Jon Z. uses his cab-1L and he's forgotten more about technology than 99.999% of the people in the hobby.
Forgotten it? I invented a lot of it, patented it, and many products are still being sold and used after 20 years! I just like my Cab1. The batteries last for years, it is always on with a key press, quills the horn, runs the trains. Good enough to relax and get my “fix”.
@rplst8 posted:They probably aren’t dragging their feet. What happened is they made an architectural mistake…
They essentially put two control systems and three command systems in one box. And, made them tightly coupled.
Control: wifi and cab2/cab1L RF
Command: Bluetooth, LionChief, and LegacyThe original LCS approached this in a modular way, allowing components to be “loosely coupled” (via serial or PDI) and added at the owners’ level of need. E.g wifi module etc.
If they can’t produce a new physical remote with one control interface (Legacy 2.4GHz signal) while dealing with parts obsolescence, what makes them think they’ll be able to manage and support the Base3 over the long haul?
As Clyde Coil would comment “Even Magneta would be impressed with the Base3”. I could say more, but there’s that NDA Dr. ZW signed, dang!
I confess I use the CAB1L most of the time, but I do like the CAB2 for when I want to exercise some of the fancy features like wheel-spin with the Big Boy or Challenger. 
@SantaFeFan posted:Jon Z. uses his cab-1L and he's forgotten more about technology than 99.999% of the people in the hobby.
Forgotten it? I invented a lot of it, patented it, and many products are still being sold and used after 20 years! I just like my Cab1. The batteries last for years, it is always on with a key press, quills the horn, runs the trains. Good enough to relax and get my “fix”.
ok, the dots are connected. Too bad about those pesky NDAs!
@SantaFeFan posted:As Clyde Coil would comment “Even Magneta would be impressed with the Base3”. I could say more, but there’s that NDA Dr. ZW signed, dang!
I'd love to be a fly on the wall if you and those other two former Lionel employees ever got together. lol!
@RickO posted:I'd love to be a fly on the wall if you and those other two former Lionel employees ever got together. lol!
We all still keep in touch often! Lou, Neil, John, Mark, Bruce, Tyler, and I chat on the phone and exchange emails. Neil offers to assist Lionel when we chat. What an amazing time it was back in 2006, all driven by an unbelievable passion to create a system so unique and innovative. Everyone is doing well and prospering.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:My choice for show-stopper isn't the micros but the unique flexible plastic display/touch pad used for the virtual, programmable keys. The Cab 2 is the only device I've ever seen that uses this technology. Smartphones don't, most appliances don't -- they have glass touchscreens. Where does Lionel find a replacement for this?
A glass touch screen could replace the dot matrix touch buttons just fine. What makes the Legacy Cab-2 the best option to control Lionel trains is:
in two words… tactile feedback.
@rplst8 posted:A glass touch screen could replace the dot matrix touch buttons just fine. What makes the Legacy Cab-2 the best option to control Lionel trains is:
- the detented red rotary encoder for speed control.
- the train brake slider
- the whistle/horn slider
- the brake/boost scroll wheel
in two words… tactile feedback.
Which can be accomplished with an app and a connected gamepad-style controller.
My gripe about all of the current & past controllers is the ergonomics. In the early 90s while the CAB1 was still on the drawing board who seriously thought of that design? All they had to do is look at how some of the then-current gaming systems evolved from their 70s & 80's predecessors to come up with a better design. Instead, it was the Intellivision from the '70s that won:
But even the old Intellivision controller had buttons on the side that could be used by other fingers.
And again in the early 2000s, they could have easily looked at what Nintendo & Sony both did with their console controllers to build a more ergonomic handheld.
Tactile feedback is nice but if the controller has poor ergonomics, the experince becomes a real downer.
@SantaFeFan posted:We all still keep in touch often! Lou, Neil, John, Mark, Bruce, Tyler, and I chat on the phone and exchange emails. Neil offers to assist Lionel when we chat. What an amazing time it was back in 2006, all driven by an unbelievable passion to create a system so unique and innovative. Everyone is doing well and prospering.
You must have been quite a team, the result was certainly stellar! 
"I invented a lot of it, patented it, and many products are still being sold and used after 20 years! I just like my Cab1. The batteries last for years, it is always on with a key press, quills the horn, runs the trains. Good enough to relax and get my “fix”. "
My apologies. Rushing to post before our Easter Brunch with son and his wife . Should have read "Jon Z uses his cab-1L. And he has forgotten more about Lionel command systems than 99.999% of hobbyists know."
