Lionel CW-80 Transformer Voltage Problem

Just for good measure make sure you have power from the transformer hooked up in at least three places spread out equally on the loop. 

The fan noise is enough to tell me to take it to a Lionel service center or at least call Lionel service. The intermittent power is a sign that the transformer has an internal short, probably caused by heat. I would guess the fan problem came first.

I would advise you to not use it any more.

If I were you I would buy a new ready to run set with a CW80 transformer and have a new train and track too. The sum cost of the parts included with the sets are much greater then the prices for the sets. Great way to build your empire.

For example here is a set $199.99 http://www.modeltrainstuff.com...et-p/lio-6-30188.htm

You could also check eBay or a hobby shop for a used one, but expect to pay about $50.

There are several sellers on eBay that buy ready to run sets and sell them piece by piece and you can find new CW80 transformers.

Watch out for Power Max or CW 40 transformers they may not be enough for your power needs or your Dad's may be getting weak, I can't say.

I wish you well.

"I have the Lionel CW-80 transformer from 2006" Isn't this the one that many converted into boat anchors?

I only have 1 CW80 from 2006, but I have 5 other CW80 transformers and they all are perfect, they do exactly what they are supposed to do for me any way. I had one bad one that came new with a set last year, but I cut off the cord and sent it to Lionel as they instructed and they sent me a new one.

Use your own judgement, however I would purchase a new transformer if this

was occurring on my little layout. 

 

The forum folks are giving you some sound advice.

Thanks for the tips I was saving for a better unit anyway but until then I will try running some wire from the transformer in 3 or 4 places. If later it still works I can use the transformer for scenery lights. Its a shame that I can pull out a little 45w transformer from 1965 and it still works perfect to bad Lionel doesn't make reliable product anymore.   

 

Forgive me for saying this, but I think that the above is a pretty harsh and sweeping statement.

 

My experience of Lionel products is that they are very well made and reliable. But even the best manufacturers have the occasional problem. Some early CW-80s were examples of this, but the problems were fixed, and current models are very reliable in general. I have several CW-80s, and they all work perfectly.

In most cases the problems have been caused by a faulty batch of components, which Lionel correct as soon as they are aware of the problem. An example of this is the smoke fan motors from a year or so ago. As soon as the problem was identified, a new supplier of motors was found, and the problem has ended. I had several locomotives with the bad fan motors, but these were all fixed with new motors, and I haven't had any such problems with locomotives released in the last year.

 

Anytime you add complexity to a product, you increase the likelihood of failure. Electronics, although it allows much more realism in our trains, increases the likelihood, type, and number of failures that were never experienced in our pre- and postwar trains. The CW-80 transformer is an example. When was the last time you heard of Lionel recalling an entire line of postwar transformers? The CW-80 failed because of electronics, including fan motors. Most electronics are reliable, but if you wanted to lower the failure rate, you would probably need to use military grade components, which, given the associated cost of such components, is not going to happen. Our non-electronic units had their own failure types, ie. e-units, but electronics multiplies the possible failures. Most hobbyists are not electronics educated, and are not aware that a simple derailment of their loco can smoke the electronics in it, rendering the loco possibly totally inoperative. A TVS can overcome this, but how many hobbyists or first time buyers know this? Are manufacturers suggesting installation of them in their literature? Are they being installed in their products to prevent catastrophic failure?

 

 More electronics will always raise the failure rate. It's not the manufacturers that are making the products unreliable, it's the electronics in them that cause it. Yes, Lionel identified a problem component and replaced it with a more reliable one, but the fact that there are electronics in it means that there is the possibility of a different type of failure at some point in the future. A brand new electronic ZW will always have the possibility of a much higher failure rate than the postwar version. We like the features electronics brings to us, so we will have to accept a higher failure rate. In the end, simplicity will result in lower failure rates, and complexity will raise it. Something to accept, and get used to.

 

Larry

No offense Nicole, but I've just put new fan motors in three different Legacy locomotives that just came back from Lionel service for the same issue, and the fan motor was still the problem.  While the production may be using the "fixed" motors, it seems the service department hasn't gotten the word, at least as of a couple months ago.  None of them have experienced any further issues with the MTH replacement motors.  From the volume of fan motor failures, they should have jumped on this issue before now.

 

 

I understand what all of you are saying. But it would be nice to see that made in usa again with the quality of the golden age of lionel, and I guess for me that is what I really miss about lionel today seeing that proudly stamped on every loco and train car. Again thanks for the tips and advice it has all been helpful and educational as well, anyway lets end this and go enjoy our model trains.  

Yesterdays trains (and other products, ie. clothing, electronics, etc.) were pretty much manufactured with quality as a priority and the price point secondary. Today, that is reversed, with the quality being what is attainable at a certain price.

 

It would be nice to see all products made in the USA again, but would we be able to afford them with the higher (union) wages here producing equivalent products that would cost maybe 1 1/2 times those made overseas? After all, it was the higher wages here that pushed manufacturing offshore in the first place, and the reason that Lionel tried manufacturing in Mexico. If manufacturers could keep wages low with non-union work, then manufacturing may come back here. If not, we can only dream about it.

