Lionel - Don't Forget the Average Joe !

Funny, but I was thinking the same thing today. I bought a BB, but only because I sold a lot of "N" and "HO" items I had. I would never be able to afford one otherwise, nor again.

What Lionel is doing if these high priced items are the only thing coming in future years, will be less and less that will attempt to enter the hobby. Also agree that many don't have the room for mammoth sized layouts, one part that Lionel is missing in offering better detailed smaller engines, and why I would love to see General type Civil War engines to make smaller layouts look bigger. There is a niche in modelers and collectors thgat would purchase and start a layout with possible engines and cars that would make small layout look larger with lots of detail. Also open new avenues to produce and have a market for figures and sceneray not touched.

The K-line Berks were full 1:48 models. not "semi-scale". I have a couple, and you are right, they were beautiful. I was actually messing with one of mine this afternoon.

I do not recall the Berk curvature specs (031 seems a bit small), but K-line did produce

some excellent 1:58 Pacifics and Mikados that were well-detailed that probably could

take 031 trackage.

I have 072 so I don't note the minimum radius spec so much, as 072 seems to be the default "take anything" diameter. But the K-line Berks were full-size.

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I do agree with the idea of a more basic model at a more basic price. There are available

on the used/auction market well-made and well-proportioned brass (Wms/Samhongsa)

steamers at very good prices. I like them.

MTH wants you Nice looking, big steam that negotiates small curves. You can't have all the detail, without the larger curves and prices. Starter set locos work with everything. 

But to stick with your point, it's the varied control systems and high cost, if I want speed control that keeps me from trying a Lionel with TMCC and adding that type of control to my DCS. I don't want a $2000 toy. I want a $300 toy.

I've been saying this for years. it isn't something that just happened. I'm basically either buy a cheap set the most I have spent on a whole set was like $600. and that was about 2 years ago. I like the Big steams but don't have the cash flow to even think about it or see the sense in it in my income level. 

Personally I feel all of them Lionel,MTH, Weaver, Bachmann are all pricing them selves out of business. when Bachmann conventional engine is more than a lionel conventional engine even if your buying from trainworld or charlie ro there is something wrong with this picture. Thats why when I buy something I look for used and with ebay's new policy's its a no lose situation to the buyer. not as describe you get everything back including shipping both ways. 

Check out he used market.  There are a lot of really nice engines as well as rolling stock at unbelievable prices on the used market now.  Engines that five to seven years ago sold for $1600 can be found in the $500 to $700 range.  I recently sold a wonderful Lionel scale 0-8-0 with TMCC and rail sounds five which listed for about $800 for $375.  It was vey well detailed and a great runner.

Not everyone can afford to get a new car but there are some really nice cars available on the used market.

Happy railroading,

Don

I checked a few K Line Berkshire Listings on E-bay. They state they can negotiate 031 curves. And rest assured gang, I have  been watching Ebay quite a lot lately. That's where I got my Rock Island E-6's. (Which by the way are gorgeous locomotives.) And yes they look goofy as heck on 036... But yanno, they are my kind of goofy.

I know I am going to give up some in detail....but.... there are some gaps in the market right now, and I for one would like to be able to purchase semething for my layout that doesn't drain the wallet (at least completely.)

rtraincollector... you are so right about the pricing. I have a set of Williams Alco FA's and they look gorgeous. But, I really believe there is some room for improvement.

Hello Average Joe

      This is an excellent post, In fact it is a Railroad Magazine Quality Article. My suggestion, add several photos and e-mail it to Allan Miller, Editor-in-Chief. He may want to use this topic.

I agree with Don here. There are many great buys in the used market. I can't afford the big prices that are being asked today but I still can play in the scale game. 

I have bought F3's over the past months of some of the ones I always wanted but could not afford. The new legacy units  are great but not in my price range. So I looked for some of the best F units from the 2003-2005 era. Great sound, great detail at 50% of the newer items. I'm very happy doing what I have to do to have fun in this hobby. 

In survey after survey, the most common size "0" gauge layout is 4'x8'. It's a bit difficult to run 072 curves on that.

Just my own observation, but it seems that there are a lot of problems with the computer boards in those high-end locos. Of course, the same might be said for the low-end too. Where's the quality control?

And speaking of the lower-end starter sets or the modern "conventional" locos, I've watched those prices leap upwards and out of reach of many of us. I realise that cost for dies and stamps are high, but how long does it take to pay-off the initial investment - surely not a decade or more?

More and more I've come to prefer the Postwar trains I grew up with in the 50's and 60's, along with their MPC counterparts. I thank MTH for the Railking line that gave me an affordable Mallet in the 90's, and Williams for reproductions of engines that I couldn't have owned otherwise, but "Hey People !": don't forget who put you where you are today.