Point being each of us has our preferences. Contrary to what some think, those preferences have virtually nothing to do with one's expertise or insights. All about what one likes.
Lionel cannot please everyone all the time, but they've managed to do well enough to be the dominant manufacturer of starter sets and command technologies over the last 25+ years. Make that 120+ years. Give Ryan, Dave and their teams time, and they likely will find the sweet spot in the marketplace, albeit constrained by resources, including market size and money. It's easy for those of us who don't work within those constraints and realities to make decisions for them, with no consequences, of course .
@H1000 posted:Which can be accomplished with an app and a connected gamepad-style controller.
My gripe about all of the current & past controllers is the ergonomics. In the early 90s while the CAB1 was still on the drawing board who seriously thought of that design? All they had to do is look at how some of the then-current gaming systems evolved from their 70s & 80's predecessors to come up with a better design. Instead, it was the Intellivision from the '70s that won:
But even the old Intellivision controller had buttons on the side that could be used by other fingers.
And again in the early 2000s, they could have easily looked at what Nintendo & Sony both did with their console controllers to build a more ergonomic handheld.
Tactile feedback is nice but if the controller has poor ergonomics, the experince becomes a real downer.
So many, many, many people have been, and continue to be, happy with the Cab 1 and the 1L. It's apparent that you don't share this opinion.
Especially in light of the discontinuances these folks are committed to seeing them (at least the 1L) go on as long as possible.
Is this a good time to be hammering on that original design?
Do you have any specific suggestions for improvements? If so, they probably won't be considered anyway since the end, and not the future, for handhelds seems to be near.
But if you will maybe you can tell us that you have a specific way to make smartphones naturally ergonomic for controlling things that move? There seems to be a need for this.
Mike
Wow another Base 3 discussion.
While I prefer to use my Cab2, I have operated my trains with HighRail App and iCab. I prefer the tactile feel of the remote. That being said I look forward to the Base 3 that will open up so much more and still allow all those who like the Cab 2 and Cab1L to continue to use them. Technology is moving forward. An App allows for so much more because it's not limited by hardware. Functions can be added to our trains and a control added to the app.
When all else fails the Cab2 still works with it. IMO the advantages will outweigh any perceived negatives. When Base3 is released I hope the Legacy Users Group can get together with Dave and do what we did with Legacy!
The fracas in the Taiwan Straits may delay all train stuff! I love my transformers.
Gunny
@MartyE posted:Wow another Base 3 discussion.
That being said I look forward to the Base 3 that will open up so much more and still allow all those who like the Cab 2 and Cab1L to continue to use them. Technology is moving forward. An App allows for so much more because it's not limited by hardware.
Like what? Other than the four digit engine address nothing has been announced. I don’t have 99 engines plus one so a Base 3 doesn’t give me anything new over my current setup and I suspect 99% of us are in the same boat.
I do feel those who want to get into command and due to what ever reason Lionel won’t have a system to sell for well over a year.
It seems like a "solution looking for a problem" MSRP, what around $500? Please I don't need an expensive devise in order that I get four digit addressing and SW/FW updates. The ones done on the CAB2 over the years were minor and easy to upgrade. And as been beat to death, using my phone/tablet to run my trains? Please. And Oh yes, a way so that all, (in my case, none) of the various other Lionel hand held's can be used by one unit? What joke. Sorry, Dave, et.al. you guys really needed to think thru a bit more.
So many, many, many people have been, and continue to be, happy with the Cab 1 and the 1L. It's apparent that you don't share this opinion.
Perhaps because there were no other options to choose from. If you don't like it, too bad because it's not evolving until a completely new replacement system is released. Even Nintendo in the 80's realized that their block square controllers needed help and released better options that fit in the user's hands better and with additional control features.
Is this a good time to be hammering on that original design?
Given the complete inability from 30 years ago to think outside of a literal "box" design, I wouldn't put much faith in their ability to build a better "One size fits some" remote today. Even the DCS & CAB2 remotes were sub-par for their time, but we bought and adapted to them because that's all there was available.
Do you have any specific suggestions for improvements? If so, they probably won't be considered anyway since the end, and not the future, for handhelds seems to be near.
Yeah, look at some modern high-end TV remotes and build something that naturally fits in your hand, and don't over compensate with size. If you're going to copy the Intellivision controller, at least incorporate the side buttons to enhance the usability and find ways to make the other four fingers of your hand usable beyond just holding the remote. Maybe make those side button functions customizable to whatever you as an operator want, they were already halfway there with the implementation of the "big red button".
