Lionel GS-1 Hybrid #4470 (2031411) Issues????

Yikes!

Oops they did it again. Love that quality control.

Darned shame about those train number indicators. Since it is a passenger locomotive, there should be either a train number indicated without illuminated class lights, or "X4470" with white class lights. Those blank train number indicators REALLY stand out!

Is the string to the bell missing too? Looks like there's a spot, unless it was air powered?

Adding numbers is fairly trivial. Smokebox fronts would be a bit more involved to rectify. In any event a engine at this price point should not have any of these issues.

Pete

@tom21pa posted:

Is the string to the bell missing too? Looks like there's a spot, unless it was air powered?

Those bells were air powered.

What the heck

@Norton posted:

Adding numbers is fairly trivial. Smokebox fronts would be a bit more involved to rectify. In any event a engine at this price point should not have any of these issues.

Pete

I can fix most of above issues....but I don’t want to fix the number boards. I never enjoyed doing number boards when I repaint models.

@Bruk posted:

I can fix most of above issues....but I don’t want to fix the number boards. I never enjoyed doing number boards when I repaint models.

In the catalog the number boards are blank too. So I'm sure they'll stick u on that

I take a photo and print it on transparency.  Fairly painless.

Pete

@Norton posted:

I take a photo and print it on transparency.  Fairly painless.

Pete

This is the most I done for Lit # Boards. These were painted white, then I applied dry transfer decals.

@tom21pa posted:

In the catalog the number boards are blank too. So I'm sure they'll stick u on that

But that just makes no sense.  And the boiler face is bigger than the smoke box?  For real?

I am starting to regret my order and I haven’t even received it yet. Sigh.  

Brut,

    Are you sure they are not in the box? Maybe fell off during shipping. I just rewatched Eric Segel’s video and his pilot model had a blank white face on the board. No numbers as his was a pilot model. Give Lionel a call if they are not in the box.

JohnB

I hate to ask, but is the road number correct?

It's my understanding that there were only 14 in all, 10 for the SP (4400 - 4409) and 4 for the T&NO (700 -703) 4407 was a GS1, so in a class of 14 it's unlikely that there would have been a 4470 unless it was part of renumbering program. Maybe an SP expert (Hot Water?) can shed some light here.

- Crank

Apparently the Vision Line is now blurred . Just like everything else.

I'm waiting for the "hey these are just toys" , "all manufacturers have issues" and "we should be grateful that Lionel is still in business building trains for us" posts.

Does this have the Bluetooth capability with the new LVC?

Maybe with the LVC you could ask it where the **** the number boards are?

@JohnB posted:

Brut,

    Are you sure they are not in the box? Maybe fell off during shipping. I just rewatched Eric Segel’s video and his pilot model had a blank white face on the board. No numbers as his was a pilot model. Give Lionel a call if they are not in the box.

JohnB

No, they are on the model. They are just clear lenses.

@Eccentric Crank posted:

I hate to ask, but is the road number correct?

It's my understanding that there were only 14 in all, 10 for the SP (4400 - 4409) and 4 for the T&NO (700 -703) 4407 was a GS1, so in a class of 14 it's unlikely that there would have been a 4470 unless it was part of renumbering program. Maybe an SP expert (Hot Water?) can shed some light here.

- Crank

The loco number is correct. The GS-1’s were renumbered in the 40s after they recieved some modernization which is how Lionel chose to model these. Robert Church’s SP Daylight Locomotives book is a wonderful resource.

As for the indicator board, this is really annoying. Seems like they used the same inserts as the pilot model. I too hate doing number boards. The oversized smokebox front is also pretty lame. It can be shaved down but then has to be painted...

I can’t say I’m too pleased that there will be issues to fix on a $2200 loco when I get mine. Otherwise it does look very handsome.

The number boards on the pilot versions don't have numbers is what Lionel said only gs 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 have numbers on them.

@Bruk posted:

No, they are on the model. They are just clear lenses.

Brut,

     Sorry I missed that............I am not a speed reader but am a skip reading.