Just my 2 cents. And yes, I DO know how expensive trains were when I was a kid - but I still managed to buy some with money I'd saved over the year.

With all due respect Greenrail you can get MTH railking big loco's that can handle smaller curves. I believe Kline in the past had the same.

I realize that Railking is an option. No issue there. However, I also like to have a better selection of better detailed locomotives. The other side of the coin gets into the additional expense of having to own two separate and high cost Digital systems to control my layout. With all the features each manufacturer offers, that becomes another concern for someone like me.

Like I said in my original post, I threw this out  there to generate discussion. With the skyrocketing prices of new trains I am becoming more and more relegated to the "Used" market. Which isn't all bad. But I sure would like to go to a Train Show or Local Hobby shop and have the option of purchasing something that fits my tastes and will run on my layout.

A tangential effect here is the pricing  out of the younger generation in the market. That surely will have a long term effect on the hobby as a whole. Sure the low end sets are entry level targeted. But, when one looks at the higher end  and mid-range and you find that the Digital system of something like LionChief and LionChief+ aren't compatible with Legacy or TMCC, its kind of frustrating. I for one do not want to have six or seven unique and incompatible remotes to operate my layout.

I Personally think Lionel missed the boat by limiting the LionChief/LionChief+ system to its own and not making it upwardly compatible with Legacy or TMCC.

MTH Railking items are still priced fairly competitively.  My local dealer had an Atlantic Coast Line SW9 that I liked alot that was reasonably priced for a sound and command equipped locomotive.  I still think Lionel missed the boat by killing off the Lion Master line.  The Lionchief stuff is nice for beginners but it is unfortunate it is not compatible with TMCC or Legacy.  Also Lionel is missing out on doing modern near scale diesels like the SD70Ace and the ES44AC MTH offers. Also looking at second hand items can be a good idea too because their alot available on eBay.  

A Traditional Sized Locomotive is what Lionel should have done with modern locomotives such as the SD50/SD60 in the first place. Something that is exactly in proportion to the Traditional O Gauge freight cars that are 1/64th scale length and height, but wider for O Gauge track and that sit on trucks that are about O Scale.

The extreme height of the 1990's SD50/SD60/SD60M and the DASH 8/DASH 9 locomotive models made them look strange with the not very tall traditional O gauge freight cars. They need to try again with miniature modern electronics, LED lighting, and electrical contacts.

Andrew

As mentioned before, Lionel had this area covered to a fair degree with its "Lionmaster" series of well-proportioned locomotives designed to navigate 036 track. I guess sales didn't measure up leading to the discontinuation of the series. I, for one, would like to see it brought back, at least on an occasional basis.

Sales wasn't the problem, it was that according to Lionel they were pretty much just as expensive to produce, yet selling for less than, the full scale versions.  That, and the realization that they would in all likelihood price those products out of the intended market if the pricing was more in line with the scale versions they determined they weren't turning enough profit to be able to sustain it.

There's also the Railking Imperial line, which is MTH's equivalent to Lionel's LionMaster Line with detailing that approaches Premier level but still at a more traditionally-sized package.

I agree. I'd love to have a Lionel ES44AC (or two) but all of my curves are O48, and am worried that the engine wouldn't negotiate it. I currently don't have a layout built but I'm not sure I want to sacrifice the extra space for larger curves. That's one reason I really liked the SD70ACe's, and the rotating outer axles on each truck that allowed them to go through O36. I'm not sure why something similar can't be incorporated into the ES44's. Doesn't MTH list their minimum curve for theirs as O42? What's the difference? Maybe it has something to do with the semi-attached pilots on the Lionel version.

Lionmaster did not make sense because they only produced the SD80MAC/SD90MAC for the EMD diesel-electric locomotives. The SD50/SD60/SD60M was not produced in the Lionmaster line. The GE C40-8/C40-8W was not made in the Lionmaster line. There was not a similar proportioned, extra-long General Electric and ALCo Century Series diesel-electric locomotive produced.

Andrew

Falcon Service

Greenrail, "The other side of the coin gets into the additional expense of having to own two separate and high cost Digital systems to control my layout. With all the features each manufacturer offers, that becomes another concern for someone like me".

Why, Just use one system dcs to run both. On a different tangent, it would be great if Lionel and MTH embraced DCC. DCC is simple and much cheaper, $10-20 dollars per decoder for O scale all be it no sound. 

