That is what I mean. There are posts on the forum all the time about the smoke units messed up so they will give you more !! The old price was $6 for a two ounce bottle. That is $3/ounce, I was making mine for about 30 cents an ounce. I think smoke is a headache, cost-wise and more to fuss with. I imagine my steamers have good fireman using good coal with a clear stack.
Rocky Mountaineer posted:That would really be amazing. If I recall correctly, pre-order pricing for the VL Big Boy ($2700 MSRP) was slightly less than that through a few forum sponsors, and that monstrosity was an articulated steamer!
Can't imagine folks would be all that eager to part with $2K for a non-articulated steamer -- no matter how many smoke units it has.
But that's why Lionel previewed the Niagara without a price -- so folks could convince themselves it'll be a "must-have" regardless of the insane price that gets announced in a few months. Ah yes... The psychology of selling is alive and well here.
If I recall during the "Big Boy Price Wars" some were selling them for under $2k. If I had to ball park this engine I would guess right at the $1800 MSRP. That is strictly a guess. I think the Big Boy pushed the limit for a MSRP for most of us but they did sell well if the forum was any indication. Of course no one paid near MSRP either, or should of had to.
I suspect this engine will do well. Lionel was smart to show it off at York. It certainly created some buzz.
TrainWorld has already added these locomotives to their preordering. $2000 exactly. I don't know if this will change when the 2018 volume 1 catalog comes out, but it seems to be exactly as I expected.
Not paying 2k. I can buy 2 mth ones for that.
Everyone to their own liking. Personally if I had 2 grand to spend on trains(I don't), I would like to pick up some nice Standard gauge(original) engines. If this is what want and can afford, more power to you. When they come out I would like to see one.
When I retired I purchased my company car for $2K.
its hard to justify spending between $1800 - $2000 for a Lionel engine, especially when I consider that i already have the CCII version of the Niagara.
Richard
jojofry posted:Not paying 2k. I can buy 2 mth ones for that.
Or 3 3rd Rail, 1 MTH, and 1/2 a Lionel. Add 200 for the other 1/2 
Pete
I haven't thought enough about it yet to decide on what price makes sense for me. But as an observation, Lionel is selling the scale PE Berkshire and from memory, I think it's MSRP is $1,600. And I think the general price point for a non-articulated Legacy steamer is right around $1,500 - $1,600. There are many threads where people have stated they either bought or are buying these Legacy locomotives and not baulking at the prices. Again, those are basic Legacy locomotives with fewer operating features and, presumably, less detail. If this Vision locomotive has an MSRP of $1,800, I'm not going to say it's worth it (or not) - but if you say it's not worth it then not sure how anyone justifies payng almost the same for basic Legacy?
Black smoke is waste, no smoke is super efficient, is that how it goes? Does any smoke fluid come in 2 liter bottles or gallon size? Maybe we should ask the milkman in the operating milk car if he knows if there is a 50 gallon drum available.
jim pastorius posted:That is what I mean. There are posts on the forum all the time about the smoke units messed up so they will give you more !! The old price was $6 for a two ounce bottle. That is $3/ounce, I was making mine for about 30 cents an ounce. I think smoke is a headache, cost-wise and more to fuss with. I imagine my steamers have good fireman using good coal with a clear stack.
Yep, smoke has it's issues. But ... we are suckers for smoke in my house. My family does the North Pole Express steam excursion every year down in Essex CT and all the children - and the parents and grandparents - are all mesmerized by the steamer just sitting there with steam pouring out from every orifice. What a beautiful sight!
It's sort of why I don't think I'm cut out to be a 2-rail guy that cares about rivets or stanchion wire thickness. In real life, the wow factor comes from watching the steam. I'd also bet that everyone's mental image of a steam engine includes plumes of steam, not rivets. I really wish (a) Lionel would create a better smoke unit, like MTH's with it's prodigious output, and (b) that they would put pop-off valve, dynamo, cylinder, blow-down, whistle and more smoke features in their offerings. Resistance for me would be futile.
Lionel posted these on their Facebook page...
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Interesting photos. Lots of stuff crammed in there. I could go with the simulated steam at the relief valve, cylinders , blow down, etc but the simulated water spray scooping water is a real stretch. Not every railroad or track had water pans and not all had overflows like that. The mfrs are desperate to come up with gimmicks to try and increase the marketing of their toys. I like good basic design and features, spare me the gimmicks. Same as with today's cars.