But if you will maybe you can tell us that you have a specific way to make smartphones naturally ergonomic for controlling things that move? There seems to be a need for this.
Connected gamepads so that you can customize specific functions and commands to the buttons you want. Plenty of automation in this world already uses a smartphone interface with analog add-on controls similar to this in many industries. Heck, our seed dealer for our farm uses a gantry crane to load our trucks that run on an Android tablet with an add-on joystick. They can operate it via a touch screen or with the joystick attached to the tablet. Pick the controller that best fits your hands & meets your needs by customizing the buttons to match how your layout operates. Lionel could even build their gamepad interface module for Apple & Android devices and market it in their own catalog. Set it up with a default button layout but also allow the end user to remap button locations to their liking.
NOTE: PHOTOS DELETED PER OGR TOS COPYRIGHT POLICY
Here's my $.02 on the controller debate. First- I don't want to run my trains with a cell phone, or any other touch screen device. My favorite features of the CAB-2 were its absolute speed steps, and the detents of the Big Red Knob. Yes it was bulky, but it had a precision feel which is absent from the CAB-1 and CAB-1L.
I grew up with video games, owned and played most of the systems. I'm not convinced that a game controller with joysticks, triggers, etc., is necessary or desirable to run model trains. If the controller supports ergonomic one-handed operation, that's a boon. None of the controllers in the image above except possibly the last one could be used one-handed.
There are companies that make purpose-built model train controllers. North Coast Engineering (NCE) comes to mind. It was apparent 20 years ago that the DCS hand-held was just an inferior copy of the NCE controller. Presently, CVP Products (AirWire), and especially Ring Engineering (RailPro) make controllers. I've tried them both, and I like them both. These are much smaller companies than Lionel, yet somehow they are able to make and sell their own physical controllers. I'm still hoping for a CAB-3 to go with my BASE-3. Perhaps Lionel could make a deal with one of these companies?
First- I don't want to run my trains with a cell phone, or any other touch screen device.
The RailPro device you "like" is pretty much a smartphone device with a rotary knob. Everything you do on that thing is touch screen except turning that knob. If a turning knob is your requirement, why can't rolling a joystick in a circular motion CW or CCW accomplish the same feeling.
None of the controllers in the image above except possibly the last one could be used one-handed.
Some other controllers that are also not one handed - Cab1, Cab2, MTH DCS Remote, Railpro, CVP Airwire, NCE ProCab. While some functions can be operated with only one hand on these devices, their design still requires two hands to properly use the remotes. I don't know of anyone with long enough thumbs to reach the big red wheel on a CAB remote without using their other hand. This isn't an argument to say that app-based remotes are one-handed, but rather that every remote available to us (past & present) requires two hands for complete operation (except maybe the Lionchief remotes).
I'm still hoping for a CAB-3 to go with my BASE-3. Perhaps Lionel could make a deal with one of these companies?
I believe that the path forward for a CAB3 hardware remote will be utilizing the current CAB3 app with an add-on peripheral. I think that it would be very possible for Lionel to build (or contract with a 3rd party) a device that works exclusively with the CAB3 app.
I guess my advice would be to hang on to your controllers if that's what is causing you angst. As long as Lionel has parts they'll repair them.
As far as Base3 if you are only thinking you are getting 4 digit addressing out of it, I think you will be sadly mistaken. I suspect with this platform there can be features and operational functionality added pretty easily. While the hardware remote will be left behind the App will be able to integrate them easily into it's control.
What I don't understand is if you already have a Legacy System and are happy with it and Lionel will repair them at least for the foreseeable future then why are you upset about Base3? You don't seem to have anything to lose.
Personally I do like a remote but I am also someone that understands the need to move away from hardware based remotes and let someone else deal with that. It's not perfect but as long as Lionel can make an app that is responsive I think I'll be able to make the transition. Besides I'll still have my Cab2 and personally I think I probably look at my remote more than I think.
Again I think the possibilities outweigh the perceived negatives. I'll be the first to say though I could be wrong but the Legacy Users Group is looking forward to seeing what Dave and his team came up with.
@H1000 posted:I don't know of anyone with long enough thumbs to reach the big red wheel on a CAB remote without using their other hand. This isn't an argument to say that app-based remotes are one-handed, but rather that every remote available to us (past & present) requires two hands for complete operation (except maybe the Lionchief remotes).
