Lionel Challenger 6-11220 from 2010 Production Run

In addition to the two speakers in the tender. The VL challenger also has one in the boiler of the locomotive as well, creating a stereo sound effect. 

That tether connects the speaker in the boiler of the locomotive to the audio boards in the tender.

SPEAKER TETHER / LOCO / VISIO CHALL use 6108361141

Aha!   Thanks RickO!  And the usual electronic connector (I can't think of its name) is banded to the top of the drawbar?

That's the I.nfra R.ed transmitter banded to the top of the drawbar.

RickO, thanks a bunch for your info. 

I saw on a listing of this model that there is a required battery; does anyone know if that is true and where it is placed and what it is used for??

A 9v battery is optional on most if not all legacy /vl locos up until the past few years when Lionel has omitted the battery connector.( Having said that, the plug in port for the battery is still on the board and Gunrunner John has developed a BCR that can be used in this port on newer Lionel.)

The battery is used to keep the sound functioning in a conventional environment during direction changes.

Typically, in a command envioronment the 9v battery is not needed.

 However, It can also help when there are  larger power breaks in the track, usually over turnouts that may cause the sound to drop out.

Some brands of track have bigger "dead spots" on turnouts than others. I myself have a fastrack layout and have never had any sound dropouts on any of my Legacy /Tmcc stuff so I've never needed to install the battery in the tender.

Having said all that. There was an issue with the sound boards that when using the optional 9v battery. The boards would stay powered up and drain the battery. Lionel implemented a "fix' and Challenger owners could remove and send the boards in to be repaired. 

Info on that here ( scroll down): https://www.lionelsupport.com/...0&productNumber=

If your running command on your layout. I'd get the loco and if you lose sound over turnouts then consider a battery or BCR option. You'll probably want to determine if the boards had the "fix" and go from there.

Answered my own question; found the owners manual at the Lionel website; yes, there is a 9volt battery in the tender; also found that there is a bug in the 3 boards in the tender where even though the loco is powered down, the boards drain the 9volt battery; this results in a loss of sound over dead spots in the track or over switch track; the fix is send the boards back to Lionel to be re-programmed.  Wonder if a YLB would be another solution?

Update: OOPS RickO, while I was doing my research and smithing my message above, you graciously answered; many thanks!! 

RickM46 posted:

  Wonder if a YLB would be another solution?

I would like to think so. Thats Gunrunnerjohns baby of course I'm sure he would know.

Where is he anyway? |LOL. He should have already chimed in on this, he's the expert.

Thanks again RickO, see my update above.  Since I run in Command environment and with Fastrack, then there would be no sound drop; am seriously considering the 2010 Challenger if I can get it for a reasonable price.

I say go for it Rick. IMO the early Legacy and VL stuff is still some of Lionels best to date. The sound packages are a bit more unique and the build quality seems better as well. 

If you have any issues with the sound/sound board I'm sure you can easily sort them out here. Worst case scenario, thats a Mike Reagan era Lionel loco. An email to him will surely get answers.

I agree; being a Mike Reagan loco, I am sure if there are any problems, he would come thru.  Am considering a few that are on the bay - one has the sound board fix.

Just for the heck of it, I dropped an email to Mike R.

Update: Mike replied promptly; he can handle the tender board issue.

I don't have this engine but I do have the Lionmaster Big Boy from the same time frame. I can tell you from my experience that the tender will drain a regular 9V battery after the first use. I installed one of GRJ's YLB and it now works perfectly. After running the engine and powering off the layout I can hear a faint electrical hum coming from the tender which stops after a few seconds. I believe that is the issue with the sound board and the YLB fixed that to my sanctification.

Thanks Davety; I will give GRJ a yell and see if he can sell me YLB for the Challenger.

Have a NIB Challenger 6-11210 from the 2010 production run coming from the bay; will be shipped Saturday; will see if sound is an issue on my carpet layout driven by a ZWL. 

I suspect Gunrunner is at York but will give him a yell after he gets back re the YLB.

My 6-11210 Vision Line Union Pacific Challenger #3967 has Gunrunner John's #10500 YLB Battery in the tender to help keep the sound on while traveling over my #5 Atlas O switches.  It has improved the operation of the engine.

The whistle sound on my 6-11210 VL Challenger #3967 is muffled (not crisp) with three distinct tones to the whistle.  It is quite different from the whistles on my Vision Line Big Boys and the new 1931260 Challenger #3985 just produced.  The whistle in the newer UP Big Boy and Challenger do not quill like the 6-11210 VL Challenger.  The new whistle sounds the same in both engines, with very little movement in quilled tones.