It seems to me (my opinion) that Lionel is only concerned about the bottom line. If you can't afford it or have the space to run it.......oh well!! Why would a company come out with several different versions of command systems to run their engines?? Why would you want a remote control for EVERY engine?? That's one of the thing that I like about MTH. Every engine that MTH sells has DCS installed in the engine, You can choose which version of DCS system you want to use. Are you listening Lionel???

The Lionmaster Challenger steam locomotives are the most nicely detailed semi scale locomotives in my fleet and look sharper than any Rail King steam locomotives I own.  They have great pulling strength and do not have overhang on O72 curves, unlike their scale brothers that are just a few inches longer.

You're right about the cost of trains in O scale. I waited a long time to move out of HO because of how much the new stuff costs. You can get older hand made HO brass locos for the cost of the Lionchief and Railking steam locos. And, those HO locos were hand made, and highly detailed.

After studying the problem, I lit on postwar O27 by Lionel. The track is cheap and plentiful, and I can actually fix (most of the time) the locos if they have a problem. Admittedly the paint, markings and details are not quite as sophisticated as the new stuff, but if I really wanted scale, I wouldn't be doing 3 rail to begin with. Most of the stuff (90%) I own is well under $100 and I don't have to worry about a purchase fracturing the budget.

Model railroading in general, could easily become a rich man's hobby. Remember the economists are all saying the middle class has been going down hill economically for the last 40 years...do the math.

This is why I run postwar/postwar style conventional on o-gauge tubular track.  I can fix it if needed, and in the same respect, i can buy a broken piece cheap and get it running like new.  Out of the few engines I got new (2 were KCC specials and one k-line I won at my LHS) I've had problems I have been living with because I can't figure out how the thing works (and not to toot my own horn, but I have a BS in Aerospace Engineering).

These prices do dishearten me.  I made some similar thoughts known on the "I miss K-line" post a couple weeks back, but it's true.  I also liked how they had the different prices for different versions.  I just purchased my first Williams set (second hand from a forum member), so that may open up a new market to me, but I almost don't want to bother thumbing through the Lionel catalouges when they come in because I know I can't afford the new stuff and the cheap stuff isn't worth buying new.  For the forseeable future i'll keep thumbing trough my old k-line catalouges and keep my eye out for that stuff on ebay.

The way I see it Lionel, MTH and Atlas are not positioning themselves for the "average Joe" hobbyist. They offer engines in the $500-$2,000 range for the "deep pocket" enthusiast and some cheap low quality entry level sets for young children. Their premium lines are increasingly being made for wide radius track and that shuts out many people with the older layouts with 031 curves.

The good news is that there are suppliers going after the traditionalist operator. Bachman Williams, RMT and Menards offer equipment designed and priced for the "average Joe".  Most of their stuff also operates on 027 and 031 curves and the quality is there. As long as you are not fixated on the big L brand; whatever, your budget and needs may be, there is a supplier who can fill them.

Good points Dennis. I do agree with the affordability aspect. I do see Bachmann entering the digital command control O 3 rail arena, its just a matter of time. I have other scales and Bachmann has DCC/Sound in almost everything in the Spectrum line.

Let's not forget that it's 2015.  An engine that cost $1000 in 2015 was a $137 item in 1965.  Inflation takes it's toll over time, and printing money indiscriminately has its consequences.  "Value" and "Worth" are intrinsic things - we define them on our own terms based on our own experiences.   Trains cost a lot in 1965, and they cost a lot today.  We notice it more because inflation (again, caused by many things) has really outpaced earnings over the last decade or more;  the average Joe had more purchasing power in 1965 - his money went further.  It's hard on the manufacturers as well - they need to decide what market they are going to ultimately serve.  Margins are tough at the bottom of the market, and competition is fierce - it's hard to make money down there unless you mass produce, and it's hard to make a high quality product that way - you end up with a "me too" and everything winds up coming down to price and volume.  As you move up market, you get more "wiggle room" and more opportunity to differentiate.  You can break this all down in models, which is likely something someone at Lionel has actually done.  Based on inputs such as labor cost, material costs, shipping costs, market size, etc., someone made a decision that where they are now is where they need to be in terms of price and product.  They could be wrong too - markets get over/underestimated, fixed costs rise, variable costs rise, and you wind up with a business strategy that is based on a faulty model.  That stuff happens all the time, often with epic consequences (think Blackberry, Atari, or Radio Shack...).  I guess what I'm saying is that if Lionel decided to focus more on the upper end of the market, something/someone did the math and told them that's where they could make the most money.  If that prices some people out of the market, so be it.  Make no mistake:  no business is a charity. They don't exist to make you feel good, they exist to make money.  If they make you feel good along the way, that's an added bonus, but the bottom line is what it is.  It's harder when the product you sell is something that people are passionate about - it's easy to hate the cable company, but it's hard to hate an American icon like Lionel.  Further complicating things is that the model train market is almost 100% dependent on discretionary spending.  Related to purchasing power, model trains and other hobby products are always the first to suffer when inflation rears its ugly head.  Everyone laments the advent of electronics and video games as the new distraction/toy/hobby of choice, but the reality is that, generally,  they are dirt cheap to mass produce, and the margins are either crazy good or the volume is insane, and sometimes they are both for a (short) period of time.  They are one of the few products that have remained somewhat aligned with purchasing power - I can buy as much/more tech today for the same money that I could 10-15 years ago.  This makes it seem like more of a "bargain" compared to other products, when in reality it probably has more to do with the mind boggling pace of technology evolution.  