 

Larry

None taken. 

Everyone blaming unions and "high wages" needs to realize that one can no longer survive on low wages in this country.  People made a living wage manufacturing things for many years...  Corporate greed took manufacturing offshore, not the wages paid to the workers.

Corporate greed may indeed play a part in moving manufacturing offshore, but union wages affected the decision also. When union employees get a contract wage increase, the cost of a product or service goes up. This affects everybody. When my local union worker transit agency gets a wage increase, the cost of riding the subway goes up. When the police, fire, and sanitation departments get union mandated increases, my taxes go up. I work for a manufacturing company, and am  not a union man, (I have been in the past at other jobs) and my wages do not go up to meet my increased costs. In my opinion, union wages were one of the influencing factors of moving manufacturing offshore, and if it is to come back, they will have to be non-union, or the unions will have to be reigned in to keep final costs down and make their products affordable. Addressing corporate greed is another story...

 

Larry

Meanwhile back to the original question.....

 

Benjamin,

 

As Bruette said, contact Lionel support.  They will probably just replace it for you.

 

Ed

So you don't mind falling further behind in your wages every year and not keeping up with the costs of things or even possibly trying to get ahead and you think is should be that way for everyone?  That's amazing.

 

Maybe if we addressed the corporate greed first, there would be enough for us all to make a living wage and get a small increase in wages once in a while so we could purchase a new locomotive or some rolling stock once in a while.

 

mlavender480, thanks for posting, I agree. The people doing all the work and making all the money for these corporations should be getting some of the benefits.

 

Edit: Apologies to the original poster for drifting here, that's all for me on this one.

Like stated above, how many drops do you have?  Also, is it speeding up and slowing down in the same places?  If so, it's lack of power to the track and more drops are needed.  If it happens at different places, then it's a bad transformer.  I have 4 CW-80s of varying vintage, and they have all been good thus far.  I have several carpet loops, and the locomotives always go slower on the far side of the loop from the transformer.  I have one mounted loop and it has power drops in each quadrant and on each spur and the locomotives remain constant throughout. 

I would not be too worried about the fan noise: all of my three CW-80s wore their fan bearings to the point that they groan/make noise for the first few minutes after starting.  Two settle down after 10 minutes or so and behave and quiet down and i still use them: the one that didn't I just pitched.  

 

You did not specifically say if or how you were actually measuring the voltage and what the variation in readings is, or how much it varies.  did you actually measure voltage, or is the only evidence you have the fact that the loco is slowing down and speeding up?  Regardless, there are two possibilities you should consider first:

- It could be the locomotive.  If your loco is giving problems - gears binding, motor going weak, whatever, it could be the problem not the transformer , momentarily slowing or speeding up, etc. 

- If the voltage measured at the track is actually varying a lot when you don't touch the CW-80 throttle, it could be you have a poor connection(s) that are getting warm over time and momentarily opening.

 

but, assuming you eliminate those, and that you are measuring voltage at the CW-80 terminals and the voltage is going up and down despite the throttle being left in one position, the unit is bad.  You could have it repaired, but that might cost a good portion of what a new one would, and according to you it is already 8 years old.

Well I am back up an running again. I cleaned that old 60's 45w transformer from my dads youth and it works like a champ. And I no longer have voltage drops so it was not the track or locomotive. So the cw-80 was going bad I will not replace this with another one. I think I will get a ZW from the 50's or 60's. Good idea or not let me know about your experiences with the old ZW's.

Did you ever contact Lionel about the CW80? The new CW80s are smooth, solid, reliable power supplies and from my experience Lionel stands behind them. I love the CW80 I can't have too many of them because I can always use additional power for accessories and buildings that I might add in the future. I love them for many reasons not the least of which is the 2 separately adjustable outputs. When I got my ZW-L I did not discard my CW80s.

As for the old ZWs, they are hard to beat for running many of the conventional locomotives. For me they don't have sufficient overload protection for modern electronics like RailSounds, TMCC or Legacy. You can add over load protection to your track circuit, but then you are closing in on the cost of a ZW-L. For operators that already have a ZW replacing it a rebuilt one is great. For those of us who never had one, why bother with yesterdays technology for todays high tech trains. That is just my opinion.

Think of your possible long term power needs before deciding which way to go and call Lionel about your defective CW80. I can't say what they will do for you but it can't hurt to find out.

Glad to hear you are back to running your trains, I wish you well.

A post war ZW should serve your purposes nicely. If you get newer electronic equipped locomotives or rolling stock, add some external fast acting circuit breakers and Transient Voltage Suppressors to protect them.

 

Larry

I always shied away from the CW80 based on the stories here, this year I used it for a window layout. It ran 4 hours a day (30 minute intervals) for a full month  in a window that was subject to 10 degree nights, without fail. I really can't say anything bad about it

I have three and they seem to get noisy with age, but none have failed and I run them a couple of hours every day.

