Did Lionel actually sell any of these before the Pandemic and the chip shortage combined to block production on hundreds of thousands of electronics product lines? I notice Lionel lists this relatively new device as sold out, but I'm surprised to see none on eBay, which makes me wonder if Lionel old out of the initial run, and never made a second generation run?
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No base 3 yet. I don't know if Lionel even has a completed production sample yet.
"Sold out" likely means there are no more preorders available on the Lionel site.
There are still dealers that are taking preorders on these, however.
@PeterB posted:Did Lionel actually sell any of these before the Pandemic and the chip shortage combined to block production on hundreds of thousands of electronics product lines? I notice Lionel lists this relatively new device as sold out, but I'm surprised to see none on eBay, which makes me wonder if Lionel old out of the initial run, and never made a second generation run?
The base 3 was announced in January 2022, it is not possible for them to have sold any before the pandemic. The product is no out yet, but the first production run is likely sold out on Lionel's end. Dealers still have them. You will get a much better deal from a dealer than Lionel's website anyway, not to mention it is better for the hobby to have dealers.
I hope the base3 is not going to be a first come first served product. Hopefully there will be enough product to satisfy everyone including those entering Legacy for the first time. After all, the base3 is Lionel’s future.
@romiller49 posted:I hope the base3 is not going to be a first come first served product. Hopefully there will be enough product to satisfy everyone including those entering Legacy for the first time. After all, the base3 is Lionel’s future.
I'm not sure I understand. Aren't all things that get sold "first come, first served." IE, pre-orders get first priority, then the dealers sell to whomever next walks in wanting the product?
Agreed, it's better to buy from my local dealer (which I do as often as feasible from a price and availablity perspective).
Will ask them about their ability to acquire these. Was unaware of the timeline for the announcement -- thanks for setting me straight there.
When I see some of these ebay 'resellers' listing, as an example Menards cars, that you can buy for $23 on the Menards site going for 4x $ that it makes me sooo angry...I know, I know 'capitalism " etc. but really. I cant imagine what the CAB3 will go for WHEN they are available
@Andrew B. posted:I'm not sure I understand. Aren't all things that get sold "first come, first served." IE, pre-orders get first priority, then the dealers sell to whomever next walks in wanting the product?
Yes Andrew I agree. I’m just hoping the distributors get enough product to satisfy the small local shops that do not buy direct.
@SGP posted:The base 3 was announced in January 2022, it is not possible for them to have sold any before the pandemic. The product is no out yet, but the first production run is likely sold out on Lionel's end. Dealers still have them. You will get a much better deal from a dealer than Lionel's website anyway, not to mention it is better for the hobby to have dealers.
Nobody but Lionel has any BASE3's, there are no shipments yet.
I was wondering about that, sent email to my local dealer, but hadn’t heard back.
Maybe StubHub has them. 
John
My dealer contacted me to say they have neither base-3 nor cab2. I am blown away at the costs for cab2 I see out there.
According to Dave Olson, when I talked to him at the Amherst show in Jan. The Base3 is still under development. Still some kinks to work out. Has nothing to do with any so called chip shortage.
@superwarp1 posted:Has nothing to do with any so called chip shortage.
I hear ya ...
But there is no "so called" involved, in most cases. The chip shortage is real. It's still impacting many industries. I presently deal with it everyday in the automotive business.
What is not real however is using it as an excuse.
You make a very good point.
Mike
@superwarp1 posted:According to Dave Olson, when I talked to him at the Amherst show in Jan. The Base3 is still under development. Still some kinks to work out. Has nothing to do with any so called chip shortage.
Did I miss someone mention a chip shortage in this thread? I know it has been speculated in past threads but all I've heard from Dave via posts here and mentions on Demos with Dave was them wanting it be right before releasing.
Very likely a software holdup rather than hardware. Needing to orchestrate wifi, TMCC signaling, PDI, LC, etc all makes for a very complex integrated package for something that isn't an off the shelf computer with an app on top.