The YLB Batteries are available from Henning's Trains for $39.95 and are listed under Electrical on their website. The #10500 connects to original battery cables.  The #10510 has a plug that goes into the sound board for engines that are not equipped with a battery cable.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John R, thanks for the info; good to know the characteristics of the Challenger ahead of time - I don't like surprises.

So, the YLB you used for your Challenger 6-11210 #3967 is the #10500??   Took a look at that battery on Hennings trains; saw on one end the usual terminals that connect to the 9V battery; on the other end, there was a single red wire; do you recall what you connected that red wire to?

RickM45,

The red wire connects to the center pickup roller power.  I had to carefully shave-off the insulation on the tender center pick-up power wire and wrap the red wire around it before soldering the red wire in place.  I used electrical tape to cover the exposed wire.  Clean the power wire with an Exacto knife, carefully taking shavings off the insulation midway on the power wire.

Some engines have screws to the power pick-up rollers, but I don't believe this is the case on the Challenger. I did thirty (30) steam engines with Gunrunner John's YLB Batteries.  They made running steam engines on my Atlas O switches fun again.

Photos are of a C&O tender.  I did not photograph my Challenger install.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Thanks a bunch John; the tips are priceless!  I get it - the red wire keeps the YLB charged.  Will order the #10500 YLB from Hennings.

Just thought I’d pipe in. As mentioned there is the issue of the sound boards on the 2010 VL Challenger. I got one last year NIB and I was having sound issues with no battery. Lionel still sent me a shipping label and reflashed the board and sent them back for free! Best part for me was I was able to remove the boards and just send those in rather than risk shipping damage. Since then even without a battery I’ve had no issues with it what so ever. 

Zachariah, thanks for the info!  When you got the RA from Lionel for your board, was it because you bought the loco from a Lionel Authorized dealer? 

RickM46 posted:

Zachariah, thanks for the info!  When you got the RA from Lionel for your board, was it because you bought the loco from a Lionel Authorized dealer? 

Nope it was a eBay find. If course it was 2 months before the new ones were announced and then all the prices started to fall but oh well it’s a great engine. 

Thanks Zachariah!  I have a YLB coming from Hennings Trains; but, it is nice to know that Lionel will still reprogram the boards.  Prices have not dropped that much with the advent of the latest release; seems there is a brisk market for older Legacy engines.

John R - thanks for the added pictures of your installation of the YLB!! Big help.

NIB Challenger 6-11210 from 2010 production run showed up today; bought from the Bay from ranz62; in perfect condition; looking at the pickup rollers, this loco had never been run or at most, a few feet; smokes like crazy; whistles great; everything works; no blemishes; just as the seller promised; am as impressed with this loco as with the Big Boy.  Did not install a 9V battery in the tender and had no sound issues - but, my carpet layout is Fasttrack only and has no switch track; will install the YLB from Hennings anyway when it arrives.

ranz62 packed the original factory black Vision Line box in a shipper of his own construction; never saw anything like it; very thick cardboard; copious amounts of 2 inch foam wrapped around the Vision Line box (pic on the left); completely covered in some type of plastic tape so that it was waterproof: see pics; good seller to deal with.

RickM46,

I am glad the engine arrived safely. It is a very nice engine.

I am curious if your whistle is "breathy/airy/muffled slightly, or if I have a sound issue with my engine.  Enjoy.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

RickO posted:

I say go for it Rick. IMO the early Legacy and VL stuff is still some of Lionels best to date. The sound packages are a bit more unique and the build quality seems better as well. 

Couldn't agree more!

I’m very grateful for the info on reflashing the boards still being a possibility. At the time this issue first emerged, I did not send mine in because I did not see any point as I had no sound drop outs and wasn’t planning to use a battery, Now I regret not getting it sorted out just for the sake of having the engine operable in the way it was intended.

John Rowlen posted:

RickM46,

I am glad the engine arrived safely. It is a very nice engine.

I am curious if your whistle is "breathy/airy/muffled slightly, or if I have a sound issue with my engine.  Enjoy.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Hi John, mine is not muffled; however, I also tested it without connecting the loco usb? plug to the tender and it then sounded muffled slightly; when I connected the loco usb? to the tender, it was vibrant and not muffled anymore.  Maybe you could check that connection and check the volume control. 

Hancock, I have no 9 volt battery in mine and have not had any sound issues; but, will install the YLB when it arrives anyway.

Discovered a few assembly issues while lubing the engine this AM; with the engine up side down in the cradle:

On the front drive truck, there was a fat black wire going from the bottom of the boiler to the truck; it was a little too long and laid on the front left drive wheel; taped it up against the boiler to get it out of the way.