To Bruette I contacted Lionel today and they told me to just buy a new one. No suprise there as it is long out of warranty. But that is fine I am starting a savings fund for something better I do like the legacy system Lionel has but MTH and MRC have good choices to. Until then I will continue reasearch on the new and old transformers.

I would love to see a picture of your Christmas window layout!

When I was a kid growing up in Baltimore there were several Lionel trains running in the windows at Christmas time in the "nice neighborhood" where I delivered news papers. My Mom could not afford a Lionel set but she did buy me a Tyco set and I loved it, but I would always look at those Lionel trains and wish.

You tried, nothing to lose by asking.

I am sure there are many people running ZWs with Legacy and many will be glad to tell you exactly what else you will need.

You are a smart man Benjamin, you are exactly right, research will be the key to your good choices. Sounds to me like you know how to run a railroad!

I am glad you are up and running again, enjoy your trains!

 

 

Do they make after market replacement fans for the CW80?

Mine have yet to make any noise, but I don't have as many service hours on mine as others do. I am not concerned if it makes noise but should it completely fail I would hate to lose one because of a fan

When the one I got new was defective Lionel told me there are no serviceable parts in the CW80 and sent me a replacement. That surprised me because the nature of fans is that sooner or later they will fail. Until God starts making inexpensive bearings this will be the case.

Although I haven't replaced a fan yet, when I had a CW-80 open I noticed that the fan appeared to be very similar to those found inside many computers or other electronic devices. It is most likely a generic cooling fan.

You could probably find a replacement fan at any local computer store. 

Just remove the old one and find a match that is the same size with the same bolt hole spacing. 

 

Thank you N.Q.D.Y. and Flash,

I had not opened one up yet, but its good to know!

I should have thought Lionel would be smart enough to use a part that is already available rather then designing something special.

Thank you again!

I should add that if you replace the Lionel CW80 fan with a generic fan be sure to measure the voltage supplied from the transformer to the fan. Most fans used in electronics such as computers run on 12volts DC.

This will work: you can find small fans like that at Radio Shack and they will fit.  I switched one out years ago but the unit died due to other causes within a couple of years.    However, a simpler fix is, I just turn my three on about ten minutes before I want to go back int he trainroom.  One is quiet as a mouse, but two of them - each with I'd guess around 5,000 hours on them - have fans that make horrific - really load and annoying - groans when they start up.  But within a few minutes the loose bearings or whatever heat up or something and they quiet down, and the trainroom is not just tolerable but fairly quiet - at least 'til I get everything moving. 

Thank you Lee!

 

5000 Hours of service tells me I have nothing to worry about for a long time.

I am with you if the noise goes away then its nothing to be concerned with. Just be sure your smoke detector is working for those 10 minutes you walk away. I have seen some of your pictures from your train room its truly inspiring!

While I am writing to you I want to thank you for all your informative and knowledgeable posts. They are one of the many reasons I signed up for this forum.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience! 

The fan on my cw80 finally quit.

The transformer still works but I no longer push it to the limit like I used to.

 

I've thought about cutting a hole in the side of the case and bolting on one of these fans. I'm sure it would flow enough air to keep it cool

 

Let me know how that bolt on fan works out for you MacGyver, pardon me, Flash.

But seriously, it seems like you are going to be the one to find out which replacement to use.

The rating of the fan will be significant, it's a 12VDC fan.   They come in all sizes for computer cooling, so finding a suitable replacement can't be a big deal.

 

Mouser electronics has any computer fan you can imagine.

 

The CW80 uses a standard "muffin" type fan. Just measure it up and look at the specs on the sticker, then shop for one that's similar.

 

I could use another CW80 for my layout. Where are you finding them cheap enough that you can just throw them away when they go bad?

I am content now knowing it is a 12volt DC fan, no problem picking them up almost any where that sells electronics.

Thank you gunrunnerjohn and while I am at it just like I said to Lee, thank you for all your informative and knowledgeable posts. They are one of the many reasons I signed up for this forum.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience! 

Benjamin,

   The CW-80 is just a beginner type transformer, I recommend getting rid of it, the ZW you are interested in will definitely work well for darn near ever, a good Lionel KW is also another quality transformer I have been using for many years with my layouts.  The Z-1000 and the Z-4000 are also quality transformers.  I always over power my layotus so I can expand any time I want too.  I do not even power my street cars or old fire car with the CW-80 any more, if you can afford to upgrade do it as soon as possible.

PCRR/Dave 

 

Remember when using an ZW or KW type transformers with the DCS to use 10 Amp breakers also.

 

I have 3 CW 80s. I had one go bad and replaced for free from Lionel.  Now that I have migrated to DCS my 3 CW 80s are used for other layout needs.  I have 2 ZWs.  If you have a CW 80 and are running conventionally, have fun and dont get caught up in all the jabber about these transformers.