This macro economic lesson was brought to you by 'thestumper' who balled up and threw away 5 years of economics study and a degree in favor of a Masters in Engineering and a completely unrelated career 

Small apples and large oranges.  Don't forget, that $137.00 locomotive from 1965 didn't have all the add-on detail or electronic technology inside the today's $1000.00 locomotive has.

Rusty

I think people here are making some fair points but may be unfair to some degree. 

Williams still makes plenty of steam locomotives, that are "traditionally" sized, that sell for reasonable prices.  They also have the new Atlantics.  Very nice stuff, don't need to be Warren Buffett to afford.

MTH has the Railking and Railking Imperial lines, as you all know.  We have articulated steam engines that cost $600 or so.  This is about what my parents paid for a high end steam loco, probably less, such as a 783 Hudson in the 1980s.

Lionel has Lionchief+, which is definitely a mid-range product.  They also have plenty of steamers that will negotiate O36/042 that are Legacy and sell for $600 or less actual retail.  Sure they also have the high end stuff as well.

I would agree that there are quality issues in the hobby right now.  I think that Lionel, MTH, and probably Williams are aware of it, but to some degree it may be out of their control so all they can do is honor the warranty and try to make it right.

Having dealt with all three firms, my sense is that the people are decent and try to do the right thing.  I don't think that excuses the quality gaffes.  I think it makes the resolution of the problems easier to swallow because you realize the other person on the other end is also a train guy or gal.

Finally, there is used.  I don't buy used generally just because I don't do it.  But for other people it works well and it certainly offers an additional channel of product.

The broader point about this is that this is a great forum but one issue here is that the discussion is always about the newest, latest, greatest, and in many cases the most expensive new toy.  That, I think, creates the perception that the hobby is only for those with deep wallets and that the hobby is all about consumption.  It's easy to get caught up in it.  I think it is important, from a personal balance perspective, not to get caught up in it.  It's not normal to be constantly buying new trains -- it starts to resemble a hoarding behavior.  I think if you buy less, it will follow that you will have less problems with new locomotives.  And there is a lot more to this hobby than that.  Last night one of my sons wanted to run one of my old MPC GP20s.  This locomotive is nothing to write home about from the perspective of the high end enthusiasts here, but since it was a gift to me that my mom picked out for me in the mid-1970s, I cherish the locomotive and love that my kids love it too, growling E unit and metal stamped handrails out front and rear in all their glory. 

Long way of saying if you enjoy what you have a bit more instead of focusing on what's next, these discussions may assume less importance and you'll get greater enjoyment from this terrific hobby. 

Look at the cost of a dummy unit these days .  That comes with a shell, chassis, trucks, wheels, and manual couplers.  No lights, smoke, sounds, or motors; doesn't get more basic. I'm pretty sure the profit is in the electronics.  I don't want to sound like an arm chair CEO, but also sure the real CEO's have a vision (no pun) and strategic planning for sustainability.  The used market is great and will only get better as us older guys move onto greener pastures. I will retire soon and be in the same boat with average Joe's, if that can even be defined anymore.

Rich    

The whole subject is about choice. We all appreciate that O gauge represents a lot of choices whether it's scale, hi-rail, tinplate, conventional, command control or variations in mash ups of these alternatives. 

I don't want variations of command control shoved at me as a single choice, or simply scale as a presumption thats what I want and yet when you cut away all the discussion and look at this, we have no control over any of this and this theme of "the future of the hobby" crops up like an alarm clock with regularity despite the fact it simply is what it is. It's not our decision beyond the pocket book. About 4 or 5 years ago I predicted the secondary market would gain in importance due to rising costs facing a niche market. I wish K-Line was still around to push the others and we still had that option rather than the similarities of products between the big three. But..it is what it is regardless of our opinions.