One of the pickup rollers on the loco was squeezed too tight in its mount and would not turn freely; spread the mount slightly and that fixed it.

One quirk: Rule 17 lighting does not work the same as my 2014 Big Boy; On gives you a constant low beam; Off gives you a constant high beam; in the On position on the Big Boy, when stopped, the beam goes to low; when moving, the beam switches to high.  No big deal; the sound and smoke make up for it.

The tape holding the fat black wire going from the bottom of the boiler to the front drive truck didn't hold; so I got some Loctite G02 general clear adhesive and used that to hold the wire to the bottom of the boiler; this stuff dries like silicone adhesive but a little harder; takes 24 hours to cure.

While working with the Challenger, it is noticeable that this loco is built strong; all the ginger bread is solid - railings, pipes, elephant ears, marker lights, etc.  The bell is fragile; you have to mind it when handling.  Well worth the dough.  Even the smoke units - they put out more smoke than my Big Boy - fills the room; have added 45 drops in increments of 10 to each unit - no blinking cab light yet; will stop till I see smoke declining. 

Another quirk of the 2010 Challenger: if you cut power to the loco instead of using the 'shutdown' button on the CAB2 remote, the loco forgets its address number and at next power on the track will not respond to the CAB2 remote; then, you have to go thru the address procedure to get it to answer to the CAB2 remote again; I usually never just cut power and have always gone thru the shutdown button on my other legacy  locos - maybe the same will happen to them.

Another thing about Loctite G02 glue; it adheres to smooth plastic surfaces with tenacity; however, not so much to the plastic insulation on wiring; but just enough to hold the wire in place.  It dries to a silicone consistency and remains soft - very serviceable.

After having this release of this engine for a week, I am really impressed; so far, everything works; slow speed is so smooooth; all fittings are rugged and well done; right up there with the 2014 Big Boy.

Glad it's worked properly longer than the 60 or so minutes that my new one did.......

RickM46 posted:

Another quirk of the 2010 Challenger: if you cut power to the loco instead of using the 'shutdown' button on the CAB2 remote, the loco forgets its address number and at next power on the track will not respond to the CAB2 remote; then, you have to go thru the address procedure to get it to answer to the CAB2 remote again; I usually never just cut power and have always gone thru the shutdown button on my other legacy  locos - maybe the same will happen to them.

FWIW, that should not happen.  The RCDR should retain the TMCC ID permanently.  Sounds like you need this part.

Thanks GRJ; will keep this in mind if it gets persistent.  Went up to the Lionel parts website and found it (see below) in the loco parts breakdown; don't know how common they are but will order it when the free shipping sale comes - forgot the time of year when Lionel does that.  Here is their part number:

Berkshire President posted:

Glad it's worked properly longer than the 60 or so minutes that my new one did.......

Berkshire, I read about the new Challenger's articulated sound issues and lashup issues; did you experience some others?

RickM46 posted:

Berkshire President posted:

Glad it's worked properly longer than the 60 or so minutes that my new one did.......

Berkshire, I read about the new Challenger's articulated sound issues and lashup issues; did you experience some others?

Yep.  Ran it for an hour on Day One and everything was great....other than the sounds and in sync drivers.  But I expected that.

Knowing it had to go back to NC, I wanted to see if everything else was working.  The dynamo smoke and blow down effect, after working gloriously on Day One, were completely gone on Day Two.

So, I've got my RA and we'll see what happens.  Katie was very pleasant.

That said, hits include excellent sound and smoke....at first any way.  Loco is very sharp looking and ran very well.  It's almost excellent.  Problem is, I paid for absolutely excellent.

Misses, other than the obvious:  the grey or silver lettering on the Tender and Cab Numbers do no match my first round legacy 844 and JLC Big Boy which have white lettering.  White lettering was cataloged, IIRC.  The dull grey on the smoke box and firebox appear to match the 3985 in recent photos....but I would prefer they match my other UP steamers and the first round VL UP Challengers.  I think that color is very sharp.  I don't think the misses are major....but at this price point, I expect more.

Am I upset?  Not yet.  If they make it right, I'll be cool.

Will I do BTO again?  Highly unlikely.

Do I regret this purchase?  Not yet.  If made right and it survives shipping, this can still be a nice model.

Berk, I have had good luck with Lionel service on 5 Legacy locomotives I sent in for repair under warranty; 4 were for smoke unit failures; 1 stopped dead and wouldn't run anymore - turned out to be a short.  All came back unblemished and fixed.  Now, having rebuilt the twin stack smoke unit on my Big Boy (immense help from the forum), I am dangerous and would not send back an engine for a failed smoke unit; would take a shot myself.