Lionel H10 Audio Cutout Issue Fixed

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suspect many people with the new Legacy H10 know about the audio cutout issue when you run with maximum labor at max volume, especially if you then introduce the whistle sound.  The audio board overheats because the drive level of the audio was set too loud for the board with maximum sounds.  Lionel was willing to fix them, but there was an issue.  Lionel was saying they were really backed up with the ID fix and the Challengers coming back.  I decided to take the easy way out.  I dropped a 16 ohm fat boy speaker into the tender to replace the 8 ohm speaker.  This, of course, reduced the volume about a measured 3db, which was what was going to happen if Lionel reprogrammed the boards anyway.  Net result is I ran mine for half an hour with maximum labor sounds and tossed in the whistle, bell, and crew talk freely to try to push it over the edge.  It never missed a beat.  If you have the H10 and don't want to wait several months for the sound card reprogramming, this is another way to address the issue.

What a simple fix to an on going and annoying problem. 👍👍

Once I had identified the issue and the cause, I thought about this a bunch.  I have a repair to bring to York of one of these, so I figured if I could verify this fix, I could get his running as well.  Both of them made an extended voyage without any audio issues after the speaker swap.

Good stuff John.

Thanks for the information.

Please don’t hijack this thread turning it into another drawn out bashing. Thanks GRJ for always helping out with great solutions. 

Great solution GRJ. 

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...08155536&match=0

And there's the part number for the proper speaker, thanks Chuck!

If you wait for November, you get them half price at the annual Lionel parts sale.

interesting solution. Thinking the impedance  mismatch with the board reduces the current utput and prevents the board from shutting down and interrupting the sound output. 

I wouldn't call it a mismatch...

https://www.prosoundtraining.c.../impedance-matching/

The amplifier on the board is actually rated to drive anything from four ohms, but typically it's used with 8 ohms.  But yes, the 16 ohms lowers the load impedance of the load and draws less power.  It's not really a mismatch, just not working the board as hard as a lower impedance speaker.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

John, that's entirely up to you.  You can get an RMA from Lionel to reprogram them, but it's going to be a wait from what I understand.  I simply decided to go the path of least resistance, and I had some 16 ohm Fat Boy speakers on hand.  A quick swap of the speakers and all is well.

Not directly related, but, I had to send one of my ALCOs back after they reprogrammed it.  I asked Katie about turn around time for all repairs.  She told me they were getting caught up on the ALCOs and Challenger resulting in a 3 week turnaround.  That's about the best I have ever seen.

thanks John

ordered.

PS you should get a commission from Lionel.

Alan, I won't hold my breath for my commission.

Gunrunner John,

When you run a tech class, I want to attend. Mom is ready for a good road trip.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I'm a lousy instructor, I yell too much.

Many thanks to GRJ and CJack.

So part number https://www.lionelsupport.com/...08155536&match=0 630-8155-536 is the one?

GRJ, to get the speaker installed, did you have to do any custom fitting or modification, soldering??

That's the speaker Rick.  It's an exact mechanical fit for the existing 8 ohm speaker.  Remove the four screws, pull the old one out, move the two wires, put the four screws back in.  Job done.

Thanks GRJ!  Ordered it today; would rather pay the $ and fix it myself. 

I got the Allegheny version with the tall tender - lots of head room.

Did you have to do any soldering of the wires?

Thanks to CJack too!

Yep, you have to remove the wires from the 8 ohm speaker and move them to the 16 ohm speaker.  They're big terminals, shouldn't be a problem.

Good to know about the soldering; will use the HAAKO soldering station set to 550, heat sinks on the terminals.

No heatsink needed for the speaker, you won't damage it with that heat.  Just solder the wires on.  What I do is generously tin the speaker terminals, than just put the wire on the terminal and heat.  There's no stress on the terminals, so a mechanical connection is not important, just a good solder bond.

GRJ, thanks for the tips!  Tinning 2 objects before soldering them together priceless; makes it go easier along with: having the right temp, right soldering iron tips; right solder; amount of time heating the objects together (some say 3 seconds); tip cleaning sponge; learned all this via this forum and YouTube videos.

Pardon my hijacking the thread with soldering issues; but, now, soldering is a challenge with my senior unsteady hands.

I generally use a somewhat hot iron so that I can get on and off fast. With a cooler iron, you have to stay on the terminal longer. Usually takes about a second. The heat doesn’t travel fast enough to heat something I don’t want to heat.

Soldering is something we used to learn in school. 

Everyone should know how; like anything else, it's not difficult once you learn how it's done. 

Mark in Oregon

New speaker showed up today - ordered last Saturday; good turnaround!  Noticed that the 2 terminals look like they are already tinned with solder.  Will install sometime this month.  Thanks to GRJ!

Rick, tin them again anyway.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Rick, tin them again anyway.

Will do!!

After talking to Lionel Service, Dean suggested that I send the H-10 engines in for service of the sound issues.  Aaron did not know the specifics other than Dean would not send the 16 ohm speakers for my three H-10 engines, and preferred that the engines come in for service.  The 16 ohm speaker is not the Lionel recommended fix for the H-10.  

My 6-85387 Western Allegheny is currently in for a burned out Cab Light and now the sound revision.  I asked Aaron if there were other issues Lionel was looking for, but he did not know.  He stated that the preferred repair is to send the engine into Lionel. He issued RAs for my 6-85386 Pennsylvania West and 6-84953 Pennsylvania Coal Hauler engine.

Lionel will have four of my engines at one time.  The 1931260 Challenger is scheduled to be worked on next week and the 6-85387 Western Allegheny H-10 a little later.  I am sending the other two H-10 because there may be other issues they are looking at.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I have the 84948 Pennsylvania #1288.  Since I have a seasonal layout, I have only run this engine for maybe 10 minutes (even though I've had it for a year).  As a result, I have not experienced the problem yet.  But based on this thread, I called Lionel to see about getting an RA# to get it fixed proactively since this is now a known issue.  (This thread states that Lionel wants us to send them in instead of replacing the speaker).  However, Lionel will not issue an RA to me, since I have not had the overheating occur personally.  I explained the very minimal run time, but to no avail.

I'm worried that in the future when I do get a chance to run it more extensively, I will experience the problem, and by then the engine will be well past the warranty.  At that point, Lionel won't fix it for me either.  What to do?

Just put down a loop of track.

Fire it up, turn the volume up full, and then use the brake slider to maximize the chuff, running it on around speed step 15-20.  Once you have the brake slider set, spin the throttle until you get maximum labor (loud and deep).  As it runs, toss in a lot of horn blowing.  Within a few minutes, that should heat the board up enough for it to cut out.

I got the 16ohm speaker from Lionel parts; not that expensive - $8.50; I am going with GRJ's fix; would rather do that than take chances with shipping it.

FWIW, I torture tested mine for half an hour with max chuff labor and lots of whistle, didn't miss a beat.

You're right, I could set up a loop of track temporarily and try to create the conditions for the failure.  But ... I decided to be pro-active, and went ahead and ordered the speaker replacement.  I just finished installing the new speaker, and now don't have to worry about fighting with Lionel down the road when the official warranty period has well past.  Thank you for the help.