Well maybe I'm a freak of nature but I operate the cab 2 one handed all of the time. No issues reaching the"big red knob" as you say either.
I like having one hand free to, throw a switch, grab rolling stock, pan a camera, sip a coffee or a beer etc.
The big red knob is actually a good design because it gives the user a relative idea of how much "throttle" they are giving , by the amount of rotation without having to look at anything. The number one complaint with The DCS handheld ,is the thumb wheel which has to be repeatedly scrolled to control throttle.
There is not enough travel on a gaming joystick to slowly modulate through 200 speed steps, with 1/2"of travel, it'll be all or nothing.
A gaming controller is designed to execute a multitude of commands in seconds. We aren't constantly accessing every single function on our trains every minute of run time. Not to mention. The features don't respond that fast anyway. Most of the time the train is running around the layout and ringing the whistle and bell. There simply is no need to have multiple fingers at the ready.
All of the "meat and potatoes " train operation can be accessed on the cab 2 without ever looking at the remote. I do it every operating session, one handed, even reaching the "big red knob". I've done multiple switching moves etc. One handed, without issue, not looking at a remote, or a screen, but the trains. Which imo, is the whole point.
Having said all of that. I suspect there's always a "chance" that we could see a new handheld in the future. The Cab1 was deemed obsolete, then eventually reappeared as the Cab1L. A few years later Tmcc reappeared in Lionchief 2.0.
I exclusively use the cab2 to control my trains. I still have cab1 that sits gathering dust just in case my cab2 breaks and it needs to go in for repair. I would love a new Cab 3 remote but that is not a viable option right now. I spoke with Dave Olsen about a Cab3. His reply was that it was not economically feasible to create one at this time without the price been ridiculously high. He specifically stated that creating a remote with a touch screen using current technology was expensive. We have already seen Lionel having to stop making the IRV2 sensors due to the price increase of components. Dave Olsen stated that on the forum months ago. As long as Lionel can keep my Cab2 working, I'm good. I didn't order a base 3, not because of the remote, but because I don't have any Lion Chief locs. Lion Chief 2.0 Plus engines support TMCC so all my locs work with one remote. There is no benefit for me to get a Base 3. After its out, and they offer new features in engines that require a base 3, I would consider it at that point. 4 digit addressing is not a feature I need as I don't own that many engines. For those that got started with Lion Chief locs and want to get into more feature engines with Legacy, the base 3 makes a lot of sense. Now, all your locs can be controlled with one system. That's a great upgrade path for those that started with Lion Chief.
I appreciate the discussion on a physical hand held and agree if the Cab 2 could be updated, you have the physical shell.
What I am still not clear on is the "value proposition" that the Base 3 is going to bring me. What will it allow me to do that I can't do today
My Cab 2 works fine (for now) and I also use the DCS app with Wi-Fi.
John
" For those that got started with Lion Chief locs and want to get into more feature engines with Legacy, the base 3 makes a lot of sense. Now, all your locs can be controlled with one system. That's a great upgrade path for those that started with Lion Chief."
No doubt this is one of the main purposes of the Base 3. One command base to serve them all .
@MartyE posted:As far as Base3 if you are only thinking you are getting 4 digit addressing out of it, I think you will be sadly mistaken. I suspect with this platform there can be features and operational functionality added pretty easily. While the hardware remote will be left behind the App will be able to integrate them easily into it's control.
If there are other features, they should advertise them. They might get more buyers.
Part of me wonders if the delays are related to a lack over preorders to make the whole thing practical in quantity.
That said, the way they should be approaching it is as an enabler for sales of locos. It should be similar to how Nintendo sells the systems at a slight loss or break even to make money on games.
Disagree The longer they wait to deliver, the more people will be come dis enchanted and dis interested. They got issues with this thing! Lionel added many features over the years to the CAB2. We wait...and wait...and wait....
@RickO posted:The number one complaint with The DCS handheld ,is the thumb wheel which has to be repeatedly scrolled to control throttle.
Our problem with the fragile thumb wheel is that it also is the selector button, MTH needed another button for that.
@SantaFeFan posted:I know that the team at Lionel wants the Base3 and Cab3 released to the hobby, because they have so much energy invested in the design and development. I can confirm it will be worth the wait, don't ask me how I know.
Titillating statement, that. 
One controller able to control everything will be quite an achievement. It doesn't seem surprising that it's taking a while to get it right. It was unfortunate timing for Lionel that the unavailablility of parts caused the demise of the Cab 2, and parts shortages affected Cab 1L availability, before they were able to get the Cab 3 completed and on the shelves.
