Lionel DieCast Diesels

Sorry but plastic body diesels locomotives in the $550-650 range no way I'm paying $1000+ for diecast.  Only way I would pay for diecast diesels is if they were around the $875 MSRP of the one and only run Lionel did.  

MLAT posted:

Sorry but plastic body diesels locomotives in the $550-650 range no way I'm paying $1000+ for diecast.  Only way I would pay for diecast diesels is if they were around the $875 MSRP of the one and only run Lionel did.  

Diecast are $850 opposed to $650 and have way cooler features as well/ they also last longer and are easier to maintain

Does anyone know the production cost differential between plastic and die cast diesel bodies?

Doesn't $500 for a Legacy diesel unit seem close to the limit of reasonable?

Yea, I just want them to make a few or even one a year for the number of us who want higher quality locomotives. 

More die-cast diesels would be nice but I guess the molds are pricey to create...  so their end price is higher.    I'm not sure how many die-casts diesels there (legacy) either... 

Yea, I hope that Lionel makes more in the future, we can try our best to let them know, but we'll have to hope!

I know some or many or all of the genset switchers are diecast... for example,

Union Pacific LEGACY 3GS21B Genset Switcher #2701  (6-28314)

But there's no obvious way that I can tell to search for "diesel die-cast" on the lionel website.

How expensive do you want this stuff to be?  It's bad enough a lot of it is out of the price range of most hobbyists, now you want all die cast diesels that will likely cost a thousand bucks?  More money than brains...

Well, let's see, every die cast diesel Lionel has must thus far has been nothing short of a home run and those were pretty speedy from go so you talk about being priced out but the reality is the font price out, they sell out 

All I know is that half of you will never buy die cast diesels and then the other half of us will order the Dorcas to diesels when a new one comes out. The reality is the preference. I prefer quality or quantity and get more enjoyment from a more detailed model

Alex Trains posted:

MLAT posted:

Sorry but plastic body diesels locomotives in the $550-650 range no way I'm paying $1000+ for diecast.  Only way I would pay for diecast diesels is if they were around the $875 MSRP of the one and only run Lionel did.  

Diecast are $850 opposed to $650 and have way cooler features as well/ they also last longer and are easier to maintain

That was my point.  No way would the price be $875 for a diecast engine.  I would bet price would be $1100+ easy....

If they remade the evo today it be 1200 bucks just like the gg1 was....While i will give you the evo cp rail and the union pacific and bnsf and kc where great engines they sure had there issiues ...

I would love to see a re-introduction of Lionel's die-cast diesels!  Lionel's ES44's from circa 2010 - 2011 (despite a few quirks (extremely fragile handrails/locking of truck gears if not run) were some of the finest O gauge engines ever made.  It does seem the current market for them has softened up a bit, you have quite a few GEVO's on that "site" for $1600, without one bid (and for quite a few weeks).  A few years ago, getting one for that price was considered "a good deal."  

I do agree with MLAT, that given Lionel's recent pushing of the proverbial envelope when it comes to pricing, MSRP would be well north of $1K.  From my perspective, however, (and I stress my perspective), I wouldn't mind paying the premium.  There is just something about the feel of a die-cast locomotive, it feels almost "real" given the incredible weight and detailing precision. 

Would love to see the following made in all-die-cast:

• Tier 4 ES44s
• SD70ACEs
• Vision Line Union Pacific GTEL Big Blow Turbine
• SD40s

Maybe one day....

Michael

The potential price of a new run of die-cast diesels wouldn't seem to be too much of a roadblock, considering the MSRP for Legacy Big Boys and Alleghenys, both of which seem to have a healthy market.

I have several metal (mostly brass) steam locomotives and love them.  The accuracy and detail is the reason why.

However, there is zero chance that I'm going to spend $1,000 on a single diecast (or brass) diesel locomotive.  If I can get a well detailed, accurate, pair of powered diesels for $1,200 then this is where my money is going.

Plastic bodied diesels are just as detailed as diecast ones would be.  I also don't understand the comment that metal bodies would be easier to maintain, why is this so?

Would additional Lionel diecast diesels sell?  Don't know, only the marketing folks at Lionel could determine this.  Perhaps they would fly off the shelves as Vision units.

Jim

F30MSport posted:

Lionel's ES44's from circa 2010 - 2011 (despite a few quirks (extremely fragile handrails/locking of truck gears if not run) were some of the finest O gauge engines ever made.  

 

 

I dunno, those "quirks" seem to be a lack of quality, particularly gears locking up.  Fragile handrails indicates a quality issue occurring at the design level.

