build your product.

2) Offer service parts for all items up to 7 years old or more.

3) Have continuous improvement checks and balances

4) Make sure Customer feedback items are addressed in current and future products

5) Standardize your product line up to improved cost and better understand your product.

 

 

I applaud the recent release of informational videos for the public. Now that Manufacture show rooms and hobby shops are disappearing, this is long over due.

 

Same for me, and I have owned a good many Williams products over a good many years, as well as Bachmann and WBB products (including On30 and Large Scale).  VERY few problems with any of these products, and none/zero/nada that required a return to be serviced.

 

But I also can say the same for the other manufacturers' products that I have bought over the years.  I have a great many MTH and Lionel locomotives and a lesser number of Weaver, Atlas, and RMT, and have had very few problems with any of them--probably less than can be counted on one hand.  Some people, I'm afraid, just seem to attract problems for one reason or another.

"I don't think I've ever read of that high a number of bad Williams out of the box before." - Jim 1939

 

" VERY few problems with any of these products, and none/zero/nada that required a return to be serviced." - Allan Miller

 

Companies vary as much as poeple in strengthes and weaknesses and characteristics.  People beat up on Lionel for quality, but consider . . .

 

Williams has done an excellent job of maintaining good quality. But they don't have sound, DCC, or advanced features: Does anyone expect to see a swinging bell synchronized with sound on a Williams loco anytime soon?  At any price?     The most innovative thing Williams has done lately (and something I love!) is to put low speed gearing in the new 10-wheeler.  

 

By contrast, Lionel looks to me to be the hands down innovation/technology leader now.  Their sound is a bit better than anyone else's.  Their cruise works better.  They try new things like the swinging bell, steam effects and that innovative connection between loco and tender on the S3 that closes up the gap on straights, etc., whatever they call that, etc.    

 

I'm not defending Lionel's quality - I too have had some issues -- although I have fixed nearly all the issues myself -- but I am observing that their culture is different. They take risks, they bring out new products and features routinely, rather than keep cranking out the same old same old.

 

I never thought aobut it until now, but Williams/Sanda Kan looks alot like a Chinese corporate  culture.  I've dealt with many, all manufacturing process oriented - I'm not saying they are quality oriented although I have seen Chinese companies do extraordinary quality work when they want to.  But they think and eat and sleep in a batch manufacturing process/cost world. None I have seen are the least bit innovative or even design oriented: Chinese companies steal, or when necessary, buy, technology and design - that's why American companies are so careful about partnering with them.  They don't develop new ideas well and they don't know how to do innovative design at competitive costs.

 

I know there are bright, innovative young engineers growing up in China, but they don't seem to work for or contribute to the corporate mind set of companies like Sanda Kan.  Many of them come here to work and live - in fact, quite a few of the best are working for me right now . . . .  

 

Lionel may not be up there with Apple as an innovator/design culture, but they are much more "modern American" culture and oreintation, in my opinion, than Williams. 

 

I like both companies, but I buy maybe ten times as much from Lionel.