@SirCaptain posted:Very likely a software holdup rather than hardware. Needing to orchestrate wifi, TMCC signaling, PDI, LC, etc all makes for a very complex integrated package for something that isn't an off the shelf computer with an app on top.
It is too much in one package IMHO. Especially if the team at Lionel is as small as everyone claims. A claim that everyone also uses as the reason why a “remote with buttons” will never be in the cards again.
How many here would just like a remote that gives you full control over your Legacy locomotives? Forget Bluetooth, wifi, and LionChief. I have friends that just want to be able to run MU consists reliably and use the quilling whistle for locomotives they purchased recently.
@MartyE posted:Did I miss someone mention a chip shortage in this thread? I know it has been speculated in past threads but all I've heard from Dave via posts here and mentions on Demos with Dave was them wanting it be right before releasing.
Well crap right there in the title of the thread. I guess I need to get a new prescription.
As far as whether Lionel is doing too much with the App3, maybe but it's what they have to work with given the various control systems.
I would suspect if a new remote is built it will years away and most likely 3rd party. I think Lionel has committed themselves to the Cab3 app. Since I have a Legacy remote and am willing to try the app I am waiting and seeing what it can all do but again I do have a Cab2 so I have that option with Base3.
The unfortunate part of this is that the Legacy Base / Remote Hardware didn't over lap the release of Base3 so that their wasn't an absence of a full control system. I suspect that much like all other plans this one might have been induced by the pandemic. I think Lionel would have much rather had a smoother and more seamless transition from Legacy to Base3.
Lionel is a relatively small company. I think MTH has 3-5 full time employees and with Lionel if you take away the NASCAR diecast I can't imagine it's more than 20 folks maybe 30 dedicated to the train operation, maybe less. I have no inside info so this is just speculation. How many folks out those possible 30 are working on App 3 and splitting their time with all the other engineering involved to make new trains?
I would love them to produce a hardware remote whether it can operate all the flavors or just Legacy. Unfortunately if that happens ( write those cards and letters), eventually, I think we're more than a few years away from that.
I look forward to the App release. I know Dave has been working tirelessly to make it as perfect upon release as it can be. I also look forward to what new things it maybe able to do over the Cab2. From the few Demos with Dave that he has shown us it does look intriguing. Your mileage may and will mostly vary.
One word: patience. Two words: Universal Remote.
The reality is that much more important things, like antibiotics and disposables for medical equipment have seen serious shortages in the recent months, starting mostly at the beginning of the pandemic. The reasons are not simple, but the reality is there. So we need to accept that the slow development and release of the Base 3 (and MTH's much simpler, at least in theory, to produce, wi-fi TIU) may reflect many factors, including supply chain issues and staffing shortages. That's what we hear from manufacturers of vital medical supplies, which are multi-gazzillion dollar companies. Not surprising Lionel and MTH are affected too.
As for the present, those who have been buying Legacy locos for years and didn't buy the cab-2 and command base mostly have themselves to blame for not having one. Looks in mirror. Those who are new to Legacy can use the app or Universal Remote for all the important functions. $55. No, you cannot quill your whistle with the Universal Remote. Greater tragedies have happened . See under "patience."
“Those who are new to Legacy can use the app or Universal Remote for all the important functions. $55. No, you cannot quill your whistle with the Universal Remote”.
This is where I’m at. I have 4 Legacy locomotives, another coming next month and more in the works. I guess there’s an advantage to me never owning a Base/Cab 1 or 2 and not experiencing all the functions. I preordered my Base 3 last May and will just wait patiently for how long it takes as long as it functions properly.
Gene
@Genemed posted:I guess there’s an advantage to me never owning a Base/Cab 1 or 2 and not experiencing all the functions. I preordered my Base 3 last May and will just wait patiently for how long it takes as long as it functions properly.
Gene
Gene you definitely have the advantage. For us using a hardware remote, it will be a harder transition than those who never had one.
Last night while I was operating trains, I realized that I look at the remote more than I thought. While the whistles and bell slider were never looked at, even when adjusting the throttle I had the tendency to look at the speed step I was on and where the train brake was set. Even so I didn't have to but I do look at it when making those adjustments not to make the actual change but to see where the speed and brake setting are.