Yep, and I bet that low tech, poorly detailed loco from 1965 still runs today with all its original parts! Will the 2015 loco still be running (with all its original parts) 50 years from now? And will you be able to get parts for it in 50 years? Might be easier to get parts for the '65 than the '05!  LOL

Mark me down as another postwar, conventional, tight wad, cheap skate O gauger!

My original post ( I feel) is directed at the Middle market. Huge radius curves requirement is a killer for many of us. I would love to see more quality offerings in this range. Cost escalation, is an ambient factor. I realize it's 2015. We won't be seeing $100-300 locomotives as a target for people like me, as far as aesthetic appeal.

My main gripe (if you will) is with the lack of Product targeted at people like me.

Able to handle 031/036 curves, good detail, legacy or TMCC and reasonable cost (not necessarily cheap).

Like I said in my first post. The Lionel Berkshires based on the K-Line Design, went from able to handle 031 curves to now requiring 054. Likewise newer Diesels are requiring 054 curves. Those are killers for me in the market place.

This doesn't even begin to cover the rolling stock escalation. I don't begrudge those that can live with that. God, Bless 'em. They have a lot more room for running than many of us. To which I say Bravo.

I guess my target here is to seek Lionel's consideration of making more product targeted at people like me. (Sort of a selfish wish on my part.)

This isn't directed at the MTH crowd. Yes, I know there are tons of product by MTH. But, I am just pushing for more targeted product that I can purchase and operate on my layout. Its a huge hole, I don't want to see Lionel (or any manufacturer) lose huge opportunities because there is a perceived loss of sight on tis market. Which to me is the core when one looks at the overall history of the Hobby.

To some extent, what you are asking may be a contradiction in terms in this marketplace.  Most folks who want the highly detailed (read more expensive) scale models are willing to pay the higher dollar involved and, except for small locos, expect to need more than O31 curves for middle size or larger locos.  So asking for relatively medium priced locos that will navigate O31 but also have high levels of detail is perhaps not a large or even medium sized market niche for any manufacturer.  Lionel is known for preferring larger product runs (1,000 +) while MTH has been willing to go with much smaller product runs (100+).  You can be sure that if Lionel thought the market niche you are describing would be profitable, they'd be making lots of stuff that meets your description.  The fact that they're not suggests they do not agree, at least at present.

I agree with everyone who wants nice locomotives that can navigate 027-036 but to be fair MTH has affordable RK steamers under 450.00 which is the max I will spend on a steamer or set of diesels.  I purchase most of my locomotives used right here in the OGR buy/sale/trade forum and I have got tremendous deals. The MTH RK steamers in their starter sets are great and can be bought for 250.00 or under for a PS 3.0.  They are good fairly powerful locomotives. As much as I love Lionel their starter set steamers are weak sauce with a lot of plastic and really small motors. It would be great if they put their Lion Chief plus locos into their starter sets and made them compatible with conv/LC+/TMCC/Legacy. It is probably not feasible but at least put them in their starter sets.  I have one TMCC Lionel Hudson that isn't from a starter set. All my other steamers excluding PW ones are from MTH because they are affordable.  Here are two tips when you want something and it is not financially within your reach at the current time.  Have patience and keep your eyes open.  I was looking for a K-Line CZ 15" observation car for more than 3 years. I had seen them on Ebay but I can't afford 150.00 or higher for one car. Through patience I got said car brand new off Dash auctions for 54.00 and a TMCC Mikado off the forum here for 150.00. So keep your eyes open and be patient.

Who is driving what's available?. It's the same the old chicken or the egg merry-go-round. I haven't seen any formal polling of who wants what by anyone. I doubt you could get a consensus. I also don't believe that the manufacturers have a pulse on what anyone wants by talking to a ridiculously small number of folks at shows. Do we have to have cars with GPS? It's called up-selling and more is better drives itself. It defines consensus. It has little to do with meeting needs, it creates them. Its a self fulfilling prophecy. 

It's all a matter of perspective and the forums/magazines add to the altered perspective.  After a brief stint in retail management, I have high confidence that all of the manufacturers are well aware of which units sell best in the various markets (LHS, wholesalers, direct sales, etc).  They probably don't track the secondary market though are probably aware just from general interest.  I trip over new in box Lionel starter sets everytime I walk through my LHS.  I have never seen a high end Lionel loco in person at any of the LHSs in my area.  They may not sell well at brick and mortar outlets.  I don't know because I don't have access to the sales data.  The various train magazines certainly focus on the latest and greatest because it's cool stuff.  The forums are usually abuzz about the newest model or feature because that's human nature to focus on those things.  It makes good business sense for the manufacturers to focus on their top of the line models and let the customers decide if they want to go with a lower priced model while sacrificing features and benefits.