These electronic parts shortages are everywhere, as we know. I have a friend who ordered a new GMC Yukon SUV (ordered more than a year ago) and received it in late February. He was told some of the features that would normally be on the vehicle wouldn't be on it. The reason - the chips necessary for the operation of those items were not available.
@SantaFeFan posted:We all still keep in touch often! Lou, Neil, John, Mark, Bruce, Tyler, and I chat on the phone and exchange emails. Neil offers to assist Lionel when we chat. What an amazing time it was back in 2006, all driven by an unbelievable passion to create a system so unique and innovative. Everyone is doing well and prospering.
Nice to hear that you guys are still hanging out together and doing well.
@rplst8 posted:If there are other features, they should advertise them. They might get more buyers.
Part of me wonders if the delays are related to a lack over preorders to make the whole thing practical in quantity.
That said, the way they should be approaching it is as an enabler for sales of locos. It should be similar to how Nintendo sells the systems at a slight loss or break even to make money on games.
Note I said features could be added which implies as Dave and his team create the ability to make a button or custom control is much simpler.
As far as preorders while I don’t know the numbers , Train Worlds Ken Jr. said more than once his preorders were very high. I suspect that’s true with other vendors.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The bean counters at Lionel have the wheel, and they've decided not to invest in a new remote. It's all about the bucks, they save money by not having any physical remote.
This is why the Cab2 Legacy should/can be adaptable to any updates and modernization.
A phone app can still be used by those who choose to do so.
Otherwise. If the big money investors only see the Lionel corporation as a Golden goose.
It will be milked until it no longer can produce and runs dry.
The bosses are only trying to keep the liquid (cash) flowing out of this Goose.
Hash tag: suckers greed
P.T. Barnum
@Walter Anderson posted:This is why the Cab2 Legacy should/can be adaptable to any updates and modernization.
The CAB2 is over 15 years old roughly. No one could have anticipated all of the possible scenarios that would change in the last 15 years especially with a hardware based remote. Lionel has kept the Cab2 relevant by having it still operate as it does now with Base3. Any new features that Base3 is delivered with and any new functions and features Lionel may add can easily be added to an App and most likely with some customized controls. Maybe that is what you were saying?
I'm in no rush and it sounds like the right people are involved!
FWIW...Trainworld now has Base 3 availability as September 30th 2023. (Don't shoot the messenger!)
I have a question about the Cab2 data into the Cab3 device.
Is there a port to plug into that will download all the numbers from the Cab2 base and remote, to be brought up into the Cab3 base? Or will this data,( numbers of engines, kinds, etc.), will have to be all done over via hand or orange modules?
@laz1957 posted:I have a question about the Cab2 data into the Cab3 device.
Is there a port to plug into that will download all the numbers from the Cab2 base and remote, to be brought up into the Cab3 base? Or will this data,( numbers of engines, kinds, etc.), will have to be all done over via hand or orange modules?
That's a very good question for @Dave Olson to chime in on. How do we transfer existing databases to Base3? Can we use LSU to copy or convert the Legacy Base database to Base3 or will we have to rebuild?
@MartyE posted:That's a very good question for @Dave Olson to chime in on. How do we transfer existing databases to Base3? Can we use LSU to copy or convert the Legacy Base database to Base3 or will we have to rebuild?
The BASE3 will have a port that will accept a black memory module. You can upload everything from your old system to the module and download it to the BASE3 from that module. The BASE3 will even include a black writable memory module.
OH MY, the issues that keep us up at night...SIGH
@H1000 posted:The BASE3 will have a port that will accept a black memory module. You can upload everything from your old system to the module and download it to the BASE3 from that module. The BASE3 will even include a black writable memory module.
Last I checked, the Black Module doesn't hold the ID for any engines, Train Build information, Switch and Accessory information. Sure you can create a Multi-Engine Module that contains the Names, Road Number and personality of the engines but without the database, there is no association with and ID.
I would hope there is a way to transfer the entire database. If not, for a smaller layout it probably won't be a big deal but for a large layout with a lot of TR (trains), Accessories, and Switches it could be a pain although 1 time. I suspect that LSU may get upgraded with a possible path to at least importing that existing Legacy (Base 2) information. Dave can tell us for sure.
@Don Beck posted:OH MY, the issues that keep us up at night...SIGH
I sleep pretty well.
Yea, me too...a gummy, a gummy there
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