@MartyE For an older retired person, it may seem odd, but I very much appreciate and like the touch screen technology. If there was a choice today to purchase either the Cab 2 remote or Cab 3 base with app, I’d go with the app. It’s strictly jmo. I use my older iPad mini with the universal remote just so I can run multiple locomotives.
Gene
Apps - they replace the CabX firmware with downloadable software and eliminate the manufacture of hardware for the remote. Unfortunate, IMHO. I always felt the Cab2 is superior to the iCab app. Quilling whistle in particular - the iCab app doesn't seem to consistently trigger all whistle intensity levels. The tactile Cab2 doesn't need my focus on the screen and it commands the full whistle tone range. The two button screens are toggled with a button which always works compared to trying to get the swipe gesture correct when using the app. I can only hope that Lionel improves the whistle button reaction on their new app.
A suggestion for a new app feature:
At a show last Sunday, I had an iPad on a stand running the apps - sometimes outside the layout so kids could blow the whistle and trigger sounds. The multiplicity of touch controls on a small screen and instruction to "don't touch that button" guarantees operational "problems". The near infinite design options of software-based user interfaces makes me hopeful a forthcoming app(s) could allow a supervisory operator to configure a simple screen for a young operator. Allow whistle, bell, dialog, and other sounds. Limit speed options. And please, get the kill everything button off the screen. Considering my fat-finger errors using a phone, I would build a custom screen for me to use.
@Tracker John your comments about the app make a lot of sense, especially the peril of a "kill everything" button. Some day, I hope to get my hands on a CAB2, because I sure don't like the LionChief app on my phone, if that's a canary in the coal mine.
@PeterB posted:@Tracker John your comments about the app make a lot of sense, especially the peril of a "kill everything" button. Some day, I hope to get my hands on a CAB2, because I sure don't like the LionChief app on my phone, if that's a canary in the coal mine.
The "Kill Everything" button on the iCab app requires you push and hold it for 3 seconds before it will HALT. More than a few people complained that it didn't work when pressed but the intent is a press and hold to prevent accidental triggering. I suspect App3 will be the same.
I agree though for purposes of getting young folks involved that either a pre-built simple screen is available or something that is user configurable. I suspect it would be easier to have a pre-built simple screen but I don't know.
Thanks for the perspective, @Landsteiner -- all great points. For my part, I honestly don't know what it means to "quill your horn," so I am not missing that functionality
In my mind Lionel should have just updated the Legacy system with components available today.
Trying to cram all of the Bluetooth and Lionchief support into this new unit makes me question who the target audience is? It's certainly not me...
I also wonder how the decision to include all of this stuff in Base3 has affected the timeline getting into production.
@romiller49 posted:I hope the base3 is not going to be a first come first served product. Hopefully there will be enough product to satisfy everyone including those entering Legacy for the first time. After all, the base3 is Lionel’s future.
@Don Beck posted:When I see some of these ebay 'resellers' listing, as an example Menards cars, that you can buy for $23 on the Menards site going for 4x $ that it makes me sooo angry...I know, I know 'capitalism " etc. but really. I cant imagine what the CAB3 will go for WHEN they are available
Order two and sell the 2nd one on eBay to pay for both... sad state of affairs.
Look at what CAB1, CAB1L, Legacy 990, DCS TIU & WIU are selling for these days!! I bought a couple of Lionel 993 extension sets on amazon for a great price and put them on eBay for an auction starting at $1. I didn't force anyone to pay through the nose, they made that choice.
@MichRR714 posted:In my mind Lionel should have just updated the Legacy system with components available today.
Unfortunately that is part of the problem. Technology is changing faster. What Lionel builds today, could be obsolete in half the time the CAB2 was. As far as who the target audience is, with LC morphing into LC+ and then LC+2.0 I think Lionel kind of created that problem. Don't get me wrong I think the LC+ 2.0, best of both worlds, was a great step but I'm not so certain that the Base3 needed to go back to LC and LC+ either. Although I thought it was cool to see Dave operate a LC engine from the Cab2 so maybe I'm wrong about that.