Would they be considered quirks or a lack of quality on a plastic diesel?

Rusty

The big bonus of die cast diesels is the weight,  you don't need rubber tires.

Me thinks Lionel pretty much understands the upper limits folks are willing to spend on any given item. Given ABS diesels cost less to produce then metal die-cast, there was more room to move MSRP upward with ABS without serious rejection of the product..  Originally the diecast Es44's had a MSRP over $1k and folks balked. They then lowered the MSRP to a barely acceptable level with rebates, which then cut profit margins but then had no room to move MSRP upward with time ...

Joe

The Baldwin Centipedes kinda laid a Goose egg. Not every die-cast diesel is a winner.

Count me "in"!  I much prefer the prototypical method of improving adhesion - weight - to the ridiculous alternative of rubber tires.  Where possible, I replace all rubber tired wheel-axle sets.  If your wheels slip, you need to increase horsepower, go back to train handling school or both.

I have a Lionel H-12-44 in CNW, it's a work of art and well worth the money.  Further, I look forward to adding an MTH diecast GE 44 tonner in B&O, when they're issued later this year.  I would be in the market for others, should they be offered.

I would love a highly detailed die cast diesel Under $1000. AIN'T happening. 

Plastic can be more highly detailed, the die cast frame gives it more than sufficient weight, and Lionel can offer it with a street price under $700. To me, that's a no brainer. I could buy three diesels for under $2100 or maybe two diesels for $2000. Is there really a choice?

Scrapppy

JC642 posted:

Me thinks Lionel pretty much understands the upper limits folks are willing to spend on any given item. ... 

I think you're giving them more the benefit of doubt on this one than they really deserve.  My feeling is Lionel leads the way to pushing the price envelope until it hurts -- especially for steam.  Haven't we all noticed that Lionel has quietly -- but very systematically -- pushed the price point of basic Northern-style locomotives to where the company's articulated Y6b-type locomotive pricing resided only a couple of years ago?

At the end of 2016, Legacy Station had a 20% discount on all their O-scale locomotives.  That brought the price of a $1700 MSRP Lionel GS-4 or T-1 down to $1360.  Now compare that to MTH's $1650 MSRP Great Northern Z-6 Challenger freight set that came with 5 scale boxcars and caboose for $1320 on sale.  Which scenario represents the better value?

Enthusiasts are still lining up to buy Lionel's latest T-1, but I'm sure they'd rather pay $1,000 for it instead of $1,500 -- especially if they bought a Y6b a couple of years ago for $1350.

The same points can be made regarding diesel and electrics too.

David 

Just my opinion but, there is NO WAY that I would be interested in die cast, or even brass, diesel locomotive models! Why? For one, they are, would be, much to expensive with properly modeled prototypical details, especially "road specific" details. I much prefer there method the Sunset/3rd Rail has taken with their recent  exquisite diesel models, i.e. the current EMD SD7/SD9 models. They have ABS/plastic bodies with metal (brass) underframes AND single can motor horizontal drive, for fantastic slow speed performance. They are under $700 too.

Make 'em!  Then someone on the forum can start a thread complaining about how much it cost to ship diecast versus plastic diesels.

What, me worry?

The new MTH 44 tonner is diecast, isn't it?  Just buy that one, still less than $500.  Very nice engine too, and great sounds, IMO.  I may get one of those myself and then a couple of other engines that my LHS has been dangling in front of me for a while now and I will have way more than I need. That will probably be it for me unless I sell something first from now on.  I am out of both layout and storage space and the layout needs an addition, also a big wallet drainer (and I think my wife bought a new hard maple rolling pin, I may need a stronger helmet?).

I agree with the others that any new Lionel diecast diesels will be much more than the 2010 prices of $850.  I think more like $1200 like some of the others have stated above. Look how much the plastic ones have increased since 2010.  That is just way more than I am willing to spend on a single train item.

I just think that they should make a few each year for us who would buy them in a heart beat

Kinda just add them in and if you don't want them don't buy them, they will always make plastic unless metal becomes much cheaper

Even if they catalog diecast diesels, they won't make them unless they meet their quota of pre-orders needed. 

This thread has me believing Lionel should offer a single different diesel every year in die cast, even at a ridiculous cost above plastic. There seems to be a market for die cast, though, considering the diesel's weight with plastic body is already significant, it appears to offer no visual difference.