"Whatever THAT is supposed to mean."
In the Notch 6 interview, Ryan mentioned that they are making one in a fantasy paint scheme for those who like their steam locomotives in more colorful livery. He joked about doing one in SP Daylight paint 
. Hopefully no one will have a stroke about this. This is a toy train entertainment, not an historical model for a museum.
At only $1500-$2000 I'll take 3 please. Maybe I'll just cut back on food for my children for the next few years.
Thanks for the pics Marty. No more" kindler and gentiler"?? "Make good use of the block feature"?
I wonder how many folks will burn up the smoke unit in the tender in short order?
With that long fill tube, its gonna take 40 drops to get 20 into the unit, and alot of blowin.
Mikado 4501 posted:TrainWorld has already added these locomotives to their preordering. $2000 exactly. I don't know if this will change when the 2018 volume 1 catalog comes out, but it seems to be exactly as I expected.
Then "Ro" will come in at $1950. What do I win?! 
RickO posted:Thanks for the pics Marty. No more" kindler and gentiler"?? "Make good use of the block feature"?
The block feature keeps me "kindler and gentler".
The Niagara brings to market two new pieces of technology-steam thru the pop off valve and the tender water scoop sound and smoke unit. All the other items have been previously produced in the vision line. My opinion is that the market will not bear 1999.00 or higher despite an advertised price from Brooklyn. This engine has variations thru numbers and color and club membership. My guess is they want the Central fan to buy more than one soo I will say the suggested retail will be 1799.00 and the large Lionel dealers will sell at 1699.00. And probably Lionel wholesales the engine at 800.00 and it cost them 400.00 to build. Everyone in the chain makes money.
Don't forget the "Force Coupler". That is the true new vision feature.
MartyE posted:Don't forget the "Force Coupler". That is the true new vision feature.
We must assume that that feature should give a LOT less trouble than all those extra smoke units/features.
MartyE posted:Don't forget the "Force Coupler". That is the true new vision feature.
You are correct. Three new options
Dazzling !! Get a shell and put it on a standard 4-8-4 chassis
I just don't see the wow factor in this Vision line engine. Yes it has 5 smoke units, and the force coupler but to me it does nothing for me to say I have to have it.
I wish good luck for those buying the niagara but I don't see the value in it.
Dave
david1 posted:I just don't see the wow factor in this Vision line engine. Yes it has 5 smoke units, and the force coupler but to me it does nothing for me to say I have to have it.
I wish good luck for those buying the niagara but I don't see the value in it.
Dave
Dave, I know exactly what you're thinking, and I've struggled a bit with this locomotive as well. It IS indeed gonna have some "fun factor" to it -- simply because the steam effects are the first of their kind. HOWEVER, as I've been saying all along, I have no doubt that Lionel is gonna make folks pay a dear premium for this locomotive. It's what they do best right now. 
And when you look at an MTH Niagara coming in at nearly HALF what Trainworld has "suggested" the Lionel VL Niagara might cost, that's gotta make some folks (myself included) think long and hard about splurging on Lionel's latest VL offering. Now for die-hard Lionel fans, this is gonna be a no-brainer -- regardless of cost. Some may even buy two. And that's fine. But for those who plug away at the value equation, it might be a tough sell.
Meanwhile, Lionel has whet a lot of appetites with the York preview. And they're throwing around lots of buzz phrases like "the ultimate steam locomotive" to help solidify the internal commitment we make to ourselves to "feel good" about pre-ordering in a couple of months and then actually purchasing one of these locomotives a year from now.
Seemed impressive to me. Very curious what the 20th Century Limited paint scheme will look like.
Does anyone know the minimum required radius on this one? I'm assuming O-72 but still holding out hope that they might figure out how to run it on O-54.
The Niagara is a very nice state-of-the-art engine, highly detailed with an abundance of new features. At $2,000 per unit I just wonder what the thinking is over at Lionel. Where is the market??? Much of the train buying audience is middle aged, seniors and retired people that IMO would tend toward more affordable product. My discretionary spending is mainly for antiquities, silver, gold, real estate, classic automobiles and other valuable things.