I did re-look at the catalog and all the GS 1 engines have the same blank boards. The description mentions the the GS 1 engines were re-numbered up to four times during their careers. Don’t know why they are blank maybe Hot Water can comment I am not an expert.

Are the hinges broken on the front boiler plate? In particular the upper hinge? Eric’s video did not mention any issues but it does not look right to me.

In any event good luck with the engine it is very attractive.

JohnB

I just did a quick google search of the GS1 and it appears that some of the locomotives had blank number plates and the cab number is written on the sides of the headlight, just like the Lionel one. Maybe this is the photograph Lionel based their model on? It has a Vanderbilt tender as well.

From what I've read, the T&NO GS-1's became SP's 4470's in 1953.

Rusty

JohnB - Just a reminder for future reference, his name is spelled Bruk (lol) - although the man is a wonderful Brute when he alters various engines.  ☺️😜

Have a great day!

PS - I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt that it's because the 't' on the keyboard is very close to the 'k', but then I checked my keyboard and unless you've got deformed hands, that wasn't the reason for you misspelling his name (lol).

@RJ I posted:

I just did a quick google search of the GS1 and it appears that some of the locomotives had blank number plates and the cab number is written on the sides of the headlight, just like the Lionel one. Maybe this is the photograph Lionel based their model on? It has a Vanderbilt tender as well.

That may be the case, but this was not clearly written anywhere.....

@2012ford posted:

The number boards on the pilot versions don't have numbers is what Lionel said only gs 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 have numbers on them.

Where is this written?

It was in one of lionel's videos

The boiler front misfit is troubling. I would have thought it's possibly the result of mixing old and new tooling but for the brass hybrid construction, which I assume is all new. Or maybe there's been a common boiler front made for other models and it doesn't match this particular boiler shell.

I have only seen one close up of a Daylight 4449 model's boiler front, which is on AmericanOGauge Instagram from a couple of days back. I can't post the photo as I don't know whose it is but the front did not seem to be a misfit on that model.

With no numbers on the number boards, the question is can you turn the lights off. Looks pretty dumb being lit with no numbers.

Pete

@RJ I posted:

I just did a quick google search of the GS1 and it appears that some of the locomotives had blank number plates and the cab number is written on the sides of the headlight, just like the Lionel one. Maybe this is the photograph Lionel based their model on? It has a Vanderbilt tender as well.

It should be understood that those "blank number boards" on the Lionel model are in fact "Train Number Indicators", and in prototype practice would have a TRAIN NUMBER showing in the indicators, no mater whether passenger or freight. The locomotive number would NOT normally be showing in those "Indicators", unless the train was an extra, i.e. "X4470". The number in the headlight as well as painted on the sides of the cab reflect the locomotive road number. To my knowledge the Southern Pacific was the only railroad that used train numbers shown in those number boards, well into the 1960s (diesel era).

Checking Guy Dunscomb's "bible", "A Century of Southern Pacific Steam" shows a number of GS1s including two as they were delivered. Both have no numbers on the boards. Two others have train 16 and 19 numbers, centered on the boards. If you were to make your own the 4 positions would be black, 1, 9, black.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Checking Guy Dunscomb's "bible", "A Century of Southern Pacific Steam" shows a number of GS1s including two as they were delivered. Both have no numbers on the boards. Two others have train 16 and 19 numbers, centered on the boards. If you were to make your own the 4 positions would be black, 1, 9, black.

Pete

Correct. The practice on the Southern Pacific RR was to ONLY have a train number showing in the Train Number Indicators when the locomotive was ON THE TRAIN. As soon as the locomotive was uncoupled from its train, the Fireman was to remove any numbers from the indicators and place the respective numbers (they were made if thin steel sheets) and place them inside the number holding box, mounted inside each Train Number Indicator. There are many photos of light locomotives in terminals, that have just come off a train, or just about to couple up to its train, with NO NUMBERS SHOWING in the Train Number Indicators.

Pete

The number boards are powered by track power.  There are no switches or controls to turn them off.  I like your idea of the flimsy paper for numbers and will use some fonts from word to put a train number on ours.  Overall I really like the engine sounds and detail and glad we purchased it.

