lionel base3 and chip shortage

@BOB WALKER posted:

Have you ever handed a smart device with a train control app to a youngster and had them run trains on a layout? Try it some time.

Bob,

What exactly does this prove?

• That traditionalists are wrong for insisting on a dedicated, wireless remote?  (BTW -- Remember when traditional in our hobby meant something very different?)
• That youngsters are smarter than us, and that observing this we should be shamed into both admitting it and dropping our futile request for a dedicated handheld?
• That we're all luddites for not wanting to use our phones to control or access every stinking thing on the face of the earth, especially for things for which they're not ideally suited?  Or, worse yet poorly suited?

Do you not understand that people will not be happy when you take something important away from them, that they've had for many years, unless you provide a suitable replacement?

There's a tendency in today's world, for "influencers" to ratchet up the rhetoric when they encounter pushback on their views or comments.  The result, although maybe not planned to be so, is that the volume on every conversation gets cranked up substantially.  If someone doesn't agree with you just yell louder and they'll soon buckle.

No amount of badgering will change these "traditional" views.  Additionally, and unfortunately for those of us who follow this forum, no matter how loud this conversation gets a substantial number of folks won't be backing down any time soon.

Mike

BTW -- For what it's worth I do not have a problem with newbies or youngsters, or anyone else, using a phone app to control their trains, as an option to a traditional handheld.   It appears, however, that too many folks do have a problem with the opposite.

@BOB WALKER posted:

Have you ever handed a smart device with a train control app to a youngster and had them run trains on a layout? Try it some time.

Kids today are addicted to their devices.

Adding a cell phone control for o guage trains does not a model railroader make.

Having said that, my daughter had no problem using my Legacy remote way back when she was 6, even ran the TMCC crane without issue.

One of the popular O guage youtubers that is a forum member, had an episode involving his fiance. It was rather interesting when he let her run the trains via the app. Nearly the entire time was spent looking at the device in order to find the touch screen icon to activate whichever function.

I prefer to watch my trains respond to specific functions. I have enough screen time the rest of the day.

Half of the reason for the base 3 is to fix a problem Lionel created with Lionchief that never really existed prior. Many of the Lionchief offerings were originally equipped with TMCC 20 years ago or so, In which case the old Cab1, Cab 2, and cab1L could run anything command equipped Lionel offered. I started off with semi scale pacifics, berkshires and Lionmaster  and the Cab1.

So now after 3 versions of Lionchief in which the last version is "formerly obsolete" TMCC equipped. Lionel now has a compatibility problem and created a box to to make all of this Lionchief. Lionchief Plus Lionchief plus 2.0 all work together by a chosen handheld.

I'm not against the app operation of trains, different strokes for different folks, and its nice to have options. I just don't see it "saving" the hobby because you can associate a cell phone with it.

It sounds like Base 3 will fore full that old axiom " The second mouse gets the cheese".

Charlie

@RickO posted:

So now after 3 versions of Lionchief in which the last version is "formerly obsolete" TMCC equipped. Lionel now has a compatibility problem and created a box to to make all of this Lionchief. Lionchief Plus Lionchief plus 2.0 all work together by a chosen handheld.

In an amusing twist, Lionel did something that I stated from the very beginning.  When they introduced LC+, I opined that it should have had TMCC.  What do you know, not long after LC+ 2.0 shows up with TMCC.

All these different control systems have gotten so varied (and confusing as to what runs what) I guess sometime I'll have to do a flowchart or something to figure it out!  For now, I have Legacy, TMCC and LC+ engines, and wonder why I need a Base3 if I already have a LC Universal controller and a Legacy 1L controller. Is there anything I can't run just with these?

I understand the Base3 will allow a "screen control" system with a cell phone app, and add a few more control options (especially for the LionChief engines), but is there any other advantage to spending $500 on a Base3?

@breezinup posted:

All these different control systems have gotten so varied (and confusing as to what runs what) I guess sometime I'll have to do a flowchart or something to figure it out!  For now, I have Legacy, TMCC and LC+ engines, and wonder why I need a Base3 if I already have a LC Universal controller and a Legacy 1L controller. Is there anything I can't run just with these?