"I'm not so certain that the Base3 needed to go back to LC and LC+ either. "
I'm certain this is a good idea as they wanted any customer who bought a LC set (or a used LC or LC+ loco) to be able to to control their loco by using the Base 3 and the LionChief/cab 3 app. Sure one could continue to use the remote that came with the set or the Universal Remote, but the Base 3 will provide an important additional option that some folks have asked for, controlling all command Lionel locos through one device.
@Landsteiner posted:I'm certain this is a good idea as they wanted any customer who bought a LC set (or a used LC or LC+ loco) to be able to to control their loco by using the Base 3 and the LionChief/cab 3 app. Sure one could continue to use the remote that came with the set or the Universal Remote, but the Base 3 will provide an important additional option that some folks have asked for, controlling all command Lionel locos through one device.
I'll have to disagree with you. I think we'll ultimately find that deciding to go down this road is part of the cause of the production delays. In a market thirsting for the availability of a command system for the higher end products this was a bad idea to try and be all things to all people.
@Tracker John posted:A suggestion for a new app feature:
At a show last Sunday, I had an iPad on a stand running the apps - sometimes outside the layout so kids could blow the whistle and trigger sounds. The multiplicity of touch controls on a small screen and instruction to "don't touch that button" guarantees operational "problems". The near infinite design options of software-based user interfaces makes me hopeful a forthcoming app(s) could allow a supervisory operator to configure a simple screen for a young operator. Allow whistle, bell, dialog, and other sounds. Limit speed options. And please, get the kill everything button off the screen. Considering my fat-finger errors using a phone, I would build a custom screen for me to use.
I have been working on a customizable app-to-controller interface that allows you to assign functions from a Bluetooth-connected controller to run specific functions on an app. You bring up a very good idea and one that I did try out with my kids, nieces, and nephews. I simply removed functions from the controller that didn't allow access to certain critical operations like uncoupling, quickset speeds, and smoke. The app already supports a MAX SPEED option so that part was easy. I cast the screen of the android device to a TV and only gave access to the physical controller to prevent those little fingers from using the touch interface. I think I'll try to do a video demo of it but for reference below is the video I made last year which demos an app-based controller with DCS:
I plan to adapt this control method into the CAB3 app when it's released. The speed slider is going to be the hard part...
" In a market thirsting for the availability of a command system for the higher end products this was a bad idea to try and be all things to all people."
You could be right about the delays being, at least in part, related to the complexity of the task of developing the Base 3 and the cab 3 app to control LionChief locos. Nonetheless, there are a huge number of LionChief and LionChief + locos out there from set sales alone.
Lionel is still producing LionChief locos (both sets and separate sale) for very reasonable prices. Including these customers in their plans going forward may be vital to the overall business development plans.
It is certain that they are selling orders of magnitude more LionChief locos, between sets and separate sale locos than they are selling higher end locos such as VisionLine. Making sure that their technology plans allow these customers to move up to the Base 3 without losing the ability to control their LionChief locos through the app may be a business decision, and may turn out to be prudent.
@Landsteiner posted:" In a market thirsting for the availability of a command system for the higher end products this was a bad idea to try and be all things to all people."
You could be right about the delays being, at least in part, related to the complexity of the task of developing the Base 3 and the cab 3 app to control LionChief locos. Nonetheless, there are a huge number of LionChief and LionChief + locos out there from set sales alone.
Lionel is still producing LionChief locos (both sets and separate sale) for very reasonable prices. Including these customers in their plans going forward may be vital to the overall business development plans.
It is certain that they are selling orders of magnitude more LionChief locos, between sets and separate sale locos than they are selling higher end locos such as VisionLine. Making sure that their technology plans allow these customers to move up to the Base 3 without losing the ability to control their LionChief locos through the app may be a business decision, and may turn out to be prudent.