Greg

Doing replacement number boards is a bore although digital photography and photo-resolution printers make the numbers themselves less problematic than applying dry transfers (or decals). However, almost no home printer will give you a pure white background on a transparency even if printing on plain paper achieves nearly the same result. I mention this because I notice that the clear lenses on Bruk's model appear to be scored or molded for five square number panels. So these must be the stock lenses with no printing applied, and they look awfully bright with no color/covering on them.

So after talking with Dave it was intentional for the clear number boards for the same reason Hot Water explained above. I just missed the memo. Dave has two GS models including a 4470 as mine. He said later he will add his own numbers. I will do the same

So hands off to them.

I will get with Highball Graphics and see if he is interested in offering a water transfer decal sheet with all the numbers for the available GS locos. Including random Train Numbers.

For the boiler face. The screw might be loose that holds it on and ill go in and adjust accordingly.  

Many thanks to Dave’s quick help.

Thanks for the info Bruk.
I’ve always wanted a train manufacturer to do customizable or changeable train indicator boards on steam locomotives. I guess Lionel had a similar idea but didn’t quite execute it completely. Would have been a nice touch if the model included “extra” boards as well as number boards for a few of SP’s passenger trains that GS-1’s could be commonly found at the head of.

@Bruk posted:

So after talking with Dave it was intentional for the clear number boards for the same reason Hot Water explained above. I just missed the memo. Dave has two GS models including a 4470 as mine. He said later he will add his own numbers. I will do the same

I will get with Highball Graphics and see if he is interested in offering a water transfer decal sheet with all the numbers for the available GS locos. Including random Train Numbers.

I would suggest researching train numbers of some "not so famous" SP passenger trains, that those locomotives probably handled, i.e. NOT #98/#99. I believe they were used for commuter trains out of San Francisco for a time, but I don't know if that would have been after their renumbering. Then there could have been any number of second class and third class freight trains.

For the boiler face. The screw might be loose that holds it on and ill go in and adjust accordingly.  

Many thanks to Dave’s quick help.

Bruk before you or anyone order decals take a black decal and stick it to the number board. I believe decals are too thin and will let too much light through. If you have any other engines with number boards like UP you will note they use paint not a decal. I think cut vinyl would be a better option.

As for train numbers there are pictures of GS-1s with train numbers 16 and 19. No idea what they were but I am sure some hardcore SP modelers have a reference somewhere if it even matters.

Pete

Trains 19 and 20 were the Klamath. I’m not sure about 16. Off hand, I’ve also seen photos of GS-1’s pulling no 5/6 the Argonaut, 69/70 the Coaster, and the SF peninsula commute trains. There are a number of other secondary trains that these locomotives would look great pulling

@Norton posted:

Bruk before you or anyone order decals take a black decal and stick it to the number board. I believe decals are too thin and will let too much light through. If you have any other engines with number boards like UP you will note they use paint not a decal. I think cut vinyl would be a better option.

As for train numbers there are pictures of GS-1s with train numbers 16 and 19.

Train #16 was the "West Coast", a westbound train between Sacramento and Davis (apparently originating  east Sacramento, and then turned northward at Davis). Train #19 was the westbound "Klamath", apparently originating in Klamath Falls, OR, southward to Davis, CA, where it turned westward for Oakland Pier (for San Francisco).

My information comes from an October 19, 1947 Employee Timetable.

No idea what they were but I am sure some hardcore SP modelers have a reference somewhere if it even matters.

Yup,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,hardcore!

Pete

@Norton posted:

Bruk before you or anyone order decals take a black decal and stick it to the number board. I believe decals are too thin and will let too much light through. If you have any other engines with number boards like UP you will note they use paint not a decal. I think cut vinyl would be a better option.

As for train numbers there are pictures of GS-1s with train numbers 16 and 19. No idea what they were but I am sure some hardcore SP modelers have a reference somewhere if it even matters.

Pete

If I could id use a vinyl stencil, I would paint them. But the vinyl cutters can’t cut that small from experience.