Understanding that pulling power might be the rational, I recall my college days at NC State University where the railroad went right down the middle of the campus. Classroom buildings were on one side of the railroad tracks and the dorms were on the other side. My dorm had direct line of sight to the tracks. Often I would gaze out the window and count the cars. Typically there were just below or just above 100 in number. The year was 1966 and '67 when I stayed in that dorm. Those trains always had 4 or 5 diesels pulling them. Prototypically, it takes more engines to pull more cars. How many cars can a single plastic body Lionel or MTH diesel pull? Want to pull more cars? MU another diesel.

Exactly just make a few different diecast diesels each year and those would be the diesels I would buy first. I'm only 13 and don't make money I just have a certain budget around $2000 each year. With that I would buy 1 steam and 1 diecast diesel. Or I would buy just 1 steam or 2 diecast diesels. The truth is they can do it and have done it. They would still make a profit, probably very close to what they make off the plastic diesels 

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

JC642 posted:

Me thinks Lionel pretty much understands the upper limits folks are willing to spend on any given item. ... 

I think you're giving them more the benefit of doubt on this one than they really deserve.  

David 

 

Not really.    I think they learned from experience with the die-cast ES44's that unrealistically high pricing limits sales and creates negative feedback.  They simply found they can make higher profit margins by selling far more units at a cheaper price with ABS ES44's plus have room to raise MSRP over the long haul.  BTW, my favorite diesel is the BNSF die-cast ES44.  What a brute!!!

Joe    

Alex, the bottom line, however, is that Lionel (nor the other manufacturers/importers) will make an item like this UNLESS they foresee that they can sell enough of the models to make a profit.  With most diesels having already been made in plastic, and the flexibility of molding in plastic, I would be skeptical that there is enough potential buyers to justify the cost.  However, Lionel, will (and does) their on market analysis.  On the other hand, perhaps a metal Vision version of a diesel would be profitable?

Jim

Um - all the arguments above - pro and con - can be made for steamers.

My guess is that steamers are die cast because of tradition.  Electrics seem to follow that tradition, but Diesels started out plastic, and plastic they will remain.

I personally do not care for plastic models, but have no rationale for that.  Plastic can indeed make a better detailed model cheaper, and that includes steam.

How many Lionel folks would rather have a plastic shell 700E?

These are well under $400 currently.  Not exactly "scale" but nicely done and weigh a ton. https://www.train-station.com/...ry/023922188472.html

I would rather have a plastic shell tender for my die-cast steam, again its a weight thing. How did we get to die cast tenders ? On diesels my preference would be at the least, body shell plastic everything below that die cast, including frame. Prefer die cast body if no room for extra weight . On steam full die cast engine and die cast tender frame, plastic tender body.

Clem 

Prefer die cast. I like the heft, substantial "feel", and durability. If one is going to spend a lot on a diesel - plastic or die cast - one might as well obtain the added quality. It is a case of preferring to buy fewer, but better. MHO. 

Bob

Aside from tradition, many steam engines (aside from Lionel and MTH) have been made from brass, as smaller production runs are possible as dies do not have to be manufactured.

Jim

Bob Bubeck posted:

Prefer die cast. I like the heft, substantial "feel", and durability. If one is going to spend a lot on a diesel - plastic or die cast - one might as well obtain the added quality. It is a case of preferring to buy fewer, but better. MHO. 

Bob

Me too, I love buying an engine and have faith that it is durable and high quality. With plastic diesels I don't get that same feeling.

The whole thing about expensive (or even cheap) steamers must be die-cast (or brass) metal, yet a $700 diesel set is OK with plastic bodies has always been amusing to me. It's irrational (as if the whole hobby isn't).

And, as a true scratch-basher of steam locos, the number of times I have muttered "why can't they make these ^&%$# things out of plastic so I can cut them up easier?!" is a big number. (Somehow the big MTH #1 Scale steamers are OK from plastic? My gorgeous MTH #1 Scale NYC J3a on the shelf is plastic...now, explain that!)

But, personally and esthetically, I wish that every piece of rolling stock and every locomotive I touched was die cast, or formed of sheet brass or sheet steel, or extruded aluminum. No good reason, and plastics make so many things possible in this and all other fields of endeavor. I just like the coolness (both kinds).

My die-cast Lionel Veranda Turbine and my die-cast Lionel Centipede - they have that little extra that the MTH versions do not. I have one of the plastic WBB 44-tonners, but I believe that I'm going to buy one of the MTH die-cast ones, just because.

(Imagine a new Vision Line rendition of the Lionel die-cast Veranda with upgraded truck detailing, upgraded sound, upgraded exhaust smoke...even I might be tempted...)