Whether it’s agreeable or not to others, intelligently well put!
@Landsteiner posted:"I'm not so certain that the Base3 needed to go back to LC and LC+ either. "
I'm certain this is a good idea as they wanted any customer who bought a LC set (or a used LC or LC+ loco) to be able to to control their loco by using the Base 3 and the LionChief/cab 3 app. Sure one could continue to use the remote that came with the set or the Universal Remote, but the Base 3 will provide an important additional option that some folks have asked for, controlling all command Lionel locos through one device.
Well I’ve been wrong before so either way I’m good. But my experience is I never had an interest in LC until LC+2.0 came out. So for me that where I am looking at it from.
Since I was totally wrong on Lionel making another Big Boy I am probably wrong about this as well. LOL!
" But my experience is I never had an interest in LC until LC+2.0 came out."
Mostly I've bought a few Legacy locos in the last 10 years or so, but I kind of like the postwar feel of the LionChief locos, the $200 or so price, and have also bought a few LionChief equipped sets (Area 51, Christmas, and Willy Wonka is next).
@Landsteiner posted:"I'm not so certain that the Base3 needed to go back to LC and LC+ either. "
I'm certain this is a good idea as they wanted any customer who bought a LC set (or a used LC or LC+ loco) to be able to to control their loco by using the Base 3 and the LionChief/cab 3 app. Sure one could continue to use the remote that came with the set or the Universal Remote, but the Base 3 will provide an important additional option that some folks have asked for, controlling all command Lionel locos through one device.
Explain to me why someone who spends $200 on an LC locomotive (which they can already control with their phone or remote) is going to spend another $500 on the Base3 so they can…
…control their locomotive with their phone or…
…a Cab2 which they can’t get?
Sorry someone at the big L is asleep at the wheel.
If I were wanting to operate my layout, being a TMCC/Legacy Lover, I would, at this time, look to buy a Cab 1L base and cab 1L set and this way one could operate TMCC/Legacy/LionChief 2.0 equipped engines, and with the right accessory controllers, switches, accessories, blocks, etc.. yes, IPhone control is getting very popular, LionChief 2.0 is getting better and more reliable, but the Cab 1L offers really reliable train control. The Cab 1L base will not work with the Cab 2 remotes, so be aware if that fact. The Cab 3 App system is supposedly coming in December, and will be in the line up in the future catalogs. It’s going to open up many awesome features, possibly better radio signals for our layouts. (Operating our trains in TMCC/Legacy brought me back into the hobby back in1996) Happy Railroading Everyone
"Explain to me why someone who spends $200 on an LC locomotive (which they can already control with their phone or remote) is going to spend another $500 on the Base3 so they can…
…control their locomotive with their phone or…
…a Cab2 which they can’t get?"
Perhaps because they've started buying Legacy or LionChief +2.0 locos, and want to operate them all with one system/one remote. But they still want to operate their LionChief locos. Perhaps they purchase a Base 3, and then they can use a cab-1L or the cab 3 app to control all of those Lionel locos through the Base 3.
@Landsteiner posted:Perhaps they purchase a Base 3, and then they can use a cab-1L or the cab 3 app to control all of those Lionel locos through the Base 3.
You can already do this with a BASE2, LCS-WiFi & CAB3 app. The only thing you won't be able to do is run the older non-Bluetooth locomotives.
The only thing the BASE3 brings to the table is integrated functions of the universal remote bridged to current owners of CAB1L, CAB2, and MTH DCS remote / app users.
Yes, a few of those who started & kept Lionchief & the defunct Lionchief+ motive power and have now graduated to legacy could see this as valuable. However, Lionchief in itself hasn't been around long enough (like postwar) for most of us to develop an unbreakable attachment to it. I don't see too many high-dollar purchasers of Legacy & Lionel premium command equipment investing in LC and likewise, those who have stepped up from LC to legacy have either moved on or sold those entry offerings for better equipment.
The addition of the RF & Bluetooth control in the BASE3 is a bit of a novelty feature but also necessary for those who want one device to run them all.
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