Dr. Bunsen Honeydew posted:..................Does anyone know the minimum required radius on this one? I'm assuming O-72 but still holding out hope that they might figure out how to run it on O-54.
O72, primarily because of the centipede tender.
-Dave
I have no doubt that Lionel will sell every Niagara they make. This post is full of reasons why people do not want to buy the engine. Those who want it will buy it. I am one of those who want it. I love the newer Lionel steam locomotives with the RCMC board system. I have the original MTH Niagara (metal gears) that will be up for sale when I catch up a bit. I had a Lionel CC I got on my add wanting to buy your inoperative shelf queens. I got it running and dumped it. I am glad I did as the plastic geared locomotive is not on many wanted to buy lists. If you want it, buy it. If you are not going to buy it, that is your business. I do not think anyone cares if you buy or do not buy.
dk122trains posted:I will say the suggested retail will be 1799.00 and the large Lionel dealers will sell at 1699.00. And probably Lionel wholesales the engine at 800.00 and it cost them 400.00 to build. Everyone in the chain makes money.
I think the dealers would love to make anything like the markup you suggest, but that ain't happening! Let's assume you're selling price is correct, the dealers will not be making $900 a locomotive, but I'll bet they salivate at the prospect of that kind of markup!
I'm sure other dealers will agree, but I have customers who has placed firm orders for this Lionel Vision Line Niagara and they don't even know, nor do I believe they care WHAT the price for them are. Amazing.
It helps we are located on the REAL Water Level Route too.
#6002 in the Dewitt Servicing yard hardly a mile from our store. (CNYNRHS Inc. ARCHIVES)
#6017 in the Dewitt Servicing yard hardly a mile from our store. (CNYNRHS Inc. ARCHIVES)
JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:I'm sure other dealers will agree, but I have customers who has placed firm orders for this Lionel Vision Line Niagara and they don't even know, nor do I believe they care WHAT the price for them are. Amazing.
...
That is EXACTLY Lionel's target market... the guys (and gals) who don't CARE what the price is. But they'll want it nonetheless. Then there are those of us -- and I include myself in this category -- who want these items, but KNOWS all too well that Lionel is raking us over the coals with their pricing.
BTW, I think GRJ is spot on with his comments about margins, etc... DK's supply chain pricing is an interesting one, but what jumped out at me was, "Why would Lionel make less than the dealers?" I think that's where that supply chain example falls apart. Do you really think Big L would make $400 on a locomotive like this, and then turn around and "suggest" that dealers make $900??? If anything, I suspect it's the other way around... namely LIONEL would make the $900+ profit (to help pay Howard's annual bonus and cover Lionel's G&A overheads), and the dealer/distributor margins would likely be in the couple-hundred dollar range.
Of course, that's why Lionel catalogs such ridiculous MSRP's... because it conceals the REAL costs in the supply chain... and keeps everyone guessing as to what constitutes a truly "good deal". Occasionally, a dealer may play his hand, and we'll get a good idea of what his costs may be. But seldom do we ever see what Lionel pays China to make this stuff. And truth be told, we probably don't WANT to know, lest we all want to flirt with severe bouts of depression. 
Marty Fitzhenry posted:If you want it, buy it. If you are not going to buy it, that is your business. I do not think anyone cares if you buy or do not buy.
100% agree.
Dr. Bunsen Honeydew posted:Seemed impressive to me. Very curious what the 20th Century Limited paint scheme will look like.
Does anyone know the minimum required radius on this one? I'm assuming O-72 but still holding out hope that they might figure out how to run it on O-54.
Pretty sure that diameter requirement is all those tender axles. Do any of the UP engines equipped with a centipede tender run on O54?
JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:I'm sure other dealers will agree, but I have customers who has placed firm orders for this Lionel Vision Line Niagara and they don't even know, nor do I believe they care WHAT the price for them are. Amazing.
It helps we are located on the REAL Water Level Route too.
#6002 in the Dewitt Servicing yard hardly a mile from our store. (CNYNRHS Inc. ARCHIVES)
#6017 in the Dewitt Servicing yard hardly a mile from our store. (CNYNRHS Inc. ARCHIVES)
This is the old mainline about 4 miles from my house. Now owned by CSX.
Still on the fence about this engine. If the detail approaches 3rd Rail I am in. Not into the smoke effects but the force coupler has me interested.
Pete
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