I understand the Base3 will allow a "screen control" system with a cell phone app, and add a few more control options (especially for the LionChief engines), but is there any other advantage to spending $500 on a Base3?

Nope, as of now.  Other than having 99 engines and being able to use four digit addressing for a new engines to get past the 99 TMCC limit.  Lionel is not saying anything about new features that the Base3 might be able to do in the future.  As long as your Legacy remote and base work, plus lionel can still fix them.  I would stay pat, I am.

"For now, I have Legacy, TMCC and LC+ engines, and wonder why I need a Base3 if I already have a LC Universal controller and a Legacy 1L controller. Is there anything I can't run just with these?"

Conventional locos .  But the Base 3 won't address that.  With all the angst about the delays in the Base 3, it seems to escape attention that the  Universal Remote or the smart device Lionel App will control anything made by Lionel in the last few years or in future.  For older TMCC or Legacy locos, you'll still need the TMCC/Legacy base and cab1 or cab-1L or cab-2 (Legacy handheld).   Older TMCC or Legacy locos do not have Bluetooth and won't respond to the Universal Remote.

So you are set for the foreseeable future unless your command base dies.

Fortunately I was knee deep in MTH tinplate while all of this Lionel controller business was going on.

Did Lionel ever ask any of the hobbyists that they serve what the hobbyists wanted before they proceeded with the Cab 3 no remote approach?

The Cab 3 seems squarely aimed at the next generation of Lionel customers.  Those invested in prior controller/OS iterations had just better get used to it.

Looking up and down repeatedly at your phone or tablet to control your trains while they run on your layout sounds a bit like a version of distracted automobile driving.

Maybe a third party can develop and market a CAB 3 compatible Geezer hand held controller!  It seems to have worked for cell phones.  An AARP discount will be available too.

But wait all this is likely irrelevant as the next step in the march of progress may be an AI controller which will run your layout the way it thinks you want to run it or maybe better.

Look Ma, no hands!

Thanks very much for the info, Gary, and Landsteiner. Your answers are what I thought - just wanted to see if I was missing anything. In addition, if I want screen operation using my iPhone, the Lionel app already provides that (or at least most features, as I understand it) without a Base3. Just have to wait and see if the Base3 has any hidden surprises worth $500, I guess.

@Former Member posted:

In appealing to younger Lionel customers CAB 3 has obviously left Lionel's aging base feeling a bit like chopped liver.

No amount of Lionel saying how much we are going to love CAB 3 will change that perception IMO.

Well, there's a wide, wide range of varied things that fit into that category besides the Cab 3!  And noone's going to stop the forward movement of electronics in it's tracks. Like it or not, everyone has to stay flexible in this era of rapid change.

Also, while I don't think I need it, it's premature to judge the Cab 3 before anyone has a chance to use it. The only outside feedback so far that I'm aware of is from that one railroad club that got a chance to use it when Dave from Lionel visited them, and their impressions were all very positive. (And a significant number of them were't spring chickens!)

@Former Member posted:

In appealing to younger Lionel customers CAB 3 has obviously left Lionel's aging base feeling a bit like chopped liver.

No amount of Lionel saying how much we are going to love CAB 3 will change that perception IMO.

Maybe a third party can develop and market a CAB 3 compatible Geezer hand held controller!

One should only speak for themselves. I'm 60, my dad's 85.  We both love the ability to run trains anyway we desire, including the Lionel App.

My dad's been running trains since 1945.

Imagine if Lionel open-sourced their design. I suspect it would lead to a lot of creativity in the industry and some very well received controllers.  In the long run, I suspect it would also help Lionel gain more market share.  

Well, you'll still be able to use the CAB2 and CAB1L with the BASE3, so as long as you treat your old remotes with care, you'll have years of operation even if you have the BASE3.  I "think" you'll be able to run the LC/LC+ models using the physical CAB2 and CAB1L remotes as well as with the CAB3 app.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, you'll still be able to use the CAB2 and CAB1L with the BASE3, so as long as you treat your old remotes with care, you'll have years of operation even if you have the BASE3.  I "think" you'll be able to run the LC/LC+ models using the physical CAB2 and CAB1L remotes as well as with the CAB3 app.

Correct. Dave demo’d a Cab 2 controlling a LC engine on Demos with Dave.

@RickO posted:

Half of the reason for the base 3 is to fix a problem Lionel created with Lionchief that never really existed prior. Many of the Lionchief offerings were originally equipped with TMCC 20 years ago or so, In which case the old Cab1, Cab 2, and cab1L could run anything command equipped Lionel offered. I started off with semi scale pacifics, berkshires and Lionmaster  and the Cab1.

So now after 3 versions of Lionchief in which the last version is "formerly obsolete" TMCC equipped. Lionel now has a compatibility problem and created a box to to make all of this Lionchief. Lionchief Plus Lionchief plus 2.0 all work together by a chosen handheld.

I'm not against the app operation of trains, different strokes for different folks, and its nice to have options. I just don't see it "saving" the hobby because you can associate a cell phone with it.

I’m not against the apps either. To each their own. I want everyone to enjoy the trains the way they want to.

But from a business standpoint, like you say the Base3 only solves controlling the LionChief engines that don’t have Bluetooth. Or someone that has more than three Bluetooth engines running at the same time. That seems like a very small segment of the population.

But then I could be underestimating the “gotta have it” and Big L can do no wrong crowd.

I’m in my 30s and would prefer a remote over an app but is what it is I guess. I just got back into trains right before Covid hit. I invested into MTH DCS and figured I’d get a lionel control system sooner than later. I was wrong about the sooner part. But good news is I see train world is saying the base3 will be in stock at the end of March.

As a "returnee" after about 50+ years, I like the idea of hand controllers vs. apps. I tend to like the handhelds better. Eventually I'll "upgrade" to the Base3. Right now, benchwork and the layout take priority.  

So at xmas had some older folks (grandparents, and family friends) over - all of them had lionel trains when they were young.  I told them to download the LionChief app - and after about 3 minutes they were running everything from the polar express to my new big boy on their own controllers.  Not one of them asked for a remote or to use the handles on the ZW...  although we did do that with my dads old post-war hudson.  It was a lot of fun, and in a few minutes we had multiple people operating trains who had not since they were kids.  not saying its for everyone, but it got a lot of people involved quickly and made for a good time.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Bob,

What exactly does this prove?

• That traditionalists are wrong for insisting on a dedicated, wireless remote?  (BTW -- Remember when traditional in our hobby meant something very different?)
• That youngsters are smarter than us, and that observing this we should be shamed into both admitting it and dropping our futile request for a dedicated handheld?
• That we're all luddites for not wanting to use our phones to control or access every stinking thing on the face of the earth, especially for things for which they're not ideally suited?  Or, worse yet poorly suited?

Do you not understand that people will not be happy when you take something important away from them, that they've had for many years, unless you provide a suitable replacement?

There's a tendency in today's world, for "influencers" to ratchet up the rhetoric when they encounter pushback on their views or comments.  The result, although maybe not planned to be so, is that the volume on every conversation gets cranked up substantially.  If someone doesn't agree with you just yell louder and they'll soon buckle.

No amount of badgering will change these "traditional" views.  Additionally, and unfortunately for those of us who follow this forum, no matter how loud this conversation gets a substantial number of folks won't be backing down any time soon.

Mike

BTW -- For what it's worth I do not have a problem with newbies or youngsters, or anyone else, using a phone app to control their trains, as an option to a traditional handheld.   It appears, however, that too many folks do have a problem with the opposite.

I take note on one thing you said….A youngsters are not smarter than we are, two it’s our generation that invented all of this back to Apollo and three and most importantly the younger crowd could not get out of a paper bag without help or whining. LMAO